Mary Jane Watson/Parker Appreciation Thread 2018

[Inversed]

"Slightly introverted" and "Spectacular MJ" don't feel like they should go together .

That's why I said the introverted vs. extroverted were the main differences between the two ^^; I still feel personality wise they're both fairly similar, just their execution that makes them so different.

I enjoyed SMLMJ. However that Mary Jane version wasn't my favorite. Not close (in fact she falls just below the mid section of favorite MJs). When I think back to that series some positives but also negatives jump mout to me. One issue that made me enraged with the MJ was the one showcasing how she loves to toy with boys even though in the end she hurts them and she doesn't care. I hated that issue.

Really? I don't remember it being that bad. I know when she was doing her "carefree" act she started flirting with everyone, but it never seemed like toying or intentionally hurting them. Harry was the one who was toying with girls and not caring about hurting them in the end.

Also I'm not a big fan of Em Jay. However she's getting better and I'm also going to be honest...she is alot like 616 MJ during her beginning earlier days written. I'm a fan of many characters but many times the bad or lackluster is faded out/glossed over while holding onto just the good. Early days MJ outside of her iconic character intro shot there wasn't alot at the time going for her with me. She loved to party and be center of attention and be catty (plus I know they reckoned that she was secretly helping Peter knowing his secret by wanting to go to the Rhino attack but considering when that was written she didn't 616 early MJ isn't using common sense to the point she didn't that agian and Spider-man/Peter had to scold her for it after saving her).

From that I can see Em Jay and 616 MJ being variants. That during their youth they cared only about themselves and having the attention. 616 MJ has had 50+ years of character developments to move past that phase while Em Jay has now 4 years and yet slowly moving at a decent pace of development. Looking over the issue numbers to when each of the positives stand outs happen for 616 MJ and putting that in perspective in years today (12 issues per year unless a series has a double issue per month like current Spider-man) if we start listing them down we might see a HUGE time gaps. With the level of patience general public and fans have for characters nowadays a big advantage for 616 MJ currently has over others is a Wiki page where a person can absorb tons of stand out info written by a fan (I usually find issues MJ appeared but did nothing or just plays up her party girl attitude isn't covered that much because it's doesn't make a impact or importance to the 616 MJ of now for people to know or we want to let people know usually). 50+ years compiled on one wiki page to be disgusted. Em Jay isn't high on my favorites (mid range currently but was much lower) but if she has the time and the writers continue her own path of developments and possibly stand outs scenes in the positive then she too can rise to a higher level (my top favorite MJs are the one who balance mature and fun and shows cares for others vs the self).

Em Jay at first the beginning didn't bother me because it being a different universe, I'm fine with them taking whatever direction they want. And I liked that by issue 9, when she figured out that Gwen is Spider-Woman, is the moment when she stopped acting really selfish and really grew as a character, and by the Mary Janes special issue, she became really good and I was really enjoying her. Also she may be the first real bi/gay MJ, so that's a plus

[Kevinroc]

And who's to say Zendaya's MJ doesn't have the potential to grow as appealing or more appealing than 616 MJ? Well, "potential" is the keyword but as I said, I think she deserves another chance as they barely gave her one in the first film.

I still think a non-Mary Jane MJ is dumb. Like they were too afraid of the backlash caused by casting an person of color to play the iconic Spider-Man love interest so they went out of their way to create this situation that she both is and isn't the character.

It's like the "Robin" thing from the Nolan Batman films except this character is going to be way more prominent.

Uh... 3.3 M is not THAT big when we are talking about greater public perception. Even discounting MCU's MJ, I'm pretty sure Kirsten Dunst's version will still be the most dominant "traditional Mary Jane" impression, especially with the upcoming Into the Spider-Verse movie homaging that role in some ways. Video games still don't have the global reach that superhero blockbuster tentpoles have.

3.3 M in three days. You do know that number is not only higher than the comics, but is also only going to go up as we continue moving forward.

Also, video games are big business.

Also she may be the first real bi/gay MJ, so that's a plus

Judd Winick's Exiles featured a Spider-MJ that was queer. (She only appeared in a few issues, and was killed rather unceremoniously in Spider-Verse.)

