Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

[Badou]

But when Dick was in the NTT he was also still part of the younger generation of heroes. There weren't all these other generations of heroes behind him like there are now. He is an adult hero and needs to be treated as such. I think just pushing him off to look after younger heroes doesn't really fix any of the problems he has. It is lumping all these lower gen heroes together because DC doesn't know how to incorporate Dick with adult heroes. It doesn't work.

The ceiling that Dick is running into now is that he is an adult hero but he isn't allowed to be looked at with the other adult heroes that are in the JL. Dick isn't even allowed in the JL which is a problem too. That Abnett Titans issue where Dick was walking into the Hall of Justice and was supposed to be in awe of statues of the JL heroes was insulting. It was such a joke. Him being in awe of some heroes that haven't even done as much as him. And of course all the problems with Batman and the JL treating him and the Titans like children.

What needs to happen is that Dick should join the JL. Become a full fledged JL member and be looked at and treated as one. There is no reason why he shouldn't do this. Him just being a Titan but being able to use JL facilities doesn't cut it because it doesn't get rid of the ceiling he is running into. This doesn't mean he has to lose his Titans connections, or even get rid of the Titans team (heroes can be part of multiple teams), but that barrier of him not being allowed in the JL needs to go away.

He can still be the go-to for mentoring the younger generation if you want, it can be one of his official JL responsibilities, but he needs to do this as a full JL member. They can even have Dick be the liaison and the go-between for the JL and Titans as part of his role. A full member of both teams. There is zero reason to put Miss Martian in this role when Dick could do it better.

It doesn't matter that Dick in the JL won't be treated or looked at as the same as the founding 7, or even used in the JL book that much. No one that joins the JL will be treated the same as them anyway, but it gets rid of that obstacle of other adult heroes not treating Dick as an adult. He he would be on their level and that barrier is gone. Then if Dick messes up him being in the JL means that Batman and the other JL members can properly punish Dick because they actually have leverage with also being JL members. They would be able to strip Dick of responsibilities or even kick him out of the JL. So that whole story Abnett was trying to do with the JL punishing the Titans when they should have no control or influence over the Titans team would make sense in this situation.

[Godlike13]

Screw the JL. Dick and the Titans should take the TV show mentality of F Batman. He should be trying to make the Titans its own competitive superhero team that can stand with the JL. Regardless if DC would ever let that that happen, that should be the mentality. Young and hungry upstarts that want to make a name for themselves.

[Ascended]

Just spitballing cause Bludhaven is a bland place.

I don't think changing cities will make much of a difference.

You can stick Grayson in Bludhaven, Chicago, Gotham, Suicide Slum, Asgard, or the middle of Atlantis, and the story will still only be as good as the person writing it. Bludhaven was a pretty interesting, dynamic, and fun place back in Dixon's run. What ruined the city wasn't Bludhaven itself, it was the same inconsistency and neglect that has poisoned the entire Nightwing property. Ideas get introduced and them dumped so quickly no world building happens. Of course everyone hates Bludhaven, the city has no identity and changes drastically with every new writer. If DC allowed Gotham to be treated like that, none of us would like that place either.

If we got a solid writer willing and able to stick around for more than six seconds, and DC allowed that writer to actually develop Nightwing and his mythos? We'd be fine, and it wouldn't matter where Dick was.

That's basically the Devin Grayson Titans series I keep talking about.

I'm personally not huge on Dick holding down the "mentor" role. Granted, it's a role no one else in DC really claims and it gives Nightwing a purpose and importance in-universe, and it fits with his character perfectly. So it's not a bad choice and it fits him better than a lot of options. But I think the margin for error is too wide. I agree with those who have said that it could push Dick into the shadows of not just Bruce and the League, but the younger up-and-comers who DC wants to promote. Saying that you were "trained by Nightwing" should carry some serious weight and be a promise of hard-trained skill......but it could easily swerve off the rails where DC keeps "proving" how badass their new young hero is by having that kid defeat the first Robin.

I don't think it would necessarily be horrible like that, and if I trusted DC more I'd believe that this approach and role could work wonderfully (Dick really is the greatest teacher in the DCU). But its DC, so I don't trust them to pull it off. Who knows, they've surprised me before of course.....but it's a direction I'd feel nervous about.

I think a safer approach with less threat of abuse is finding a unique niche for Dick to fill, that doesn't lean on other IP's. Something like the "super spy" or "wandering ronin" or my own "Bat having Super adventures" could all potentially work to provide Dick a place to reign supreme and "own" that doesn't require other heroes (many of whom will probably not fall under the same editorial umbrella) being there. Whether he's a super spy or not, he'll always be a Bat, always be a Titan, and he still has more ties to the wider DCU than anyone else. So he won't lose his connections that help make him sell, even if he is building his own world in his own corner. Uncle Clark can still visit with the family, Bruce and Tim can still visit, Roy can show up to go bar hopping (oh, wait.....).

