Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

[Konja7]

Putting Tynion on a Nightwing book is almost as bad an idea as hiring me to write Tim Dreck book. why give a book to someone who says he’s not interested in the characters? What kind of quality ideas would you expect out of that?

The original plan of Nightwing by Tynion was because DC probably doesn't have other writer or other idea for Dick at that moment. The situation for Dick after Forever Evil was similar to his situation after the shot.

However, DC chose Grayson with King and Seeley, when they have the option. So, DC still chose the best option for Dick.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

DC will never allow the Titans to be the second line of Defense they are cannon fodder

[WonderNight]

DC will never allow the Titans to be the second line of Defense they are cannon fodder

Yep the JL's are the first and last line of defense. The titans are the midcard jobbers.

[Onthetrapeze]

Yep the JL's are the first and last line of defense. The titans are the midcard jobbers.

Why can't DC just allow the Titans to do their own things？Does it really that hard to make a generation of mature yet young superheroes work?Does it really that hard to find a place to settle them between JL and YJ？

[Korath]

Why can't DC just allow the Titans to do their own things？Does it really that hard to make a generation of mature yet young superheroes work?Does it really that hard to find a place to settle them between JL and YJ？

In a word : Yes.

In a more elaborate explanation : The Titans (as in, the adult ones, since I find that the current Teen Titans is really great) are stuck between a rock (DC) and a hard place (the fans). Some fans want only a certain type of stories, with certain character : the Fab 5 as buddies like in a sitcom but leaving awesome adventures and dealing with terrifying threat. Some other fans want the NTT line up and wants to see DC redo what they did at that time.

And DC can't give them that because it wouldn't only not work, but would fail spectacularly, so it throws ideas after ideas and nothing stick. And why would it fail ? Because the success of the NTT, or even the Fab 5, or whatever incarnation of the team stem from its freshness, its novelty, unexpectedly strucking fold. But Dick Grayson can only become Nightwing for the first time in comics the very first time it does, and retreading it, or any other beats of the greatest eras of TT wouldn't work. The Judas contract was a great story, but you can't repeat it again and again and expect the same effects.

And unlike say, the X-Men, who have almost as much lasting power of the Avengers as a premiere team of hero right now, and were above them for a long time, who have a definitive feel (they are the persecuted minority trying to prove that their kind isn't monstrous by nature, etc.), with their own villains, often from the same species but taking radical different visions (Magneto wants what he think is best for the Mutants and it's annihilating Homo Sapiens in his mind; Apocalypse just want to rule everyone, etc.), the Titans can't have that. Their core members are either highly derivative of the JL (because they were sidekicks) or have stuggled for a long time to actually move beyond their NTT days (Raven = Trigon; BB = goofy kid with no growth; that's what spring to mind when either of them is involved, wether it is unjust or not).

And because of that, and DC's universe being a lot more static compared to Marvel's (even if I feel it's changing in the last few years -New 52, Rebirth, Reborn, Doomsday Clock, Metal, the NAoH No Justice, The Man of Steel, Electric Warriors... all are changing and expanding the DCU in bold new ways), adult heroes either join the JL, are separated by vast expanse of space and time (GL Corps, the Legion of Superheroes, mainly) or are left hanging in an awkward position when they form their own team -except if they chose to be vastly different from the JL (the Outlaws work, for instance, because they aren't like the JL at all, but still tries to do good in their own way).

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Because it’s a Justice League Reality and a main shared Universe based on a pantheon structure, the Justice Society are either out of existence or marginalized. This is why Immortal Men, Terrifics, Unexpected etc. fail to attract readers. The people who want a team book that is not the Justice League are first going to go for Titans/JSA who since they are marginalized more so often then not then that fan will have no interest in a new team book especially when they are given “important” tasks that should go to already established teams that need a path. This is also why Skartaris, Pytharia, Gemworld and Otherworlds are only used in events. JSA & Titans should show how people live in this world with access to other Earth Dimension especially since most are technology inferior in lifestyle with ancient advanced technology. Unitil DC creates an actual World where classic teams can exist and not be seen as threats to the JLA we will be stuck on this process. I bet Steve Orlando Future story will not sell well because how do you say this is the future when reality has yet to be settled

[Aahz]

I'm also not sure of what made the NTT successful at the time would still work to day. The NTT were imo very soapy, with a lot of of the pages being about the live of the characters out of costume. And DC had a lot of similar books during the 80s (Infinity inc. Young All-Stars, to some degree Outsiders and "Justice League Detroit"). But I'm not sure if that would still work today.

