Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

[Aahz]

Jason was able to have starfire fit in his book. But dick can't because she whould not fit batman's. Sad

That has imo more to do with the direction of the book and the setting, than with Batman.

With current direction of RHatO it is for example also not very likely, that someone like Starfire will pop up.

[Konja7]

I was pretty sure Red Hood was under Batman office.

I remember Red Hood and the Outlaws was part of Batman line on New 52. I don't remember that has changed.

[Dzetoun]

First Wives Club is a movie about 3 first wives who were with their husbands wen the men were struggling to make it big but then they all got dumped and replaced by hotter wives once the husbands found success.

King was very invested and seemed to like dick when he had the Grayson deal which was how he got the batman deal [along with Synders help] but now he's a big shot on Batman he doesn't seem to be as invested or as respectful of the character.


I understand not wanting to do anything to cut into the Batman's market share but they don't have to sabotage the Nightwing character. It's not even like they did for some ground breaking original story that's sure to add value to the Batman. No it's a story line that's been done before and better.

The shooting, braking the bat, bat going ape ****, Robins getting hurt, KGBeast getting left for dead? It's all been done. This story didn't have to happen.

I don't know how the comic business works but surly DC could be winning with Batman while keep Nightwing steady and consistent?
I still maintain that Seeley's Idea of a globe trotting Nightwing was/is the best direction for Dick Grayson and it's different enough from Batman.

I think King’s actual natural inclination is toward the kind of thing we saw in his Nightwing debut (remember the fight in the Batcave?) and that some of the awkwardness people find in his writing and dialogue comes from having to constantly suppress these tendencies in favor of more traditional DC representations.

FWIW, I think Seeley is more genuine in his regard for the character, and had it not been for Seeley’s influence Grayson would have been pretty awful. I think Higgins is also pretty genuine. One thing I actually respect about Lobdell is that he doesn’t try to project emotions he doesn’t really feel. He’s there to do a job, and he is going to do it and go home. There’s honesty in that, even if you don’t like his story (which I don’t).

Realistically, I think the best thing for Nightwing at the moment would be to find a young writer with a genuine enthusiasm for the character, pair him with a good artist, and give him the same deal Lobdell seems to have with Jason Todd, a kind of “we don’t care much what you do just build a fan base and don’t cause trouble” understanding. Unfortunately, it is hard to do that in the Bat Office, due to the gravitational pull of Batman.

[yohyoi]

How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?

[yohyoi]

Personally, I think we need to organize ourselves and make our voice heard to the upper management of DC, since only they can stop DiDio.

[yohyoi]

I don't get people saying it will be cancelled when it is above 50% of what DC is selling right now. They would cancel most of their books if we use sales as a criteria. DiDio can keep it going too. We need to let our voice be heard everyday and everywhere since it is the only way we can stop Ric.

[Ascended]

How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?

The best thing you can do is stop buying the book. DC treats Nightwing like this because they know his fanbase will buy the book no matter what. So stop buying it! Stop accepting the pile of crap they're offering us. The only real language DC understands is money; they don't care how much you complain on a message board, if you buy the product you're telling them that they are doing a good job.

Don't worry about a sales drop leading to Nightwing being put into limbo. Everyone worries about their favorite character disappearing if sales are low, but Dick's got too much history and importance to be swept under the rug. If it were possible to get rid of him, Didio would've done it already.

Secondly, use social media. Send messages to whoever the Bat editor is, to Didio, to Lee, to Johns, everyone who has a twitter account and interacts with fans. Send messages to creators who aren't even currently working with any Gotham characters. Tell them all that we want Nightwing treated with the respect he deserves, both in-universe and in the real world. The more noise DC hears from Nightwing's fans, the better. Get your family and friends to do the same. Even if they aren't comic fans, get them to send a message or two Didio's way.