[Confuzzled]

I still think a non-Mary Jane MJ is dumb. Like they were too afraid of the backlash caused by casting an person of color to play the iconic Spider-Man love interest so they went out of their way to create this situation that she both is and isn't the character.

It's like the "Robin" thing from the Nolan Batman films except this character is going to be way more prominent.

In which case they can't have it both ways. If the character is continued to be called "MJ", more and more people will just assume she's a new take on Mary Jane. Maybe if/once the partnership with the MCU ends, Sony may even push her portrayal closer to that of traditional Mary Jane.

3.3 M in three days. You do know that number is not only higher than the comics, but is also only going to go up as we continue moving forward.

Also, video games are big business.

But I still doubt it is going to eclipse Kirsten Dunst's portrayal in terms of awareness. Especially with an upcoming theatrical movie prominently referring to that role.

Judd Winick's Exiles featured a Spider-MJ that was queer. (She only appeared in a few issues, and was killed rather unceremoniously in Spider-Verse.)

Exiles Spider-MJ deserved better.

[Kevinroc]

In which case they can't have it both ways. If the character is continued to be called "MJ", more and more people will just assume she's a new take on Mary Jane. Maybe if/once the partnership with the MCU ends, Sony may even push her portrayal closer to that of traditional Mary Jane.

They're trying to have it both ways. That's why I don't like the way they've handled this. They should have just said she was "Mary Jane" and ignored anyone who had a problem with it.

But I still doubt it is going to eclipse Kirsten Dunst's portrayal in terms of awareness. Especially with an upcoming theatrical movie prominently referring to that role.

We don't know how prominent MJ is in "Into the Spider-Verse." (Also, we don't know how big that movie is going to be.)

Exiles Spider-MJ deserved better.

Agreed.

[Inversed]

3.3 M in three days. You do know that number is not only higher than the comics, but is also only going to go up as we continue moving forward.

Also, video games are big business.

Yeah, the game is an incredibly big deal, so many people are playing it or have heard of it, and considering I wouldn't be surprised if Into The Spider-Verse's MJ is just a very minor role, the game is what alot of people are going to be most familiar with her nowadays. And everyone has been loving her portrayal and her relationship & interactions with Spider-Man, so that is what's most important.

Judd Winick's Exiles featured a Spider-MJ that was queer. (She only appeared in a few issues, and was killed rather unceremoniously in Spider-Verse.)

Oh yeah that's right, forgot about that, and didn't realize she was killed in Spider-Verse. At least then Em Jay is the first who is a fairly important supporting character.

[Frontier]

TBF, nobody really cares about the comics and the MCU is how people know about these characters.

Y'know, it would be kind of weird to think that most people will now think Flash Thompson is a scrawny rich kid and Peter Parker's best friend is Ganke .

And who's to say Zendaya's MJ doesn't have the potential to grow as appealing or more appealing than 616 MJ? Well, "potential" is the keyword but as I said, I think she deserves another chance as they barely gave her one in the first film.

I'm not going to deny the potential of Michelle's character growth, but I just don't see that as a positive if she's not really Mary Jane.

Uh... 3.3 M is not THAT big when we are talking about greater public perception. Even discounting MCU's MJ, I'm pretty sure Kirsten Dunst's version will still be the most dominant "traditional Mary Jane" impression, especially with the upcoming Into the Spider-Verse movie homaging that role in some ways. Video games still don't have the global reach that superhero blockbuster tentpoles have.

Well "traditional" to a certain extent. I think if Dunst's MJ had been more traditional her role would've been better remembered then it was in the Raimi movies.

Em Jay at first the beginning didn't bother me because it being a different universe, I'm fine with them taking whatever direction they want. And I liked that by issue 9, when she figured out that Gwen is Spider-Woman, is the moment when she stopped acting really selfish and really grew as a character, and by the Mary Janes special issue, she became really good and I was really enjoying her. Also she may be the first real bi/gay MJ, so that's a plus

I think the problem with Em Jay is that she was around during a time when Mary Jane was being marginalized or just cut out of the books entirely, so people had a problem with the most prominent depiction of her at the moment a very shallow and kind of mean interpretation of the character.