[Konja7]

I wonder what is the reception of Titans? So far, I hear positive reviews, but I don't know how this has been received in general.

Titans is a series with limited broadcast due to the format, but I hope it's popular.

I don't think changing cities will make much of a difference.

You can stick Grayson in Bludhaven, Chicago, Gotham, Suicide Slum, Asgard, or the middle of Atlantis, and the story will still only be as good as the person writing it. Bludhaven was a pretty interesting, dynamic, and fun place back in Dixon's run. What ruined the city wasn't Bludhaven itself, it was the same inconsistency and neglect that has poisoned the entire Nightwing property. Ideas get introduced and them dumped so quickly no world building happens. Of course everyone hates Bludhaven, the city has no identity and changes drastically with every new writer. If DC allowed Gotham to be treated like that, none of us would like that place either.

If we got a solid writer willing and able to stick around for more than six seconds, and DC allowed that writer to actually develop Nightwing and his mythos? We'd be fine, and it wouldn't matter where Dick was.

Well, it seems many fans of Jason are happy with his comic, because they feel the character is developed in a good way. Also, editorial doesn't interfere.

So, it's possible that Nightwing will receive the same treatment at some point.


However, you should remember that editorial doesn't interfere with Jason, because he has been developed in a minor role. If he was trying to get a big place, editorial will probaby interfere.

So, Dick may found a place, but I don't think it will be a place in the DCU.


PS: Also, Lobdell isn't so good writer, then DC won't put him on Batman.

[Badou]

Screw the JL. Dick and the Titans should take the TV show mentality of F Batman. He should be trying to make the Titans its own competitive superhero team that can stand with the JL. Regardless if DC would ever let that that happen, that should be the mentality. Young and hungry upstarts that want to make a name for themselves.

Yeah, young hungry upstarts that are 2 generations removed from being young upstarts. They haven't been that since the 80s. If Dick's gen was the youngest, or even in the position that Tim's gen is in, then I'd be all for that, but it has been decades since that could apply to Dick's generation of characters.

I'd honestly rather Dick to go the JSA than be stuck just in the Titans like he has been. I have zero confidence that the show will change anything in the comics and the adult Titans franchise will continue to limp along like it has been.

[Godlike13]

Tim’s generation are children, teenagers, who’s priorities still involve homework. Dick generation is not 2 generations removed from being young upstarts. They are still young. Their age range is 21-25. This just gets lost when they get saddled with out of touch writers who write them like they are still in the 60’s. They’re young adults who should being trying to make a name for themselves and forge their own path. You can’t complain Dicks Batman light and then be let’s put him in the JL. The JL isn’t gonna do crap for him. The Titans comic sucks, and the people behind the comic just don’t seem to get it, but the JL isn’t the answer.

[Pohzee]

The Fab Five have no edge and seemingly no drive. They're the opposite of hungry.

Dick will never be on the JL long term. Dick will never be on the Outsiders long term. Dick will never be an agent of Spyral long term. There have been three successful TV shows starring Dick in the Titans. Regardless of how dead the Titans are in the comics, that is his place. It can be his platform or his cage, but that's up to DC. In the comics it is a cage right now.

[Godlike13]

I know, they are complacent and submissive bitches who come off like they in their mid 30’s. Not very modern characters at all, and to me this is one of their main problems. All of them need modern overhauls and more contemporary sensibilities.

[Pohzee]

Half of the deadweight is gone. Now we just need to send Garth somewhere safe like the Sanctuary and we'll be $$$$$

[9th.]

I'm liking Dick's character in Titans its just the fight scenes that get to me. They're not bad at all its just so brutal, obviously he has a reason for acting this way so im ready to see what his issues with Bruce are.

[oasis1313]

I'm liking Dick's character in Titans its just the fight scenes that get to me. They're not bad at all its just so brutal, obviously he has a reason for acting this way so im ready to see what his issues with Bruce are.

I think that sometimes people have difficulty reconciling Nice Dick Grayson with the other side of him--who is in a ceaseless battle To See Justice Done. Bruce recently (and wonderfully) referred to Dick as "a one-man strike force." He is a SWAT team with no rifles, all by himself. What he IS is very brutal because one man versus twenty armed criminals cannot be gentle.; the Bat-characters can control the degree and extent of their brutality, but someone like Dick could break every bone in Mike Tyson's body when The Champ was still in his prime--and it would probably take him less than one minute to do it. In the new TV show filmed in the past year or so, we're getting bone-cracking sounds and blood flying everywhere versus the "Zap!" and "Pow!" of the 60's TV show. We don't get the sound and motion with the comics; it comes at us in a more visceral manner when we can hear it and watch it move. It's a little jarring for me, too.

