Mary Jane Watson/Parker Appreciation Thread 2018

[Revolutionary_Jack]

New here...but this is a nice moment to recollect later as "this is where I come in". I am avoiding spoilers but addressing the stuff about the Insomniac Spidey new DLC:

I think the Insomniac thing is just a conclusion of the character arc on whether Peter overcomes his over protectiveness for her. He does in that moment, and that's what it's about. I don't think there's any deeper world-building than that. DLC Part 1 was about Peter and MJ's relationship with Felicia Hardy throwing a spanner in their works and she got a playable section there (which Miles didn't get in the DLC). So I don't think there's anything long-term there. They wanted to make the end about Miles that's all. And yes that final part is adorable. DLC as a rule doesn't introduce too big plot points for the sequel games. The major exceptions are the Dishonored games where the DLC are actual full sequels.

As for MJ being a journalist in 616. See I don't think the Lois Lane comparisons are a problem because

1) Spider-Man has more in common with Superman than any other character.

2) Modern Day Lois is herself inspired by Mary Jane : knowing the secret identity, being his confidant, marrying the hero, all that done by MJ first. Heck Amy Adams in Man of Steel is basically Ultimate Mary Jane, down to being part of Superman's origins and keeper from the start, having red hair (which granted some versions of Lois did before but still), which was never part of the Superman-Lois dynamic even in Post-Crisis. So some turnaround is fair play.

3) The DLC introduced a wrinkle that's not there with Lois and Clark. Superman being able to fly means that there's no real long-distance relationship where Spider-Man will always be in New York. So that's a nice dimension.

4) MJ was already someone who traveled a lot and saw more of the world than Peter did. So it's not much of a sense.

My personal feeling is that writers and artists simply didn't understand stuff about modelling and acting. Their attitudes were that girls in that profession are idiots. And Slut-Shaming is part of that. I remember reading Roger Stern's post BND mini-Comic about MJ in The Loves of Spider-Man, and it's got this very dated attitude about MJ being too pretty for a serious role which is not really so much of an issue in contemporary theater and so on. So there's a lot of stuff to do there. And in any case making her a reporter is more believable to me than making her (or for that matter Peter) a corporate executive. I'd like her and Peter to be co-workers at the Daily Bugle. I mean the Parker Industries arc in retrospect is a good case for something that could have not only been done with a married Spider-Man but would have been improved with one. At the same time you had Peter CEO, Bendis made MJ work at Stark, when obviously they should have worked together at Parker Industries and enjoyed for however short or long the status-quo a period of success and celebrity as a power couple and co-workers, and MJ being a little more comfortable with fame would have helped Peter over. There could also be competitive edges about the reverse in power-dynamics in relationship where MJ was the famous one and now Peter is famous and so on.

[LK3185]

I'm someone that's reading the older comics before Peter and MJ get together again (i'm up to Denny O'Neil's run but going back and reading Marvel Team up and Spectacular) Anyway, I haven't read much focusing on MJ's career besides random issues and annuals but I don't think her career choices hurt the book..Peter dating a model is not super unrealistic to me given that he has this thing about him that draws beautiful women around lol. Plus, with MJ's career you can do alot of different things; You don't need to show her off as a pinup model but have her host events, start a charity in her name.... Etc.

I find being a reporter is a lame choice that is easy to write but gets tiresome after awhile.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Being a model and actress and given how unstable and flexible the status-quo is in that field also allowed MJ to mirror Peter. Peter has this unsteady status-quo and uncertain future. He's employed and unemployable, not yet finished grad thesis and so on. But being an actress and model mirrors that. It's not a very steady career and it plateaus early on account of good looks and the youth-fixated and obsessed nature of that. Like MJ should not be in demand as much in his mid-20s as when she was starting out (that bit in ''Invincible Iron Man'' where she talked of this with Amanda Armstrong was good). It's just that most of the writers didn't really understand that. Like for instance MJ is this famous model and so on, but in real-life the fame of supermodels is fleeting and passing. I am thinking of Slott's Human Torch-Spiderman story where MJ is compared and set up as analogous to Britney Spears or Gwen Stefani but no model has ever been as famous or more famous than music icons. There's a kind of blinkered lack of interest in reality when they do stuff like that.