I also don't think she really got to grow as a character until the issue focused on the Mary Jane's. Before then she was just constantly complaining or pointing out to the rest of the band at how Gwen was Spider-Woman.

I think she's fine for what she is but she'll never be one of my favorite versions of MJ.

Yeah, the game is an incredibly big deal, so many people are playing it or have heard of it, and considering I wouldn't be surprised if Into The Spider-Verse's MJ is just a very minor role, the game is what alot of people are going to be most familiar with her nowadays. And everyone has been loving her portrayal and her relationship & interactions with Spider-Man, so that is what's most important.

I think the important thing about her role in Into the Spider-Verse is that she's being displayed as Peter's lover and as someone very important to him and his motivation to get back home in the movie.

Not Emma Stone's Gwen Stacy, but a more traditional version of Mary Jane. I think that's an important thing to let sink in.

Granted, if she turns out to be a reporter ...

[Inversed]

I think the problem with Em Jay is that she was around during a time when Mary Jane was being marginalized or just cut out of the books entirely, so people had a problem with the most prominent depiction of her at the moment a very shallow and kind of mean interpretation of the character.

I also don't think she really got to grow as a character until the issue focused on the Mary Jane's. Before then she was just constantly complaining or pointing out to the rest of the band at how Gwen was Spider-Woman.

I think she's fine for what she is but she'll never be one of my favorite versions of MJ.

To be fair, I would heavily guarantee it wasn't Latour's intention to write Em Jay like that to represent the character in a bad way, just to have someone for Gwen and the bandmates to bicker with. And yeah once they started to give more focus to her she was able to turn around alot as a character. She's not one of the best interpretations, but a good one for her universe.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, that series was just completely wonderful and honestly pretty underrated now. Each issue is packed with so much story, all the characters were so engaging, it probably handled relationship drama better than any other series I've read in a long time, the drama never felt too forced. McNeever did a great job with all that, and Miyazawa's art is perfection as always. Even with the rushed ending, the conclusion still felt satisfied. Was really disappointed Terry Moore's sequel series didn't continue the story and instead went for a weird reboot/remake.

I have the two omnibus editions of SMLMJ, and they are some of the best comic collections I have. Just such a wonderful combination of writing and art. I have the whole Moore series as floppies, and several of them are signed by Moore and Rousseau, but I just don't prize them very much.

You gotta read MJ's whole history up until at least 1987. She has the best arc of all the supporting characters sans possibly Harry

Part of my wants to, but part of me just really doesn't find the 70s art and writing appealing. I feel bad about it, but every time I try to read them, they don't work for me, unless recontextualized like in Fraction/Larocca's Annual.

The height of SMLMJ was when there was a love triangle between Gwen and Peter and MJ like in the Silver Age but it subverted things and made it actually way more compelling.

Rather than the (yeah we gotta admit...not exactly PC) 'two girls compete over a guy' trope that was old even in the 1960s, the triangle was about how yeah two girls both liked this same guy and he liked them both but it was made more complicated by the fact that the two girls liked one another and one of them didn't want to actually hurt the other, so she broke her own heart out of what she percieved as the morally right thing to do and what followed was THE best example of MJ's party girl facade ever. I still remember that scene where she is removing her make up and slowly breaking down.

How did Peter not treat MCU Liz not very well? He didn't take her for granted or take advantage of her or unjustifiably ignore her. He ditched her on their date for the greater good.

I will say I feel so sorry for Laura Harrier. She had a far bigger and more significant role in the movie but Zendaya was on every poster and she wasn't. And frankly I found her far more charismatic than Zendaya's Michelle.

Frankly I say let all the high school supporting characters be OCs with their own arcs that play out this trilogy and then we can faze them out and reintroduce the classic characters again when Peter hits collage.

I really love all of the arcs of SMLMJ, but the arc where MJ gives Peter up was so effective. I'm still incredibly bummed that Marvel didn't let McKeever do his miniseries where Firestar returns and Peter/MJ are dating.