If you look for example at the current Justice League, that book has become very event driven, with almost no time devoted to the personal live of the characters, while the less event driven secondary League Books (Justice League of America, Justice League International, Justice League United), are usually not particularly successfulness.

[dietrich]

for Harley Quinn its different, nobody call her Batman lite. And Harley can join the JL but not nightwing lol.

I get what you mean Harley and Dick are not the same.
After HIC she's better than Batman. Batman is Harley-lite

Seriously though Nightwing isn't Dick Grayson's only id?

Nightwing is Batman-ish, Red Robin is Batman-lite. However any non super powered human is Batmanlike. GA, Robin, Red Hood.

Grayson was fresh and not Batman but fans complained and asked for batmanlike identity.


Fans make that criticism but when they are given an option at something different from the oh-so-common hero in costume jumping rooftops/ Hero in costume fighting crime with other costumed heroes they kick back because no finger stripes.

[Onthetrapeze]

In a word : Yes.

In a more elaborate explanation : The Titans (as in, the adult ones, since I find that the current Teen Titans is really great) are stuck between a rock (DC) and a hard place (the fans). Some fans want only a certain type of stories, with certain character : the Fab 5 as buddies like in a sitcom but leaving awesome adventures and dealing with terrifying threat. Some other fans want the NTT line up and wants to see DC redo what they did at that time.

And DC can't give them that because it wouldn't only not work, but would fail spectacularly, so it throws ideas after ideas and nothing stick. And why would it fail ? Because the success of the NTT, or even the Fab 5, or whatever incarnation of the team stem from its freshness, its novelty, unexpectedly strucking fold. But Dick Grayson can only become Nightwing for the first time in comics the very first time it does, and retreading it, or any other beats of the greatest eras of TT wouldn't work. The Judas contract was a great story, but you can't repeat it again and again and expect the same effects.

And unlike say, the X-Men, who have almost as much lasting power of the Avengers as a premiere team of hero right now, and were above them for a long time, who have a definitive feel (they are the persecuted minority trying to prove that their kind isn't monstrous by nature, etc.), with their own villains, often from the same species but taking radical different visions (Magneto wants what he think is best for the Mutants and it's annihilating Homo Sapiens in his mind; Apocalypse just want to rule everyone, etc.), the Titans can't have that. Their core members are either highly derivative of the JL (because they were sidekicks) or have stuggled for a long time to actually move beyond their NTT days (Raven = Trigon; BB = goofy kid with no growth; that's what spring to mind when either of them is involved, wether it is unjust or not).

And because of that, and DC's universe being a lot more static compared to Marvel's (even if I feel it's changing in the last few years -New 52, Rebirth, Reborn, Doomsday Clock, Metal, the NAoH No Justice, The Man of Steel, Electric Warriors... all are changing and expanding the DCU in bold new ways), adult heroes either join the JL, are separated by vast expanse of space and time (GL Corps, the Legion of Superheroes, mainly) or are left hanging in an awkward position when they form their own team -except if they chose to be vastly different from the JL (the Outlaws work, for instance, because they aren't like the JL at all, but still tries to do good in their own way).

Thanks for your reply. However, that's more like a explanation for Titans' current situation to me. I think people(i.e. the target group who buy the book)love the Titans because they see how the first generation of young heroes grow up together and become independent superheroes. Maybe Dick can only become Nightwing once, but does it mean he stops learning and fighting to be a better man and a better superhero since then?Dick Grayson in his late twenties still has problems to fix, they are just very different from those in his early Nightwing stage. The writer still can write about character growth. Why does DC think Titans can only get character growth when they are acting like a bunch of immature teenagers?If the comic readers want to read something like that they would buy YJ or TT. For the target readers of Titans, it's just disappionting regression.
That's why I think DC haven't found the right position for the Titans. The team could work and has great potential--but firstly, DC should admit their adultness.