My perfect choice for MJ's career in terms of story-potential, creating permanent source for drama, and also avoid making things samey, and also grounded in her life...make her a novelist/writer. Her dad Philip Watson is this failed writer. So it would be fitting and ironic/tragic if MJ turns out to have literary skills, and that is believable and has happened a lot. Mary Jane has an artistic temperament and spirit. She always knew more about movies and culture than Peter, and there's never been enough light shined on her personal life to discount her having this entirely. Ultimate Mary Jane is a student interested in humanities so you can move that forward. Being a former model turned novelist has precedent in real life. And being a novelist means that she has something to do other than waiting for Peter to come late. She can be up late working on her manuscript. And also Peter becomes her muse. Him and his life and adventures provides a well for her to find inspirations. And writing as a career is not this instant and permanent plateau of success. And also MJ if she's a novelist would have to meet people, do research, and so on...so you can move her in a number of situations where that can work out. She could be a writer of talent who is liked by critics but unsuccessful with the public, it could be she wrote this back book that succeeded but she's not happy that people liked the book she disliked. It could be that her books are liked by supervillains who cites a character as an inspiration for crime. And also it complicates the marriage since now there's a kind of competitiveness and tension. Only problem would be publication years and so on, but you can always Marvel Time that away. I suppose it would be unrealistic for someone so beautiful to be a novelist, but then that has happened like take Clarice Lispector.

The thing about Mary Jane isn't that she's beautiful because Betty Brant, Liz, Gwen, Felicia, and even Cissy Ironwood and Deb Whitman are beautiful. She is charismatic. Her design and quality instantly captivates and draws you in, similar to Jameson, or other comics characters like for instance the Joker who is this great charismatic character.

[Huntsman Spider]

I like that idea, and you could even have Mary Jane's life as a novelist intersect with Peter's as she visits The Daily Bugle, Empire State University, or whatever science lab Peter happens to be working in for research material. She could even become a kind of consultant to the NYPD a la Castle when her novels start being used as inspiration for a series of crimes, much to Peter-as-Spider-Man's consternation.

As an actress, her world could intersect with Peter's as a superhero when she gets tapped to play Black Widow in a biopic about her life, and shadows the actual Natasha Romanoff (still in good standing as an Avenger) to be able to play the role as accurately as possible. Much humor ensues when Mary Jane gets mistaken for Black Widow when in costume, but then it gets less funny when actual supervillains come after Black Widow and find MJ instead. Of course, unlike what would be the usual or typical "damsel in distress" routine, MJ-Widow would ultimately beat them through a combo of wits, wiles, and some surprise "web in your face!"

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As an actress, her world could intersect with Peter's as a superhero when she gets tapped to play Black Widow in a biopic about her life, and shadows the actual Natasha Romanoff (still in good standing as an Avenger) to be able to play the role as accurately as possible. Much humor ensues when Mary Jane gets mistaken for Black Widow when in costume, but then it gets less funny when actual supervillains come after Black Widow and find MJ instead. Of course, unlike what would be the usual or typical "damsel in distress" routine, MJ-Widow would ultimately beat them through a combo of wits, wiles, and some surprise "web in your face!"

The cool bit would be to have MJ act as Jean Grey in a story about the Dark Phoenix Saga. This would be a controversial role since she's a human playing the part of a mutant icon, mutant groups wonder if the film will do it justice or be mutant-bashing. And MJ tries to talk to Wolverine (who she knows well) and Scott about that and so on. It could work. But then Marvel has always insisted on avoiding going that far into their World-Building. Like what kind of roles do superheroes and superhero adventures have in the culture of the MU. They're also downgrading the mutants to the periphery and so on.

Roger Stern's Post-BND one-shot short comic of Mary Jane in ''The Many Loves of Spider-Man'' actually does show Mary Jane using her life experiences for a part. There's a scene MJ is auditioning for, and to nail the role she uses her sense memories of the Peter reveal in the Issue #258-259, "I know Peter Parker is Spider-Man" the whole time to sell it. She didn't get the part in that and so on. It's one of the better portraits of MJ Post-BND, even if it pretty much ignores 20+ years of character development and returns MJ to the character that Stern wrote in "The Daydreamers" but Stern is a genuinely good writer and he doesn't write, as others do, from a place of meanness and low cunning. I mean fundamentally the problem with MJ being an actress/model is that the people who write this and the readers they think of target demographic (teen boys) don't know anything about that and what it means. The issues of the fact that it's a career that is uncertain, plateaus early, and so on. They just think that means floozy, or dumb, and it's basically perpetuating some stereotypes from the 50s and so on forward. Even Stern betrays that in that story. Like the reason MJ gets rejected for the part is that she's too beautiful for the role...which I don't know is out-of-synch. Because if you see theater, the parts generally go to good-looking types and so on. You have make-up and so on, if you want to do homely stuff. Unless Stern wanted to imply that she's a bad actress in general which the story doesn't suggest based on its emotional focus, then it's not a real reason. See the fact that MJ is an aspiring actress and so an artist would draw her to Peter more, not less. Not that I want to imply the stereotype about actresses and actors and so on having drama in their real-life they farm for their roles and so on, but basically the intense emotions and stuff she experiences with Peter would allow her to play nearly any kind of role. Peter is her muse...and that's kind of what Stern's story suggests and implies even if that might not be his intent.