I probably should have said that the writing didn't treat Liz very well in Homecoming. I COMPLETELY agree that Laura Harrier was much more likeable and interesting than Zendaya in Homecoming. I know it's mostly a writing and directing thing, but I think it is a big bummer.

Also regarding SMLMJ I feel like people don't really appreciate what that series achieved.

We gotta remember, the early-mid 2000s was a different landscape for comics. Digital wasn't really a thing. Female leads had a harder time getting a solo-series. None superhero books had an even harder time making headway. And a high school teen romance series was (and to a certain extent still is) a basically toxic phrase within the comic book community akin to like the Titanic being regarded as trash because it too was a romance story. Oh yeah and AUs not labelled 'Ultimate' anything struggled too.

SMLMJ was ALL those things and it lasted for 2 minis and 20+ issues, which might not seem a lot especially by the standards of back then, but honestly given all the handicaps the series had via it's innate premise the fact that it got that much material in the first place is akin to like if Spider-Gwen ran 50 issues now.

The numbers SMLMJ got were staggeringly low. I still don't know why we got 20 issues, but I'm extremely grateful we did.

I enjoyed SMLMJ. However that Mary Jane version wasn't my favorite. Not close (in fact she falls just below the mid section of favorite MJs). When I think back to that series some positives but also negatives jump mout to me. One issue that made me enraged with the MJ was the one showcasing how she loves to toy with boys even though in the end she hurts them and she doesn't care. I hated that issue.

I really disagree that Mary Jane toyed with boys and hurts them. The only boys we see her hurting in SMLMJ are Harry and Peter, and she never intends to do that to either of them. You could maybe argue Flash, but she thought he was committed to Liz, so I don't think she was trying to lead him on at all. As for the one where Harry and MJ are being interviewed by the reporter (which is what I think you are talking about), we never see MJ doing anything but casual dates. We see that one guy deliberately trying to hurt MJ (enraging Harry - shades of the Pick Up Artist approach there), but she doesn't get involved, thankfully.

Uh... 3.3 M is not THAT big when we are talking about greater public perception. Even discounting MCU's MJ, I'm pretty sure Kirsten Dunst's version will still be the most dominant "traditional Mary Jane" impression, especially with the upcoming Into the Spider-Verse movie homaging that role in some ways. Video games still don't have the global reach that superhero blockbuster tentpoles have.

3.3 million is a little under 10 times what the highest selling ASM comics have sold this year (400k and 200k for #800 and the new #1), and I think it's creating a lot of great community. I'm 100% happy that the Dunst stuff is being remembered fondly/humorously by the Spider-Verse movie, though.

Yeah, the game is an incredibly big deal, so many people are playing it or have heard of it, and considering I wouldn't be surprised if Into The Spider-Verse's MJ is just a very minor role, the game is what alot of people are going to be most familiar with her nowadays. And everyone has been loving her portrayal and her relationship & interactions with Spider-Man, so that is what's most important.

Oh yeah that's right, forgot about that, and didn't realize she was killed in Spider-Verse. At least then Em Jay is the first who is a fairly important supporting character.

I hate the way they tried to "reduce" the number of characters in Spider-Verse.

I do think the video game is getting a lot of love for MJ, even if her gameplay is a bit controversially too boring/easy/frustrating.

Into the Spider-Verse[/I] is that she's being displayed as Peter's lover and as someone very important to him and his motivation to get back home in the movie.

I think Dunst has a lot of both positive and negative nostalgia directed to her work/the script she got. I mostly like her, even though I think she's not the best character ever.

Also, really happy about the idea that MJ is important to Peter in Spider-Verse. Very sweet.

[Spidercide]

So, where does this characterization, along with the other one your mentioned in your previous response to me, come from?

ASM #259, Parallel Lives, Untold Tales of Spider-Man #16 and also a very small slice from ASM Annual 2001 which included a photo of her in high school.

[Inversed]

I have the two omnibus editions of SMLMJ, and they are some of the best comic collections I have. Just such a wonderful combination of writing and art. I have the whole Moore series as floppies, and several of them are signed by Moore and Rousseau, but I just don't prize them very much.

