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  1. #2071
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.
    They have no incentive to do that though. Batman especially brings in the money, and the rest of them are more marketable, especially compared to the Titans who are not Dick and the NTT era crew (Vic, Kory, gar, Raven).

    It's also not the fault of that generation of characters that the next generation down can't get their **** together and struggle for relevance. If they need to get rid of another set of characters to flourish, they may not be that great or independent to being with. I want Donna Troy to get her crap sorted out, get better character writing and have a solid direction for once...but I am not even remotely interested in letting go of Wonder Woman to do it.

  2. #2072
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    We're all going to have to make the individual decisions as to whether we're willing and able to financially support Nightwing when our stomachs are turning. None of it is the character's fault, so I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place here.
    I dropped the title ages ago. I bought a Nightwing t-shirt last month, the New Order trade before that, and I'll dump cash on other Nightwing related merchandise any day of the week, but I won't, under any circumstances, reward DC for this train wreck of a title. I do that, I'm telling them I think they're doing a good job.

    Way I see it, and this is just me, the only way we fans can do anything to save Nightwing's book is to stop buying it. People talk about how DC might sweep Dick under the rug and toss him in limbo (or kill him or whatever) if sales drop, but I don't think that's a real possibility. I mean, maybe for a short while, but not for long. Nightwing is too popular, has to loyal a following, for DC to get rid of him. I know Didio has talked about it in the past, but you notice how it never happened? That's because Nightwing is a profitable IP. Right now, DC puts zero effort into the character, screws him over on purpose, and he's still sells decently. He's more invulnerable than Superman. Because we keep buying this drivel.

    If we fans step up and tell DC, with our wallets, that we're sick of this sh*t? DC will have to do something about it because that's a pretty big chunk of money for them to lose out on. They might try throwing him into another stupid-ass direction like this "Ric" nonsense, but if we don't buy that either, they'll have to accept that we're only going to reward quality work from now on. And there's no doubt in my mind that DC is capable of making Nightwing a good book. If us fans can sit here on CBR and toss out excellent ideas for how to use and handle Nightwing, then the professionals should most certainly be capable.

    Nightwing's a fairly big deal. Certainly not Bat big, but bigger than 90% of DC's properties. They can't afford to lose him for more than a short hiatus. But they're not going to give a damn while his book sells strongly for zero effort on their part.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #2073
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.
    I disagree. There's nothing wrong conceptually here. Nightwing doesn't have to become 35 years old to matter or hit the big time, neither do any of his peers. Is the DCU such a small place that there's nowhere for these young adults? No, of course it isn't. The only thing small at DC is the thinking of the people in charge.

    We have business moguls under 30. We have people who have changed the whole world who are under 25. Why is it that Nightwing and the other heroes his age can't "matter," or get any TLC, just because their mentors are still alive and working? Is DC's management so f*cking old they've forgotten that a whole lot of people find great success early in life?

    There's nothing wrong with the structure of the DCU or its generations (well, Manhattan time shenanigans aside). The only problem is the small minded people calling the shots.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #2074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I dropped the title ages ago. I bought a Nightwing t-shirt last month, the New Order trade before that, and I'll dump cash on other Nightwing related merchandise any day of the week, but I won't, under any circumstances, reward DC for this train wreck of a title. I do that, I'm telling them I think they're doing a good job.

    Way I see it, and this is just me, the only way we fans can do anything to save Nightwing's book is to stop buying it. People talk about how DC might sweep Dick under the rug and toss him in limbo (or kill him or whatever) if sales drop, but I don't think that's a real possibility. I mean, maybe for a short while, but not for long. Nightwing is too popular, has to loyal a following, for DC to get rid of him. I know Didio has talked about it in the past, but you notice how it never happened? That's because Nightwing is a profitable IP. Right now, DC puts zero effort into the character, screws him over on purpose, and he's still sells decently. He's more invulnerable than Superman. Because we keep buying this drivel.

    If we fans step up and tell DC, with our wallets, that we're sick of this sh*t? DC will have to do something about it because that's a pretty big chunk of money for them to lose out on. They might try throwing him into another stupid-ass direction like this "Ric" nonsense, but if we don't buy that either, they'll have to accept that we're only going to reward quality work from now on. And there's no doubt in my mind that DC is capable of making Nightwing a good book. If us fans can sit here on CBR and toss out excellent ideas for how to use and handle Nightwing, then the professionals should most certainly be capable.

    Nightwing's a fairly big deal. Certainly not Bat big, but bigger than 90% of DC's properties. They can't afford to lose him for more than a short hiatus. But they're not going to give a damn while his book sells strongly for zero effort on their part.
    I partially agree, but not totally. Things do not necessarily go well for Dick if the sales fall.