[Badou]

Tim’s generation are children, teenagers, who’s priorities still involve homework. Dick generation is not 2 generations removed from being young upstarts. They are still young. Their age range is 21-25. This just gets lost when they get saddled with out of touch writers who write them like they are still in the 60’s. They’re young adults who should being trying to make a name for themselves and forge their own path. You can’t complain Dicks Batman light and then be let’s put him in the JL. The JL isn’t gonna do crap for him. The Titans comic sucks, and the people behind the comic just don’t seem to get it, but the JL isn’t the answer.

How is he not two generations removed from being the young upstarts? You have Tim's generation that is nearly or already college age doing the exact same thing you want Dick's gen to do. Be the young upstart team looking to make a name for themselves, and Damian's mid teenage team is doing that too. There is nothing unique about Dick also doing the same thing but being slightly older than Tim's generation. You had a teenage Raven be part of ALL THREE teams and generations in the span of a few years. So it isn't like these teams are super different. The Titans franchise is designed for young heroes and there are tons of young heroes behind Dick now.

I fundamentally think the idea of an adults Titans team is broken. There is really nothing an adult Titans team can offer than the JL doesn't already do and do better. I mean they have young heroes on their team in Cyborg or Jessica Cruz recently. So it isn't some old guys club. I'd love for Dick to leave the franchise and give it to the younger heroes, but I know he can't do that. He's handcuffed to the Titans. So at least him being a full JL member at the same time will help get around a lot of the problems he is facing now with being too old to tell proper Titans stories with but too young to be a proper JL member. He can be a full JL member and that obstacle is gone since they can't keep aging Dick down with so many younger heroes behind him now.

The problem with comparing the Titans show to the comics is that on the show despite Dick and some of the heroes being 20 somethings there aren't these other generations of heroes behind them. They are still basically the youngest generation in that universe. So setting up the team to be young upstarts works because they fill the void of being the young heroes looking for an identity. Which is the core identity of the Titans/Teen Titans franchise. Dick is still operating as Robin in it even. In the DCU they aren't the young heroes anymore. Dick hasn't been Robin closing in on 40 years now. They shouldn't be looking for who they are. Dick has been at this longer than half the JL heroes. Setting them up as the "young" team leads to the shit we are dealing with in Abnett's run where the JL looks down on the Titans and treat heroes like Dick as being less than they are. I'm done with the "young upstarts" idea and want them to be treated as adults already.

So sure, the JL isn't going to do much on a broad sense. He can still be written like crap if he is or isn't a full JL member, like how the current Titans run writes him like crap and the JL look down on him, and he will still be useless in big events too probably, but this is about removing that obstacle of him being barred from being a full time JL member. That is my issue. There is no reason he shouldn't be on the JL already other than DC doesn't want him there, which is a problem. He can still do everything you are saying with running his own Titans team in the vein of it being the younger/cooler group, but he can do so while also sitting at the adults table. An adults table that has his own seat instead of him occasionally sitting in Bruce's.

After saying all that do I think this will happen? No. It is just what I think needs to happen in terms of Dick getting around this ceiling in front of him. DC will never put him on the JL full time where Batman is and Dick is handcuffed to the useless mess that is the Titans franchise. If I felt like the Titans could become a legitimate team that could nearly stand shoulder to shoulder to the JL the way a JSA does, or how the X-Men are to the Avengers, then I'd support the Titans, but I don't see that ever happening. A team like the Suicide Squad and Harley are treated with more respect by the JL heroes than the Titans or heroes like Dick.

[Konja7]

I think that sometimes people have difficulty reconciling Nice Dick Grayson with the other side of him--who is in a ceaseless battle To See Justice Done. Bruce recently (and wonderfully) referred to Dick as "a one-man strike force." He is a SWAT team with no rifles, all by himself. What he IS is very brutal because one man versus twenty armed criminals cannot be gentle.; the Bat-characters can control the degree and extent of their brutality, but someone like Dick could break every bone in Mike Tyson's body when The Champ was still in his prime--and it would probably take him less than one minute to do it. In the new TV show filmed in the past year or so, we're getting bone-cracking sounds and blood flying everywhere versus the "Zap!" and "Pow!" of the 60's TV show. We don't get the sound and motion with the comics; it comes at us in a more visceral manner when we can hear it and watch it move. It's a little jarring for me, too.

That's true. It's something I can notice when I read the critique to the violence.

Although Titans focus a little too much on the violence, the damage Dick causes on the criminals in comic is probably no so different.

In comics, Dick has attacked with sharp weapons and hard weapons, that definitely causes a lot of damage.


That said, Titans makes clear that the current methods of Dick (and Batman) are becoming excessive.

[Jackalope89]

That's true. It's something I can notice when I read the critique to the violence.

Although Titans focus a little too much on the violence, the damage Dick causes on the criminals in comic is probably no so different.

In comics, Dick has attacked with sharp weapons and hard weapons, that definitely causes a lot of damage.


That said, Titans makes clear that the current methods of Dick (and Batman) are becoming excessive.

I don't think comic Dick ever purposefully blinded or neutered anyone.

[byrd156]

Glad we finally have some discussion back in here, it was pretty bleak for the past few months.