Thirdly, if you have the chance to talk to any of the pro's (at a con or whatever), talk about Nightwing, about the potential being squandered. Don't pitch your own ideas about how to make Nightwing better (unless asked anyway) but make it clear that Nightwing can be, is, and should be, more than what DC is letting him be. Pro's are going to remember a conversation they had face-to-face and that'll carry more impact than internet messages and help drive home how passionate the fans are. DC already knows that Nightwing has a deeply loyal fanbase, but they need to know that the fanbase has potential to really grow and is already bigger than they realize; a lot of us just won't buy the book when it's half-assed.

Finally, make sure you financially support Nightwing in ways other than buying a crappy comic book. Buy merchandise, that's huge. Merchandise sales is why Harley Quinn became such a big name and DC pays attention to how many toys and t-shirts get sold. Buy the New Order miniseries, download Nightwing specific content (if there is any?) for the various Batman video games out there. And send messages to the developers about how you want more Nightwing. If Netherrealm calls DC and says they keep getting asked about Nightwing content for Injustice 3, Didio is going to take note of that. If Weisman calls DC and says a lot of Young Justice fans are demanding more Nightwing and are only buying the DCU app for his role on the cartoon, Didio is going to take note of that too.

The real problem here is that Dick does sell pretty well, no matter how bad the book is. He turns a solid profit even when DC puts in zero effort with him. So we don't have to convince DC that Nightwing is profitable; they know that. What we have to do is convince them that Nightwing could take that big step up and become a solid, reliable A-list property (just like Harley has become) if they put in just a little tiny bit more effort.....and then, when DC does put in a little more effort.....we have to be there to support it.

[dietrich]

How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?

Normally they say not to buy what you don't like but i can't support not buying the title even with the story going on because that works against Dick Grayson.

we could do a petition against this change [when DC was doing the Deathstroke v Batman there was a petition on a Bruce Wayne is the father twitter that had an overwhelming amount of support. That seems like the simplest and easiest way of letting the higher ups know how many people are against this direction.
Personally I don't think it will last. Dick Grayson the actual name is important and valuable to DC. Dick Grayson is a widely recognised part of pop culture. Ric Grayson isn't. DC can kill Nightwing but Dick Grayson can't be erased because that is the name of Robin. The name of the 1st sidekick that ever mattered.

The name matters. Ric isn't going to last.

[oasis1313]

Normally they say not to buy what you don't like but i can't support not buying the title even with the story going on because that works against Dick Grayson.

we could do a petition against this change [when DC was doing the Deathstroke v Batman there was a petition on a Bruce Wayne is the father twitter that had an overwhelming amount of support. That seems like the simplest and easiest way of letting the higher ups know how many people are against this direction.
Personally I don't think it will last. Dick Grayson the actual name is important and valuable to DC. Dick Grayson is a widely recognised part of pop culture. Ric Grayson isn't. DC can kill Nightwing but Dick Grayson can't be erased because that is the name of Robin. The name of the 1st sidekick that ever mattered.

The name matters. Ric isn't going to last.

How do we start a petition?

[Arsenal]

How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?

It's been what... three issues so far? Maybe four? You won't have to wait it out for years because it won't even last a year. No need to be so over dramatic.

[dropkickjake]

You're singing my son man! I really want to see Nightwing visit "Uncle Clark" and his family for an extended stay. Dick can hang out and protect Suicide Slum when he's not getting to know Jon and patrolling with Clark.

Oh, and dating Power Girl. Need to see that too.

YES. I don't know if this would work as a long term direction, but I want a full story arc or two or three of this.

[Badou]

I was pretty sure Red Hood was under Batman office.

I remember Red Hood and the Outlaws was part of Batman line on New 52. I don't remember that has changed.

I think now it is under the Batman editors, but before Rebirth I think Lobdell had his own group of editors where Outlaws fell more under the Superman editorial group or something weird like that. Lobdell can kind of do what he wants usually.

How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?

Nightwing's book will get relaunched in 2019 sometime. With a new creative team and a new direction. I imagine that DC will relaunch most of their books in 2019.

[Claude]

I think King’s actual natural inclination is toward the kind of thing we saw in his Nightwing debut (remember the fight in the Batcave?) and that some of the awkwardness people find in his writing and dialogue comes from having to constantly suppress these tendencies in favor of more traditional DC representations.