    It is true that it is difficult for Dick to go to the limbo even if his comic fails. However, Dick still can lost his solo and DC send him to a team book (that way his presence will help more this comic).

  5. #2075
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    They might just throw him at a team title and leave it at that....but I doubt it. I think if Didio could, he would've done that already. The book is utter trash these days and issue 51 still moved over 35K. Not a lot of books can be that bad and still sell that well. The book has what, a 3.99 cover price? So that's about $140,000, before production costs. If it's a 2.99 cover, that's still over 104K.

    That's not too damn bad for a book that gets no attention and bottom-of-the-barrel effort with creative talent that's *probably* on the lower end of the pay scales (just guessing about that last bit tho).

    And I don't think DC would put in a substitute title in Nightwing's place on the schedule either. Not a lot of properties can move units like that for the effort DC puts in. They might try, but it's very unlikely another title would have such a high sales floor with such half-assed effort. DC would have to get better creators to make as much in sales, and those better creators would probably get paid more, which means this hypothetical replacement isn't as profitable for DC.

    I wouldn't put it past Didio to do it anyway and lose out on that easy money just because of his dumbass personal bias, but I doubt his bosses at WB feel the same way.

    It could happen...I know business but I'm no expert and I don't work in publishing...I just don't think it would last very long. Didio's had it out for Nightwing for over a decade and failed to get rid of him. Dick's safe from limbo or being reduced to team-only status (I think and hope, anyway) he's just not safe from sh*t talent because he keeps selling anyway.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #2076
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    They might just throw him at a team title and leave it at that....but I doubt it. I think if Didio could, he would've done that already. The book is utter trash these days and issue 51 still moved over 35K. Not a lot of books can be that bad and still sell that well. The book has what, a 3.99 cover price? So that's about $140,000, before production costs. If it's a 2.99 cover, that's still over 104K.

    That's not too damn bad for a book that gets no attention and bottom-of-the-barrel effort with creative talent that's *probably* on the lower end of the pay scales (just guessing about that last bit tho).
    To be fair, Nightwing #51 has a foil cover, that's why its sales are so high. In October, many DC comics have foil covers, their sales increase a good amount.

    Nightwing #50 has so good sales, because the tie-in with Batman.
    Last edited by Konja7; 11-14-2018 at 07:35 PM.

  7. #2077
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    To be fair, Nightwing #51 has a foil cover, that's why its sales are so high. In October, many DC comics have foil covers, their sales increase a good amount.

    Nightwing #50 has so good sales, because the tie-in with Batman.
    Oh, I didn't know it had a foil cover. Yeah, that would change the numbers (and production cost). Still, the book is selling more than anything that isn't League related (or Harley Quinn), and is right on the heels of Aquaman and not too far off from Flash, I think. Not amazing numbers, but definitely solid, respectable ones. And that's the problem, when a book sells like that for nothing, what incentive does DC have to put in time and effort?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #2078
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    I forgot to mention that Nightwing #50 is 3.99, while Nigtwing #51 is 2.99 (the foil cover is free).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, I didn't know it had a foil cover. Yeah, that would change the numbers (and production cost). Still, the book is selling more than anything that isn't League related (or Harley Quinn), and is right on the heels of Aquaman and not too far off from Flash, I think. Not amazing numbers, but definitely solid, respectable ones. And that's the problem, when a book sells like that for nothing, what incentive does DC have to put in time and effort?
    It's true. That's a big problem.

    It's worse when you consider that a really good comic like Grayson at the end sells higher, but not much higher (and its sales weren't stable).

    That just makes DC think that putting effort wouldn't change anything.
    Last edited by Konja7; 11-14-2018 at 08:09 PM.

  9. #2079
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Exactly. We all know Nightwing has a high sales floor, but they seem to think he has a low ceiling, meaning he'll sell about the same no matter what. And looking at the figures I can see why they'd think that. But I still disagree with the notion, heartily. I think there is strong potential for growth, if DC were willing to make the investment. It wouldn't happen overnight, but I honestly don't think it would take all that much to get Dick into a higher sales bracket.

    One would expect that DC's management know their business far better than I do but when Didio wants to kill off one of their most popular and most consistent sellers just because he doesn't personally get the appeal, it forces me to question their judgement. I assume it's just Bat-blindness.

