Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

[Vinsanity]

So I read the issue and didn’t think it was that bad. Don’t see what all the fuss is about.

I mean it is not the direction I think fans want. I didn't think it was bad either.

See how it pans out.

[Konja7]

And yet, some of the most popular/most well loved parts of comics are arcs when characters grow older, develop, and take another step through life. Like Dick becoming Nightwing, Wally becoming Flash, the other Batkids progressing, even when Dick became Batman, that's considered one of the better Batman and Robin lines in a long time.

And, in case others haven't noticed, Dragon Ball as a franchise is growing quite a bit. Worldwide at that. Over on the Dragon Ball forums, there's a slow, but steadily growing group that want the main character mantle passed from Goku down to another character. Be it Gohan, Goten, Trunks, or even Pan and Uub, there is that growing consensus.

How are the characters that grew up in the past at this moment?

The growth of a character can be popular for an arc. However, comics are a permanent media, which means the more popular character (like Batman) should mantain at certain level.


Of course, there are fans of Dragon Ball that wants the characters to be replaced for the next generation (I want this too), but there are still a lot of fans of Goku and Vegeta that wants they continue as the main characters. Goku and Vegeta are extremely popular, so their protagonist will hardly change.

Not to mention that even Dragon Ball has more possibilities to change protagonists than comics, since stories of characters in manga end at some point.

[Ascended]

I don't like the hierarchies part set in stone, it gives too much power to the characters that are in top. Its great if you're a fan of one of the characters at the top but if not then...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is a double edged sword, I think. DC's tiers of heroes have always been heavily structured. It works well with the kind of "godly pantheon" pyramid shape of the DCU and the people at the top seem even higher up because of their almost mythical in-universe importance.

But the structure also keeps that glass ceiling firmly set, and makes it almost impossible to break through.

I mean, look at Dick; he's been around longer than almost any other character at DC, pre-dating characters like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Lantern, and has been deeply involved in some of DC's most enduring and popular franchises......yet he's still stuck on the B-list.

So yeah, double edged sword. The League all look like gods because they're the League.....but Nightwing is going to need a Harley Quinn type of merchandising miracle to finally move beyond Bruce's shadow.

Sometimes I wonder if DC is actually afraid of Nightwing becoming too popular. If they pushed him, do they think that, somehow, it would decrease the Bat's profit margins? Do they fear that a high quality Nightwing book would pull too many sales from Detective? Products with overlapping demographics and traits can end up hurting each other's sales......does DC fear that happening with the original dynamic duo? And if so, how do they not recognize the many worthwhile and easy ways to differentiate Nightwing from Batman?

[Restingvoice]

Yep, Dick is one of the most well-known sidekicks. This makes him safe from most erasure, but it also keeps him at that state. A sidekick or at least a Bat family member. That's how DC and even people outside comic view him.
Superheroes that are created independently like Cyborg will have more chance to expand because they are not tied to or under other adult superhero, but at the same time if they're not popular they'll have less chance to get promotion, maybe can even be erased. They'll also have less chance to get or maintain their own solo series.

[Ascended]

Yep, Dick is one of the most well-known sidekicks. This makes him safe from most erasure, but it also keeps him at that state. A sidekick or at least a Bat family member. That's how DC and even people outside comic view him.
Superheroes that are created independently like Cyborg will have more chance to expand because they are not tied to or under other adult superhero, but at the same time if they're not popular they'll have less chance to get promotion, maybe can even be erased. They'll also have less chance to get or maintain their own solo series.

Agreed.

I also think the "independent" heroes struggle against the fans more too. You look at Cyborg; he had been a Titan for decades, been a major player in many big, important storylines, and maybe he wasn't the most popular dude around but he definitely had fans and I think the majority of our community respected the character. But try to make him a Leaguer or give him a solo, and fans freak the hell out because "he's a Titan, not a Leaguer!" and "A solo? Why isn't he being used in Titans?"

A good sidekick can spin into their own title and fans see it as natural expansion (damn few complained about the first Robin ongoing) but independent characters? Those guys are stepping on the toes of bigger names if/when they get a chance to grow.

[Restingvoice]

Nicieza on Twitter: well, there is this controversial storyline that I somehow, suddenly, and under ridiculous duress, have gotten myself involved in...

https://www.newsarama.com/42366-new-nightwing-writers-take-ric-grayson-in-a-new-direction.html

That's a pretty fun interview. I like how they're both aware how ridiculous it is they have to scramble to pick this up, Lodbell's reputation, and everything fan said about the run including the similarity to Jason.

I hate this direction so I don't spend any time thinking about what would happen if Dick got amnesia and how he will act. Honestly, I don't care if it make sense or not.

Lobdell: The "Bat Family" is something he's heard about when he was recovering in Gotham. But let’s be serious, if you woke up one morning and a bunch of strangers said you'd spent the last decade or so of your life dressing up in different identities and risking your life for strangers until you took a bullet to the brain...would you be, like "Awesome! Sign me up for that?” Or would you think "Um, that's what my adoptive father thought was a good idea? Yeah, um. I'm going to be over here in Bludhaven, but thanks for the offer?”