I have the second omnibus and it is absolutely wonderful. Still searching for the first omnibus, I've found those, the digests, and the issues are so much harder to find than I would've expected.

I really love all of the arcs of SMLMJ, but the arc where MJ gives Peter up was so effective. I'm still incredibly bummed that Marvel didn't let McKeever do his miniseries where Firestar returns and Peter/MJ are dating.

It really is one of the best love triangles in any story. The only one I can think of that's really come close is Mark Waid's Archie. You just feel bad for all of them with the awkward situation, how much they all each care for each other, and especially with how MJ knows how much Gwen loves Peter and doesn't want to ruin that for her.

I didn't know that was gonna be a thing and now I'm really interested to see what that would've been. Not only because I REALLY wanna see them dating, but considering how the original series ended, I wonder how Firestar would've worked back into the story.

The numbers SMLMJ got were staggeringly low. I still don't know why we got 20 issues, but I'm extremely grateful we did.

It feels like the Digests were probably a big reason the series lasted so long, it is one of those series that feels intended to be read that way, especially with the manga aesthetic it already has. Not to mention it was much easier for the target audience to access the digests than the issues.

[Spidercide]

TBF, the MCU is an AU. It's even got its own number: Earth-199999



That would be the preferable way of "updating" the character instead of going with Lois Lane Jr.

There is a difference between an AU akin to a What If or for example Gotham by Gaslight wherein things are different for the sake of being different to the source by overlaying a central conceit or gimmick (e.g. Batman but the Victorian era) onto the original version and AUs born out of a sincere desire to adapt the source material into a new medium and/or adapt it as a modern take for the modern audience.


There is if you like a critical difference between Gotham by Gaslight and Batman the Animated Series or What if Flash Thompson had become Spider-Man and Spider-Man the Animated Series.



The MCU falls into the latter category. It isn’t different for the sake of it it’s different in attempts (sometimes successful, other times not successful) to take the source material’s essence and bring it to a new medium and a wider modern audience. So like they changed Civil War 2006 for the movie because it was never going to work in a film like it did in the comic. And this paid off great.




Here is the thing with PS4 MJ who I do love.


See what I said about adapting things to the new mediums? That kind of means you need to filter the source through the necessities of the new medium and project remit.



In a video game classic MJ was never going to work, hence whenever she showed up she was a damsel in distress.



Spidey PS4 found a great way to incorporate Peter’s normal life but unlike in the comics where those two things are usually separate but impact upon one another (Peter misses a date because he needed to be Spider-Man and his romantic woes drag on his mind when he is in action) and occasionally converge (his BFFs Dad is his villain and kidnaps his girlfriend) in a video game everything ultimately revolves around or feeds back into him as Spider-Man.


Essentially whilst in the comics (despite them maybe not always having equal panel time) Peter Parker’s life is EQUALLY important as Spider-Man’s. But in a video game where the entire point is to play it and engage in ACTivities and you get the most ACTivities when you are Spider-Man because he is an ACTion orientated character, Spider-Man’s life is MORE important than Peter’s. Hence why to all intents and purposes no video game prior to 2018 made you play as Peter Parker as a civilian.


Insomniac fixed that problem by having Peter’s normal life feed back into his life as Spider-Man, but things are still not equal.



This then raised the question of what to do with MJ because 99% of the time her character exists in Peter’s world and not Spider-Man’s and her life and job doesn’t connect with that side of his life. As it shouldn’t in a comic book you read.


But in a video game you play where everything actually does revolve around being Spider-man, you NEED her to connect to that side of his life. Hence why it made sense to extrapolate her USM job and transplant it into their gameverse, whilst not making her a Lois rip off and retaining MJ’s spirit as much as you can within the game’s universe and requirements.



Miles got the same treatment. You could never have Miles have his original backstory in that universe so they filtered him through the needs of the game and it’s universe and wound up with something that worked for that verse and retained as much of who Miles was as possible...and for my money made him more endearing.

TBF, nobody really cares about the comics and the MCU is how people know about these characters.