[Onthetrapeze]

I'm also not sure of what made the NTT successful at the time would still work to day. The NTT were imo very soapy, with a lot of of the pages being about the live of the characters out of costume. And DC had a lot of similar books during the 80s (Infinity inc. Young All-Stars, to some degree Outsiders and "Justice League Detroit"). But I'm not sure if that would still work today.

If you look for example at the current Justice League, that book has become very event driven, with almost no time devoted to the personal live of the characters, while the less event driven secondary League Books (Justice League of America, Justice League International, Justice League United), are usually not particularly successfulness.

Different team members, different writers, different popularity, I would agrue they are hardly comparable.

[Onthetrapeze]

Grayson was fresh and not Batman but fans complained and asked for batmanlike identity.

Fans make that criticism but when they are given an option at something different from the oh-so-common hero in costume jumping rooftops/ Hero in costume fighting crime with other costumed heroes they kick back because no finger stripes.

One thing I always find strange: I've never met a Dick Grayson's fan who doesn't love Grayson yet kept hearing about them.

[Konja7]

Thanks for your reply. However, that's more like a explanation for Titans' current situation to me. I think people(i.e. the target group who buy the book)love the Titans because they see how the first generation of young heroes grow up together and become independent superheroes. Maybe Dick can only become Nightwing once, but does it mean he stops learning and fighting to be a better man and a better superhero since then?Dick Grayson in his late twenties still has problems to fix, they are just very different from those in his early Nightwing stage. The writer still can write about character growth. Why does DC think Titans can only get character growth when they are acting like a bunch of immature teenagers?If the comic readers want to read something like that they would buy YJ or TT. For the target readers of Titans, it's just disappionting regression.
That's why I think DC haven't found the right position for the Titans. The team could work and has great potential--but firstly, DC should admit their adultness.

There is a problem with the hierachy of Justice League and Batman. DC doesn't want to promote Titans as an adult group of superheroes, because they think Titans will be redundant to Justice League.

In the case of Dick, DC also doesn't want Batman looks old.

Actually, Dick isn't in his late twenties. In New 52, Dick is 21 years old. However, it's mentioned recently in Nightwing (although it's a guess writer) that Dick is mid-twenties. The current age of Dick is a a mystery, but DC won't let him get close to 30.

[yohyoi]

Titans comics does not have a clear purpose. It started as a Wally/OG Teen Titans book then turned into a Junior Justice League book then turned into a DC X-men book. Now, it is an Event Fallout and Character Study Book. It's simply riding whatever event DC makes and turning its' heroes into their worst selves so their is struggle in the plot. Reminds me of New52 Teen Titans where everyone was near or are unlikable. In short, a lot of mopping and more mopping.

[Onthetrapeze]

There is a problem with the hierachy of Justice League and Batman. DC doesn't want to promote Titans as an adult group of superheroes, because they think Titans will be redundant to Justice League.

In the case of Dick, DC also doesn't want Batman looks old.

Actually, Dick isn't in his late twenties. In New 52, Dick is 21 years old. However, it's mentioned recently in Nightwing (although it's a guess writer) that Dick is mid-twenties. The current age of Dick is a a mystery, but DC won't let him get close to 30.

DC's dilemmas：
1)Trying to avoid Titans being redundant to JL
-Ending up with Titans being redundant to Teen Titans

2)Insisting on making Batman's age pratical
-Ending up with Nightwing's age impractical. According to New52's timeline Dick was Batman even before he could legally drink alcohol, can you believe it？

[Onthetrapeze]

Titans comics does not have a clear purpose. It started as a Wally/OG Teen Titans book then turned into a Junior Justice League book then turned into a DC X-men book. Now, it is an Event Fallout and Character Study Book. It's simply riding whatever event DC makes and turning its' heroes into their worst selves so their is struggle in the plot. Reminds me of New52 Teen Titans where everyone was near or are unlikable. In short, a lot of mopping and more mopping.

I guess that's what happens when a franchise doesn't have its own office.