FWIW, I think Seeley is more genuine in his regard for the character, and had it not been for Seeley’s influence Grayson would have been pretty awful. I think Higgins is also pretty genuine. One thing I actually respect about Lobdell is that he doesn’t try to project emotions he doesn’t really feel. He’s there to do a job, and he is going to do it and go home. There’s honesty in that, even if you don’t like his story (which I don’t).

I think there's a lot to that - after all, it's worth remembering the story King tells about a meeting at Marvel where he decided to pretend that the Winter Soldier was his favourite character in all comics, because he thought they were going to ask him to pitch for it.

But I think it might be a bit sadder than that. When Rebirth was in the early stages, and we started to get word that Seeley and King weren't getting to finish "Grayson", neither seemed especially happy about that fact. Seeley said that, if it were up to him, it would have carried on being him and King and Janin working on the book together - even though he almost certainly got a pay bump for writing the "Nightwing" title solo. But the difference, I think, is that Seeley went on to hype the Lanzing and Kelley issues - whereas King has more recently said that he hasn't even read them, as he was too attached to what they were doing he didn't feel that he could.

I don't think King was faking a love of Dick Grayson - not because he wouldn't, but because he's not successfully communicated the same kind of love to characters like Vision, Kyle Rayner or even Bruce. But he's moved from working with Seeley on additional Dick Grayson pitches to run alongside their series, to no longer even declaring "Grayson" on his twitter bio.

It's fully possibly this is the transition of King from "up-and-comer" to "comics superstar" - but I also think he was very likely soured on the "Grayson" project and character by having their plans cut short and messed with.

(Having to carry the can for how "Robin War" turned out can't have been fun! That whole thing so nearly worked, but....)

Realistically, I think the best thing for Nightwing at the moment would be to find a young writer with a genuine enthusiasm for the character, pair him with a good artist, and give him the same deal Lobdell seems to have with Jason Todd, a kind of “we don’t care much what you do just build a fan base and don’t cause trouble” understanding. Unfortunately, it is hard to do that in the Bat Office, due to the gravitational pull of Batman.

A risky proposition - that's what Tim Drake got in Tynion, and the combination of "relatively inexperienced writer" and "overwhelming fanlove" didn't leave an appealing result!

[Konja7]

I think there's a lot to that - after all, it's worth remembering the story King tells about a meeting at Marvel where he decided to pretend that the Winter Soldier was his favourite character in all comics, because he thought they were going to ask him to pitch for it.

But I think it might be a bit sadder than that. When Rebirth was in the early stages, and we started to get word that Seeley and King weren't getting to finish "Grayson", neither seemed especially happy about that fact. Seeley said that, if it were up to him, it would have carried on being him and King and Janin working on the book together - even though he almost certainly got a pay bump for writing the "Nightwing" title solo. But the difference, I think, is that Seeley went on to hype the Lanzing and Kelley issues - whereas King has more recently said that he hasn't even read them, as he was too attached to what they were doing he didn't feel that he could.

I don't think King was faking a love of Dick Grayson - not because he wouldn't, but because he's not successfully communicated the same kind of love to characters like Vision, Kyle Rayner or even Bruce. But he's moved from working with Seeley on additional Dick Grayson pitches to run alongside their series, to no longer even declaring "Grayson" on his twitter bio.

It's fully possibly this is the transition of King from "up-and-comer" to "comics superstar" - but I also think he was very likely soured on the "Grayson" project and character by having their plans cut short and messed with.

(Having to carry the can for how "Robin War" turned out can't have been fun! That whole thing so nearly worked, but....)

Well, in this forum, I read that Seeley and King working together on Grayson wasn't the best situation for both parts (since they've never worked together before), so I don't think King was pretty angry to let Grayson for Batman.

Also, King taking the offer to work on Batman was surely his decision.

[joybeans]

Hey, let's cool it with the hyperbolic conspiracy theories about writers, okay?