Said game sold 3.3 million copies within three days of its release. Since "Mary Jane" does not exist in the MCU, this game's reinterpretation of Mary Jane is going to be the dominant version in the mind of the public.

a) Good, better PS4 MJ than Michelle

b) Nobody would imply 0 but...everyone on these boards proves this not to be the case. Just because the general public percieve something to be a certain way doesn't make them right nor their misconception justified. According to the general public Gwen was awesome and loved Peter whilst MJ was a slut (Emma Stone literally said that on national TV) who only loved Spider-Man and did nothing but get kidnapped. **** according to the general public Deadpool was a bland boring Mortal Kombat rip off until like 2016.

[Spidercide]

And who's to say Zendaya's MJ doesn't have the potential to grow as appealing or more appealing than 616 MJ? Well, "potential" is the keyword but as I said, I think she deserves another chance as they barely gave her one in the first film.




Uh... 3.3 M is not THAT big when we are talking about greater public perception. Even discounting MCU's MJ, I'm pretty sure Kirsten Dunst's version will still be the most dominant "traditional Mary Jane" impression, especially with the upcoming Into the Spider-Verse movie homaging that role in some ways. Video games still don't have the global reach that superhero blockbuster tentpoles have.

Let us remember that the game is still raking up sales numbers and sales numbers alone do not account for fans of the game as one copy can be played by multiple people and many people can observe the game's storyline and like it even whilst not being players. I myself fell in love with the game's story and got the novel and comic book tie in and visual guide despite not even owning a PS4!

Appeal isn't really the discussion though is it? Emma Stone's Gwen was much more appealing than canon Gwen despite being only superficially like her. I thought we were talking about whether she was a representation of the character.

I enjoyed SMLMJ. However that Mary Jane version wasn't my favorite. Not close (in fact she falls just below the mid section of favorite MJs). When I think back to that series some positives but also negatives jump mout to me. One issue that made me enraged with the MJ was the one showcasing how she loves to toy with boys even though in the end she hurts them and she doesn't care. I hated that issue.

But...that is accurate to a younger Mary Jane. She kinda did that with Harry and Peter in the Silver Age.

Plus is it really a negative to portray a young teenager as flawed in this capacity?

I still think a non-Mary Jane MJ is dumb. Like they were too afraid of the backlash caused by casting an person of color to play the iconic Spider-Man love interest so they went out of their way to create this situation that she both is and isn't the character.

It's like the "Robin" thing from the Nolan Batman films except this character is going to be way more prominent.

Yup.


It is also part and parcel of an annoying trend in Hollywood movies this decade of doing stupid reveals of characters who at first don't seem to be the characters. Miranda Tate in Dark Knight Rises. Blofeld in Spectre. Kahn in Star Trek Into Darkness.


I was totally on board with Zendaya playing Mary Jane but if she's gonna be like this, **** if this is how she begins then I hope she isn't. Cast someone else to play the character properly, and sure why not make it another POC actress. Nothing about MJ requires her to be white so whoever can do the job best.


Also I hate that the movies and other media treat Spider-Man love interests as interchangeable or like those toys that you can swap out pieces from as opposed to recognizing there are specific traits to each of them.

3.3 M in three days. You do know that number is not only higher than the comics, but is also only going to go up as we continue moving forward.

Also, video games are big business.

Some Triple A games have budgets comparable to movies I believe.

Judd Winick's Exiles featured a Spider-MJ that was queer. (She only appeared in a few issues, and was killed rather unceremoniously in Spider-Verse.)

It's almost like Spider-Verse had an agenda or something considering multiple MJ's either die, see their spider love interests horribly die, become victims of some kind or in the case of Spider Woman as drawn by Greg Land wholly unnecesarilly get punched in the face....all sandwiched between Superior where MJ was the biggest ******* to Peter by the end of the story (then showed up just to call him an idiot in ASM #1) and Spider-Gwen's hyped launch featuring Em Jay as an unlikable diva generating much hate for her from reviews at the time.