    And Grayson's sales dropped, but as far as I know that's just standard sales atrophy. Happens to every title. Now, whether Grayson saw a steeper drop than normal, I don't know.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #2080
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And Grayson's sales dropped, but as far as I know that's just standard sales atrophy. Happens to every title. Now, whether Grayson saw a steeper drop than normal, I don't know.
    The sales for Grayson weren't bad at all and its drops weren't big. That said, its sales were falling little by little.

    I put the numbers of Grayson after Convergence:

    GRAYSON #9 39,610
    GRAYSON #10 33,990
    GRAYSON #11 36,538 (Bombshell variant)
    GRAYSON #12 32,284
    GRAYSON #13 32,260
    GRAYSON #14 31,831
    GRAYSON #15 35,765 (Robin War crossover)
    GRAYSON #16 30,420
    GRAYSON #17 30,257
    GRAYSON #18 33,550 (Fade variant)
    GRAYSON #19 27,378
    GRAYSON #20 23,762

    The last two months had a stronger fall, but it's likely because Grayson was ending.
    Last edited by Konja7; 11-14-2018 at 10:00 PM.

  11. #2081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    The sales for Grayson weren't bad at all and its drops weren't big. That said, its sales were falling little by little.

    I put the numbers of Grayson after Convergence:

    GRAYSON #9 39,610
    GRAYSON #10 33,990
    GRAYSON #11 36,538 (Bombshell variant)
    GRAYSON #12 32,284
    GRAYSON #13 32,260
    GRAYSON #14 31,831
    GRAYSON #15 35,765 (Robin War crossover)
    GRAYSON #16 30,420
    GRAYSON #17 30,257
    GRAYSON #18 33,550 (Fade variant)
    GRAYSON #19 27,378
    GRAYSON #20 23,762

    The last two months had a stronger fall, but it's likely because Grayson was ending.
    The last few months of Grayson were getting pretty confusing for me.

  12. #2082
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    The sales for Grayson weren't bad at all and its drops weren't big. That said, its sales were falling little by little.

    I put the numbers of Grayson after Convergence:

    GRAYSON #9 39,610
    GRAYSON #10 33,990
    GRAYSON #11 36,538 (Bombshell variant)
    GRAYSON #12 32,284
    GRAYSON #13 32,260
    GRAYSON #14 31,831
    GRAYSON #15 35,765 (Robin War crossover)
    GRAYSON #16 30,420
    GRAYSON #17 30,257
    GRAYSON #18 33,550 (Fade variant)
    GRAYSON #19 27,378
    GRAYSON #20 23,762

    The last two months had a stronger fall, but it's likely because Grayson was ending.
    Last few issues the creative team left and they had fill in creators to close out the series while Seeley, King and Janin worked on their Rebirth books. Don't even think they were credited anymore on the book after #17. Such a shame that is how the series had to end.

  13. #2083
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    It's part of the continuing problem Dick has been having over the past few years. The rugs are no sooner put under him than they're pulled out. I had thought the museum curator idea from a few years back was a great idea that gave Dick a home base in addition to providing opportunities for traveling, but it lasted about as long as the most recent Titans notion. It seems to me like DC does no planning except for Big Crossover Events.

  14. #2084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Last few issues the creative team left and they had fill in creators to close out the series while Seeley, King and Janin worked on their Rebirth books. Don't even think they were credited anymore on the book after #17. Such a shame that is how the series had to end.
    You're right.18,19 and 20 have a different creative team. I've always though there was something weird with the strong fall on 19 and 20 (the previous issues were falling, but these last issues has stronger falls).

    As you said, it's a shame that the series ended in this way.
    Last edited by Konja7; 11-15-2018 at 05:49 AM.

  15. #2085

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    In 58 issues the Bat Family has done nothing of Value beyond being used for nostalgia or victims, I doubt King is gonna Change on a dime and have them act like functional people because there is an obsession with showing how great Batman is by showing how bad the Bat Family is as if this is logical but Batman is Batgod and a God can not have equals or people somewhat as competent as he is. King has 42 issues to resolve his Bane Plot, Marriage Plot, etc. If King already had the authority to shoot Dick in the head & Have DC decide what to do and have this imposed on the writer the Nightwing Comic Book should be renamed Batman’s Sidekick Nightwing since without the Titans (especially under Abnett) and all these teased events coming up I see no reason why Dick Grayson is not going to become a Plot Point to bend to Batman’s will whenever need be. Red Hood has his writer who may stay on for the next 5 years, Red Robin/Robin has Bendis, Supersons could probably continue but Damian is in a similar situation that works mostly in his favor as he can travel across the entire galaxy and no one will say anything but dare Nightwing step foot in Skartaris people are going to complain or DC would just strait up reject the story.

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