Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

[yohyoi]

This is why I think villains should be a little careful around Nightwing. Sure, he's gonna try real hard not to kill you and he really doesn't want to.....but he doesn't seem to have the near-absolute inability like Bruce seems to. Dick's a "heart on his sleeve" kinda dude, and you better hope you don't push him *too* far or you just might find yourself in a "Zod" kind of situation; six feet under with a hero who "doesnt kill" standing over you wondering how he let you push him that far.

I'm okay with Dick killing if is it is for the best. He is not Batman. The Joker needs to die. Everyone knows that. Dick is not psychologically damaged like Batman or Red Hood. He can kill someone irredeemable. Then understand it is for the best and that killing does not make him a bad person. Like a policeman or a soldier.

[nhienphan2808]

The only reason Dick doesn't kill is i think he considers himself in Bruce's circle and a hero. He understands the no kill rule and why it is. But there are many speculations in the form of elseworld type stories that without Bruce or a good Batman, or heroes in his life he would be free to kill or lose his way of justice. Like the Earth where Batman is a vampire, or New Order. I personally believe that, and believe Bruce is as much Dick's moral compass as he is to Bruce. He HAS shown murder rage many times. I imagine he's as usually on the brink of killing as Bruce, when pushed.

[ross61]

Maybe Didio put Seeley and King off in a broom closet, well away from the nice fancy DC offices, and said, "Do what you like--just don't bother me with it." And he ignored them until the book started getting some kudos, stuck his head out of his palatial editorial suite, and said, "Hey, I could put these guys on a higher-profile book!"

Seeley attached King to his hip for that run

[yohyoi]

The only reason Dick doesn't kill is i think he considers himself in Bruce's circle and a hero. He understands the no kill rule and why it is. But there are many speculations in the form of elseworld type stories that without Bruce or a good Batman, or heroes in his life he would be free to kill or lose his way of justice. Like the Earth where Batman is a vampire, or New Order. I personally believe that, and believe Bruce is as much Dick's moral compass as he is to Bruce. He HAS shown murder rage many times. I imagine he's as usually on the brink of killing as Bruce, when pushed.

Even in those Elseworlds Dick is not a killer for killing sake. Bruce is somewhat insane, since he thinks if he kills once, he becomes the Joker or Bane. Dick kills on some Elseworlds, but not as a mad man; but as a sane man doing what he thinks is necessary. In the vampire Elseworld, it's because of revenge (Also he backed out in the last second). In New Order, it's because of peace (If we count freezing people in a comatose state as killing).

Dick has a rage inside him. But it is not psychopathic. It is more of a passionate rage. While Batman has the psychopathic rage which revels on the thought of violence. Dick has the passionate rage because his emotions get the best of him and he can't control it. Bruce became Dick's moral compass when Bruce took him as Robin, but the way they cope with their darkness are different. Batman is direct and physical. The brain. Dick is passive-aggressive and emotional. The heart. Same coin. Two different sides.

If Dick wasn't taken by Batman, he might have killed Zucco but stop there. He has never shown tendencies to hurt innocent normal people like Bruce. A lot of Elseworlds show him as a cop or detective. So Dick keeps his view of Justice with less vigilantism most of the time.

[OWL45]

I'm okay with Dick killing if is it is for the best. He is not Batman. The Joker needs to die. Everyone knows that. Dick is not psychologically damaged like Batman or Red Hood. He can kill someone irredeemable. Then understand it is for the best and that killing does not make him a bad person. Like a policeman or a soldier.

Ya I agree with your perspective on the character. Very much how he is portrayed in the Titans show. I don’t think that version of the character is as off base as was made out given the setting.

[Onthetrapeze]

The only reason Dick doesn't kill is i think he considers himself in Bruce's circle and a hero. He understands the no kill rule and why it is. But there are many speculations in the form of elseworld type stories that without Bruce or a good Batman, or heroes in his life he would be free to kill or lose his way of justice. Like the Earth where Batman is a vampire, or New Order. I personally believe that, and believe Bruce is as much Dick's moral compass as he is to Bruce. He HAS shown murder rage many times. I imagine he's as usually on the brink of killing as Bruce, when pushed.