Roger Stern is a funny guy. He's the guy who actually created MJ's backstory and the bit about her knowing Peter the whole time. He alluded to that in his run (especially in his classic "The Daydreamers" which I think is his best story) and wrote an outline that he left to Defalco and according to Stern, Defalco followed it correctly. So essentially he's the man responsible for MJ's character development that led to her marriage and so on, but the he complains that the marriage made her into a different character without citing or owning to the fact that he made it happen.

[Huntsman Spider]

Yeah, that is pretty funny, come to think of it. Good point, though, about how as much credit or flak as Marvel gets for its progressive outlook on things, it can also fall prey to at best dated and at worst actively regressive viewpoints on certain topics. Mary Jane playing Jean Grey could be interesting, too, especially since if she went to consult both Logan and Scott, though I'd prefer, since she's alive again, that MJ and Jean herself talk it out. That could be even better, and wasn't Jean a model herself for a bit?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah, that is pretty funny, come to think of it. Good point, though, about how as much credit w or flak as Marvel gets for its progressive outlook on things, it can also fall prey to at best dated and at worst actively regressive viewpoints on certain topics. Mary Jane playing Jean Grey could be interesting, too, especially since if she went to consult both Logan and Scott, though I'd prefer, since she's alive again, that MJ and Jean herself talk it out. That could be even better, and wasn't Jean a model herself for a bit?

In terms of female characters, Marvel has always been pretty behind DC. Like the so-called Marvel Revolution of the '60s which ushered in and shook up against the staid DC stuff, well DC in the Silver Age had Black Canary, they had Wonder Woman, they had Hawkgirl (who started out as a human love-interest, got powers, became a partner, and so on...just in case people think Spinneret is breaking the rules and whatnot), and even those bad Lois Lane comics that ultimately gave her a reputation that still haunts her...even those sold well. Now of course I wouldn't say DC did justice to all of its women characters. I think there are problems there but it's more than Marvel did.

Whereas in the '60s, Marvel girls were part of teams and duos and groups, but never their own single heroes. Invisible Woman is a famous example of a sexist character of that time. Janet van Dyne is a little better and her initial adventures with Hank Pym had that mutual partner thing. Jean Grey went through a lot of changes and then Claremont came in.

You know one reason why Spider-Man always had a decent female readership is that it actually had more progressive and interesting portrayals of women than other titles. Mostly because Peter is this passive-guy, and he tends to be attract women thanks to his vulnerability and he also likes girls who wear the pants in the relationship. Partly it's because they want to show Peter as this "loveable loser" and that can't work if he's this macho guy who dumps girls and beds the next one...so he has to attract and date a number of girls and somehow not come across as the womanizer when any outside observer (such as Johnny Storm in Slott's story) would say he is one. But what that means is that you have girls who are shown as Peter's equal partner and so on, and it's a higher tier of characterization you see in Silver Age Batman and Superman stories. And Mary Jane was this accidental progressive character. A working-class girl who dates boys but who Aunt May thinks is right for her Peter...just think how uplifting that must have been for girls at the time. The Aunt May, saintly matriarch, thinks that a "loose girl" is just the sort for Peter. That not only does that not make you a bad person it doesn't invalid or disqualify you. Think of how a movie like Forrest Gump treated Jenny...and how the comics treated MJ, an actual 60s character and this is one area where Marvel can actually pat themselves on the back for.

It's no accident that Defalco-Frenz's Spider-Girl is the longest running title for any female character Marvel put out. And she is of course MJ's baby girl. I mean it's kind of weird and I guess it's because Marvel gave Spider-Girl more chances than they did to other female titles and series and I expect that soon some of the female titles will match that, but it's fitting.

[AngelJD]

I'm curious if Flash was mentioned or shown in the game?

If not then in a DLC or future squeal possible when MJ goes to the warzone she might meet Flash representing a Flash during his army days. Since the ending of the main game hinted that a symbiote storyline might be coming it's possible while she is covering the warzone we seen in a cutscene Flash losing his legs after a attack or explosion or such like in the comics. Things leading up to possible a Agent Venom with her being there as part of the beginning of the 'origin'.

Unless the storytellers twist it and MJ gets hurt covering the warzone and later 'healed' by Oscorp (using her secretly as a experiment with the symbiote) and later she plays the role of her Earth's own Agent Venom (or anti Venom) simply due to the few people who liked playing as MJ but hated the stealth aspects thus new gameplay for MJ in the next one.

