Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

[Zaresh]

ALRIGHT, I CHECKED THE SALES. Note that this is based on sales to comic book stores, meaning this is what people decided to preorder plus estimates from the comic shops on how many they should have left at the store. Preorder determined from 2 months in advance while afterthought buyers have undetermined limited time after the release date.

The sales of Nightwing has been steadily declining. It started at 125K per issue the first month of Rebirth, to 90K to 80K per issue next month, where we can eliminate the collectors and people trying out... to 65K, then got a boost to 70K with the help of Monster Men tie in.

Once on his own again, it dipped deeper to 60K, then to 55. This is the Raptor arc. Then it got steady at around 50K per issue for 2 issues. These are the only steady issues so far, and it's the Superman guest star and Nightwing moving to Bludhaven following the conclusion of Raptor arc. Then it dipped to 45K but held it steady there for 2 issues while he's in Bludhaven. The people who only stay to see the conclusion of the first story arc of Raptor is gone now.

Then to around 40K. Now for 6 issues, the dipping rate is slowing from 1K per issue to 1K per month. Considering the slowing down of the dip this should be considered what Seeley's does best on his own without tie-in or Rebirth hype. This is the Damian arc and Wally also guest star in the middle.

It's still declining at 1K per month as we returned to Bludhaven for Blockbuster introduction. I think it's safe to say the people who're only trying out Nightwing are completely out by this point. Still, by the end of this arc, it's dipped to almost 35K

Then it's back to 1K per issue in the middle of the Blockbuster arc, stabilize for 2 issues as it transition to Spyral arc, then back to dip at 1K per issue for Spyral arc. We're below 35K now. So while it's clear that Damian helps a lot at slowing down the dip, Blockbuster didn't help as much and it's safe to say preorder people don't like Spyral.

Then it got a boost to 50K with Dark Knights Metal Resistance, not surprising considering the characters involved. Not counting Metal, from Spyral to the next arc it dips 1K again, stabilizes at 31K for 2 issues, dipping 1K per issue again twice at the end of the arc. This is Raptor's Revenge arc.

Sam Humphries enter now. We're below 30K now but from Raptor's Revenge to The Judge there's no change. After that the dipping rate slows to 1K per month instead of bi-weekly, stabilizing at 27K for 3 issues. Not as enthusiastic as Damian but people are ok with the Judge or Humphries. Until they finally had enough and it dipped 1K again at the final act. We're at 26K. Damian's back to keep the number stay at 26K. Also Roy.

At this point, they decided to go monthly. Makes sense. The number is still at 26K. The beginning of Dark Web. Nightwing vs Hush gets 55K but Nightwing Dark Web still at 26K. Now flatlining at 26K, with Annual only selling at 22K.

There it is.

PS: The monthly dip maybe caused by people already started preordering both issues but don't follow up the next month.

So. Simplest Conclusion Without Much Thought.
Without Rebirth hype or people who are just trying out, Nightwing is dipping at 10-15K per issue rate. People are either not interested in Raptor or The Parliament or the art or the writing.
With Bludhaven, the dip slowed at 1K per issue, but it lost 5K that's still interested in Raptor or Parliament type story.
With Damian, the dip slowed at 1K per month.
Without Damian, The Judge or Sam Humphries has been the best stabilizer for 3 issues
Followed by Raptor and Blockbuster who stabilize for 2
So since people are okay with Raptor, seems like The Parliament and the story involve them factor in losing 10-15K per issue.
People don't like Spyral.
The 22K is the hardcore fans.

So fans who pre-order at comic stores like Damian, okay with the main villains especially Raptor, but not interested in Spyral. I don't know what the digital or trade buyers think.

I don't blame anyone who loses interest over the course of the run. That's personal preference. I don't blame DC for trying out different writers. Nightwing is losing 1K per issue/month until only the 22-26K hardcore fans are left.

Injecting Nightwing with events or guest stars, however, is just band-aid. It's not permanent. It also doesn't mean people are not leaving, it's just that they bring in fans of those characters to replace the ones who leave. Once the band-aid's lifted, it's back to leaking 1K again.

So DC decided to change Nightwing fundamentally and they decided to go with amnesia.

Nightwing #50 will sell high because it ties with Batman and people want to see what happens, but there's no guarantee that changing a character fundamentally will work well with hardcore Dick Grayson or Nightwing fans, especially since these are the preorder guys. I think people will stay interested in where this goes, but I don't know how many new readers and curious old readers compared with the others.

Since I only have data on preorder sales, I don't have any legit suggestion. The only suggestion I have right now to help stabilize sales for preorder crowd but not improving it is to always partner Dick with Damian and keep producing villains with personal ties to Dick Grayson

Oh but for improvement maybe get him out of Bludhaven since we lost that 5K in the month he decided to get in. Though this could also be just people wanting to finish the first story arc before leaving.