IIRC Dick didn't kill anyone in New Order. Well, Bruce's death dramatically changed his perspective on justice, but I don't think he lost it.

[dropkickjake]

While I agree that Dick doesn't have the "mental block" towards killing that Bruce does, I don't think that Dick is capable of reasoning out "this person needs to die so I am going to kill him." For the Blockbuster incident, he was already mentally drained, exhausted, nearly broken. The Joker, though I haven't read the story, was more of an emotional response to loosing Tim.

Both of these incidents sent him in to depression born of cognitive dissonance. Dick understands himself as "good." This is important to him. Jason and Damian both seem to have an understanding of themselves that by working with Batman they are redeeming themselves, which is to say that they were bad and are becoming good. Dick sees himself as "good," from the start though. He is a hero like Superman or Batman at his best. These are his role models and idols at a very deep level. But killing is "bad." Full stop. The times that he has even allowed a villain to be killed sort of guy punches his brain. Not only does he have trouble rectifying himself being a good guy if he just did the ultimate no-no, he also feels like he has let the people he loves down. This is a massive blow against his primary purpose as a human being, "Catching people when they fall."

[Godlike13]

I think Dick just generally doesn’t want to kill anybody. When he gets to that point, it’s because he’s driven there.

[oasis1313]

While I agree that Dick doesn't have the "mental block" towards killing that Bruce does, I don't think that Dick is capable of reasoning out "this person needs to die so I am going to kill him." For the Blockbuster incident, he was already mentally drained, exhausted, nearly broken. The Joker, though I haven't read the story, was more of an emotional response to loosing Tim.

Both of these incidents sent him in to depression born of cognitive dissonance. Dick understands himself as "good." This is important to him. Jason and Damian both seem to have an understanding of themselves that by working with Batman they are redeeming themselves, which is to say that they were bad and are becoming good. Dick sees himself as "good," from the start though. He is a hero like Superman or Batman at his best. These are his role models and idols at a very deep level. But killing is "bad." Full stop. The times that he has even allowed a villain to be killed sort of guy punches his brain. Not only does he have trouble rectifying himself being a good guy if he just did the ultimate no-no, he also feels like he has let the people he loves down. This is a massive blow against his primary purpose as a human being, "Catching people when they fall."

I would agree with you here. Dick grew up in the shadows of Superman as well as Batman. He views himself more as a protector than avenger.

[Ascended]

I think Dick just generally doesn’t want to kill anybody. When he gets to that point, it’s because he’s driven there.

Oh certainly. I dont think Dick would ever say "Well, it's time to go hunt Joker down and murder-ize his face!" But in the heat of the moment, if faced with a dire situation, I think Dick would take a life. He's much more like Clark than Bruce that way. People

It'd tear him up afterwards of course, as someone said there's a dissonance between Dick's self-image and the act of taking a life, but I don't think it'd stop him if he was really motivated and didn't see another option.

[oasis1313]

Oh certainly. I dont think Dick would ever say "Well, it's time to go hunt Joker down and murder-ize his face!" But in the heat of the moment, if faced with a dire situation, I think Dick would take a life. He's much more like Clark than Bruce that way. People

It'd tear him up afterwards of course, as someone said there's a dissonance between Dick's self-image and the act of taking a life, but I don't think it'd stop him if he was really motivated and didn't see another option.

If there was no other way, Dick would do what he had to do to protect someone else. He wouldn't do it to save his own life, but he would for an innocent person.

[byrd156]

Ya, they explored it in Last Laugh, and then again with Block Buster. Both times sent him into a depression.

Also don't forget the Joker was dying from cancer at the time too. (turns out he wasn't but whatever)

[oasis1313]

Also don't forget the Joker was dying from cancer at the time too. (turns out he wasn't but whatever)

"Last Laugh"? Is that in a tpb somewhere?

[byrd156]

"Last Laugh"? Is that in a tpb somewhere?

Found it here, not sure if it's the whole thing.

https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Jokers.../dp/1401217842

[yohyoi]

I realized Lobdell is the worst writer for two Robins. At some point, DC should have realized.