I wouldn't mind seeing MJ interacting with other characters that came from Spider Multiverse lore outside of Parker just to experience her own 'world' and connections in the spotlight outside of Parker (though of course no matter the path might zig zag the two always cross paths and meet up at some point). Also who else who might pop up from the different locations and events the two (three with Miles and possible four or more) characters are at and do that we can control and interact with.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...

I think you should use spoiler tags since the DLC just came out and so on. And I think the DLC is it for now.

Anyway Flash Thompson was mentioned in the FEAST center background lore. One of the photographs showed veterans and Peter mentions Flash doing work with them.

I honestly think the final conversation isn't meant to hint at anything big. It's framed as basically a character moment. One of the big things in their relationship in the game was being overprotective. So now MJ is off to report this big assignment and Peter has to accept, trust, and hope she can handle it. The fact that MJ says "I love you" is the main point there. And in my experience, people like the MJ stealth stuff. Not all the missions but the one big one where she's defusing the bomb in the station where she basically siccs Spider-Man on those goons. People loved that. The Osborn infiltration mission too.

And honestly if they want to do with MJ having powers...you can do the Spider-Island story where she gets Spider powers. That's a very gamey story in any case.

[Huntsman Spider]

In terms of female characters, Marvel has always been pretty behind DC. Like the so-called Marvel Revolution of the '60s which ushered in and shook up against the staid DC stuff, well DC in the Silver Age had Black Canary, they had Wonder Woman, they had Hawkgirl (who started out as a human love-interest, got powers, became a partner, and so on...just in case people think Spinneret is breaking the rules and whatnot), and even those bad Lois Lane comics that ultimately gave her a reputation that still haunts her...even those sold well. Now of course I wouldn't say DC did justice to all of its women characters. I think there are problems there but it's more than Marvel did.

Whereas in the '60s, Marvel girls were part of teams and duos and groups, but never their own single heroes. Invisible Woman is a famous example of a sexist character of that time. Janet van Dyne is a little better and her initial adventures with Hank Pym had that mutual partner thing. Jean Grey went through a lot of changes and then Claremont came in.

You know one reason why Spider-Man always had a decent female readership is that it actually had more progressive and interesting portrayals of women than other titles. Mostly because Peter is this passive-guy, and he tends to be attract women thanks to his vulnerability and he also likes girls who wear the pants in the relationship. Partly it's because they want to show Peter as this "loveable loser" and that can't work if he's this macho guy who dumps girls and beds the next one...so he has to attract and date a number of girls and somehow not come across as the womanizer when any outside observer (such as Johnny Storm in Slott's story) would say he is one. But what that means is that you have girls who are shown as Peter's equal partner and so on, and it's a higher tier of characterization you see in Silver Age Batman and Superman stories. And Mary Jane was this accidental progressive character. A working-class girl who dates boys but who Aunt May thinks is right for her Peter...just think how uplifting that must have been for girls at the time. The Aunt May, saintly matriarch, thinks that a "loose girl" is just the sort for Peter. That not only does that not make you a bad person it doesn't invalid or disqualify you. Think of how a movie like Forrest Gump treated Jenny...and how the comics treated MJ, an actual 60s character and this is one area where Marvel can actually pat themselves on the back for.

It's no accident that Defalco-Frenz's Spider-Girl is the longest running title for any female character Marvel put out. And she is of course MJ's baby girl. I mean it's kind of weird and I guess it's because Marvel gave Spider-Girl more chances than they did to other female titles and series and I expect that soon some of the female titles will match that, but it's fitting.

That's actually a very great observation. In that light, it's a real shame later or more recent writers didn't seem to understand the message.

[marhawkman]

Heh, it's telling that in Spiderman even the villains are often gentlemen.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Heh, it's telling that in Spiderman even the villains are often gentlemen.

What do you mean by that?

[marhawkman]

What do you mean by that?

Doc Ock for one. If he takes a woman hostage, which isn't often, he is polite and kind.

[Celgress]

Chapter Twenty-Six of my What If OMD Never Happened? story is posted. Spider-Man and Spinneret confront Spider Reaper and Mysterio while the fate of the Multiverse hangs in the balance as Shattered Dimensions concludes -

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1281972...-The-Great-Web

If so inclined, enjoy.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I read that for a bit and it's nice. Do you have plans on doing Parker Industries. Because if there was an example of a Dan Slott arc that would not only work with the marriage but be improved by it, then it's that story. At the same time that happened, Bendis moved MJ to work for Stark Industries as an executive, and the role MJ plays in that story was something she could have easily done for Peter. You could see them both, for the time being, enjoy success and MJ could help Peter deal with that fame stuff better. And we could see them both as co-workers (though admittedly we see that in RYV and here as superheroes) but it would be cool to see that in civilian life too.