In which case they can't have it both ways. If the character is continued to be called "MJ", more and more people will just assume she's a new take on Mary Jane. Maybe if/once the partnership with the MCU ends, Sony may even push her portrayal closer to that of traditional Mary Jane.



But I still doubt it is going to eclipse Kirsten Dunst's portrayal in terms of awareness. Especially with an upcoming theatrical movie prominently referring to that role.




Exiles Spider-MJ deserved better.

Video games are different now than in the 2000s.

Spidey PS4 was getting like movie posters and trailers, mega hype and Marvel Unlimited even promoted it.

They are starting to become dominant in the cultural zeitgeist in a way movies and TV are and this was only the first game. We will have DLCs, sequels, more tie-in materials too.


Remember BvS borrowed influence from the Arkham games and Spider-Man PS4 out the gate prepped the groundwork for their version of Spider-Man to have a life well beyond just that one game. He's got a novel, he's appearing in comics, his design was specified to make him a BRAND recognizable as Insomniac's specific version. The Arkham Batman got an animated movie and Injustice a comic book series and both had merchandise a plenty beyond that stuff.

Heck, hate to say it but it was the Arkham games that brought a mass awareness to Mark Hamill as the Joker and Conroy as Batman and the best takes on either. It wasn't that people weren't saying that about BTAS before, but their roles in those games made people more aware/reminded them of the show and between them insisted upon a more mass audience that those versions and that show were in fact THE best versions of those characters.

Part of my wants to, but part of me just really doesn't find the 70s art and writing appealing. I feel bad about it, but every time I try to read them, they don't work for me, unless recontextualized like in Fraction/Larocca's Annual.

Then (inspite of some of it's inaccuracies) read this essay series at least.


http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/WhyYo...JanePart1.html



I really love all of the arcs of SMLMJ, but the arc where MJ gives Peter up was so effective. I'm still incredibly bummed that Marvel didn't let McKeever do his miniseries where Firestar returns and Peter/MJ are dating.

I probably should have said that the writing didn't treat Liz very well in Homecoming. I COMPLETELY agree that Laura Harrier was much more likeable and interesting than Zendaya in Homecoming. I know it's mostly a writing and directing thing, but I think it is a big bummer.

The numbers SMLMJ got were staggeringly low. I still don't know why we got 20 issues, but I'm extremely grateful we did.

Yeah they were staggeringly low but that was due to all the context I mentioned.


It was a series that by it's innate nature should've died after issue #6 but defied that.


As for why it kept going it was likely due to the digests. Much like Spider-Girl, at that time all ages digests were being distributed at schools and book fares and other such places catering to or possessing a large pre-teen/young teen audience, the audience both SG and SMLMJ were specifically tailored for (aside from you know female fans obvs) and as such they sold extremely well. Shockingly when you put out a comic book made for a mass market audience on the actual mass market itself it sells really well if it's a quality product.

this was a factor in USM's success too because the linearly numbered trades for the series singular narrative (as opposed to ASM and Spec and Web and Sensational and Unlmited and PPSM and Marvel Knights and FNSM and Avenging and Superior and so on) allowed readers on the mass market to pick up volume 1 and keep going until the caught up and then switched to the single issues, just like in the Japanese comic book market.

[Frontier]

How did Peter not treat MCU Liz not very well? He didn't take her for granted or take advantage of her or unjustifiably ignore her. He ditched her on their date for the greater good.

I think Peter did kind of take advantage of Liz a little in that he kept making promises with her only to end up ditching her and the rest of their group, but he still snagged a date with her to the homecoming dance only to still end up ditching her and landing her dad in prison (even if she had no idea about the last point).

I really don't think Peter treated Liz all that well in the movie, even if I don't think he meant her any harm.

[Inversed]

a) Good, better PS4 MJ than Michelle

b) Nobody would imply 0 but...everyone on these boards proves this not to be the case. Just because the general public percieve something to be a certain way doesn't make them right nor their misconception justified. According to the general public Gwen was awesome and loved Peter whilst MJ was a slut (Emma Stone literally said that on national TV) who only loved Spider-Man and did nothing but get kidnapped. **** according to the general public Deadpool was a bland boring Mortal Kombat rip off until like 2016.