Nicieza: I do think that having just been brutalized by a bullet to the head and extended recovery and rehab time, it speaks to his innate sense of perspective and balance that Ric would think he'd be safer in Bludhaven than with the Bat-Family/Gotham

So that makes enough sense for me. Again, I'm not buying this, I don't care about the details, even less about how legitimate amnesia work, but they're the professionals and they have to care, especially in such a short notice, so I don't envy them.

I can feel their stress laugh ^^

@HackinTimSeeley
15h15 hours ago
Replying to @FabianNicieza @Newsarama
Good luck and congrats, man!

@FabianNicieza
13h13 hours ago
congrats is very debatable.

[Vinsanity]

Nicieza on Twitter: well, there is this controversial storyline that I somehow, suddenly, and under ridiculous duress, have gotten myself involved in...

https://www.newsarama.com/42366-new-nightwing-writers-take-ric-grayson-in-a-new-direction.html

That's a pretty fun interview. I like how they're both aware how ridiculous it is they have to scramble to pick this up, Lodbell's reputation, and everything fan said about the run including the similarity to Jason.

I hate this direction so I don't spend any time thinking about what would happen if Dick got amnesia and how he will act. Honestly, I don't care if it make sense or not.

Lobdell: The "Bat Family" is something he's heard about when he was recovering in Gotham. But let’s be serious, if you woke up one morning and a bunch of strangers said you'd spent the last decade or so of your life dressing up in different identities and risking your life for strangers until you took a bullet to the brain...would you be, like "Awesome! Sign me up for that?” Or would you think "Um, that's what my adoptive father thought was a good idea? Yeah, um. I'm going to be over here in Bludhaven, but thanks for the offer?”

Nicieza: I do think that having just been brutalized by a bullet to the head and extended recovery and rehab time, it speaks to his innate sense of perspective and balance that Ric would think he'd be safer in Bludhaven than with the Bat-Family/Gotham

So that makes enough sense for me. Again, I'm not buying this, I don't care about the details, even less about how legitimate amnesia work, but they're the professionals and they have to care, especially in such a short notice, so I don't envy them.

I can feel their stress laugh ^^

@HackinTimSeeley
15h15 hours ago
Replying to @FabianNicieza @Newsarama
Good luck and congrats, man!

@FabianNicieza
13h13 hours ago
congrats is very debatable.

Everyone here is civil but imagine the threats all these guys are getting. Man, I would hate to be a writer dealing with a beloved character. You can't win.

[byrd156]

It would be better as an elseworlds. DC will find a way to destroy Dick as Robin like making him more incompetent. They could rewrite Dick's time to as Robin into a disaster.

They already did that pretty much.

[dietrich]

http://thefuzzyaya.tumblr.com

[caj]

Everyone here is civil but imagine the threats all these guys are getting. Man, I would hate to be a writer dealing with a beloved character. You can't win.

I'm interested in this as a short-term storyline but if they're going to make this long-term or permanent, I'd have a real problem with it. They compare this to Batgirl/Oracle, but Barbara at least remembered who she was and was basically the same person with the same relationships. "Ric" is completely different at this point.

But maybe this will help Bruce/Batman finally learn to appreciate him more. Probably not.

[Konja7]

I'm interested in this as a short-term storyline but if they're going to make this long-term or permanent, I'd have a real problem with it. They compare this to Batgirl/Oracle, but Barbara at least remembered who she was and was basically the same person with the same relationships. "Ric" is completely different at this point.

But maybe this will help Bruce/Batman finally learn to appreciate him more. Probably not.

In both cases, the writer (and editorial) who wrote the shot to Dick and Barbara doesn't care about the future of the character.

However, DC just forget Barbara (who was retired as Batgirl) until someone save the character with Oracle. Oracle was a struck of luck for Barbara.

In the case of Dick, DC can't forget Dick, so they use a filler amnesia arc to handle the situation. They will probably relaunch at some point.

The situation of Barbara was still worse than Dick.

[Onthetrapeze]

In both cases, the writer (and editorial) who wrote the shot to Dick and Barbara doesn't care about the future of the character.

However, DC just forget Barbara (who was retired as Batgirl) until someone save the character with Oracle. Oracle was a struck of luck for Barbara.

In the case of Dick, DC can't forget Dick, so they use a filler amnesia arc to handle the situation. They will probably relaunch at some point.

The situation of Barbara was still worse than Dick.

I think Dick's problem is too much editorial mandate. The amnesia plot was forced by the editors to begin with. I am also very skeptical that even we can have the relaunch soon, the Nightwing coming back may not be the one we want.

[Godlike13]

Oracle had Yale and Ostrander, who had a plan, purpose, and story with Oracle. This is not that, LoL.

[Konja7]

I think Dick's problem is too much editorial mandate. The amnesia plot was forced by the editors to begin with. I am also very skeptical that even we can have the relaunch soon，the Nightwing coming back will not be the one we want.

I didn't know the amnesia was editorial idea. I though it was King idea.

The shot to Dick was King idea, but he doesn't plan how develop Dick story.

[Konja7]

Oracle had Yale and Ostrander, who had a plan, purpose, and story with Oracle. This is not that, LoL.

True. Yale and Ostrander have a plan for Barbara/Oracle. Aftet DC forgot Barbara and doesn't plan to use her.

At least, DC doesn't forgot Dick. Unless you think it's better nobody writes Dick until someone has a really good plan for him