I can guarantee you that ABSOULTELY NOBODY thinks MJ is a slut just because Emma Stone said it once in an interview four years ago that pretty much nobody knows or cares about. They like Gwen because they liked her in those movies, and because of Spider-Gwen. But they also like MJ because despite everything else that's gone on, people still think of her as Spider-Man's main romantic interest.

[millernumber1]

I have the second omnibus and it is absolutely wonderful. Still searching for the first omnibus, I've found those, the digests, and the issues are so much harder to find than I would've expected.

It really is one of the best love triangles in any story. The only one I can think of that's really come close is Mark Waid's Archie. You just feel bad for all of them with the awkward situation, how much they all each care for each other, and especially with how MJ knows how much Gwen loves Peter and doesn't want to ruin that for her.

I didn't know that was gonna be a thing and now I'm really interested to see what that would've been. Not only because I REALLY wanna see them dating, but considering how the original series ended, I wonder how Firestar would've worked back into the story.

It feels like the Digests were probably a big reason the series lasted so long, it is one of those series that feels intended to be read that way, especially with the manga aesthetic it already has. Not to mention it was much easier for the target audience to access the digests than the issues.

I have the omnibuses and the digests #2-4. I originally bought the digests as they were coming out because they were the right price point for non-employed college student me. But the omnibuses are gorgeous with oversized art that really shows off Miyazawa's stuff.

I think the Archie comparison is very apt. Everyone is very likeable, everyone is extremely appealing, and it has a really nice Spidey flavor that doesn't overpower the "normal" stuff without being irrelevant.

Here is the thing with PS4 MJ who I do love.

See what I said about adapting things to the new mediums? That kind of means you need to filter the source through the necessities of the new medium and project remit.

In a video game classic MJ was never going to work, hence whenever she showed up she was a damsel in distress.

Spidey PS4 found a great way to incorporate Peter’s normal life but unlike in the comics where those two things are usually separate but impact upon one another (Peter misses a date because he needed to be Spider-Man and his romantic woes drag on his mind when he is in action) and occasionally converge (his BFFs Dad is his villain and kidnaps his girlfriend) in a video game everything ultimately revolves around or feeds back into him as Spider-Man.

Essentially whilst in the comics (despite them maybe not always having equal panel time) Peter Parker’s life is EQUALLY important as Spider-Man’s. But in a video game where the entire point is to play it and engage in ACTivities and you get the most ACTivities when you are Spider-Man because he is an ACTion orientated character, Spider-Man’s life is MORE important than Peter’s. Hence why to all intents and purposes no video game prior to 2018 made you play as Peter Parker as a civilian.

Insomniac fixed that problem by having Peter’s normal life feed back into his life as Spider-Man, but things are still not equal.

This then raised the question of what to do with MJ because 99% of the time her character exists in Peter’s world and not Spider-Man’s and her life and job doesn’t connect with that side of his life. As it shouldn’t in a comic book you read.

But in a video game you play where everything actually does revolve around being Spider-man, you NEED her to connect to that side of his life. Hence why it made sense to extrapolate her USM job and transplant it into their gameverse, whilst not making her a Lois rip off and retaining MJ’s spirit as much as you can within the game’s universe and requirements.

Miles got the same treatment. You could never have Miles have his original backstory in that universe so they filtered him through the needs of the game and it’s universe and wound up with something that worked for that verse and retained as much of who Miles was as possible...and for my money made him more endearing.

I agree - I think they should probably make MJ's gameplay more interesting, but I think the idea of giving Peter's supporting cast stories that support (see!) Peter's, where you get to play as the supporting characters, develops the world and makes it feel richer, I think.

I think Peter did kind of take advantage of Liz a little in that he kept making promises with her only to end up ditching her and the rest of their group, but he still snagged a date with her to the homecoming dance only to still end up ditching her and landing her dad in prison (even if she had no idea about the last point).

I really don't think Peter treated Liz all that well in the movie, even if I don't think he meant her any harm.

I think Peter never meant to treat Liz well, but I do think his behavior wasn't very good, even with good intentions and understandable reasons.