Wow. This is a lot of work, and very useful. I didn't know NW was losing so many readers perissue, or that it was doingway worse than at the begining even. I didn't know the Spiral arc has doine so... not good, tha was a surprise. Damian partnering upping the sales, not so muc: they have a great chemistry and it's also like having Dickbats again, so ther is a nostalgia factor, but also, it's usually really fun to read.

Thanks for all the work. Wow!

[Onthetrapeze]

Yes Wally was completely ignored, but Donna and Miss Martian did shed a tear for Dick. Garth was upset, Dick was the only reason why he joined. The Titans feel they have no direction without Dick.

Attachment 72084Attachment 72085

Urrrrrgh Titans was so f#&ked up by DC.

[Rakiduam]

Do you really need to sound so condescending?

The post is a good effort for a forum like this. It not only gives a mild analysis: it puts data on the table and in perspective. Something that is interesting by itself alone.

Especially because it gives some insight in how big the core base of readers is nowadays, as limited as the data could be. I was surprised the book was doing only around 26k, honestly. I would have expected more like 35k.

You can post a more in depth analysis or more data if you want: it would be really interesting, to me, at least.

No I don't, I'm sorry, I'm just tired of this.

It doesn't provides perspective or insight, as it as already set on a point of view: "the book sell or not sell according the plot involved", nor I think is a good effort as ignores data.

I already have a point of view set too, no book can sell with editorial against it. I think is a wonder Nightwing sells 26K on this circumstances, in a state of perpetual doover bevore the stories actually finish, with Nightwing isolated or reduced as he is in Titans.

[Konja7]

Although I agree that Editorial treats Nightwing / Dick Grayson very badly (if he gets a very good team, they will move this team to another comic), I don't think the change of writers and artists is the only reason why the sales are low.

It seems to be a lack of quality in the stories of Nightwing.

I start reading Nightwing in New 52 (although I read some of his stories as Batman), so I almost don't know how his previous adventures as Nightwing were (I heard that Nightwing by Chuck Dixon was good).

No that doesn't make sense. I want each issue to do random stories with no consistency in terms of character, continuity, or story. That's why I read comics.

Well, I was once told that I shouldn't read comics for consistency and continuity, since it seems to be a lack of both in many comics. It seems true.

[Badou]

The sales across the board are low for DC. Maybe outside Flash and King's Batman I don't think any of the books are stable. It is why DC is shaking up so much.

My only real issue is that I don't think that the fundamental problems Nightwing has had since the New 52 will be fixed or addressed with whatever DC is doign. His history is still a mess, he is massively irrelevant in the DCU and has no place in the DCU, and Bludhaven has not worked and they continue to fail at finding a direction for him in Bludhaven, or a stable direction in general I guess too. It just feels like they don't know what to do with the character and I don't really see that changing any time soon. With Dick's generation also being on the outs again with management I don't see DC giving a lot of support to Dick's character as well.

[oasis1313]

ALRIGHT, I CHECKED THE SALES. Note that this is based on sales to comic book stores, meaning this is what people decided to preorder plus estimates from the comic shops on how many they should have left at the store. Preorder determined from 2 months in advance while afterthought buyers have undetermined limited time after the release date.

The sales of Nightwing has been steadily declining. It started at 125K per issue the first month of Rebirth, to 90K to 80K per issue next month, where we can eliminate the collectors and people trying out... to 65K, then got a boost to 70K with the help of Monster Men tie in.

Once on his own again, it dipped deeper to 60K, then to 55. This is the Raptor arc. Then it got steady at around 50K per issue for 2 issues. These are the only steady issues so far, and it's the Superman guest star and Nightwing moving to Bludhaven following the conclusion of Raptor arc. Then it dipped to 45K but held it steady there for 2 issues while he's in Bludhaven. The people who only stay to see the conclusion of the first story arc of Raptor is gone now.

Then to around 40K. Now for 6 issues, the dipping rate is slowing from 1K per issue to 1K per month. Considering the slowing down of the dip this should be considered what Seeley's does best on his own without tie-in or Rebirth hype. This is the Damian arc and Wally also guest star in the middle.

It's still declining at 1K per month as we returned to Bludhaven for Blockbuster introduction. I think it's safe to say the people who're only trying out Nightwing are completely out by this point. Still, by the end of this arc, it's dipped to almost 35K

Then it's back to 1K per issue in the middle of the Blockbuster arc, stabilize for 2 issues as it transition to Spyral arc, then back to dip at 1K per issue for Spyral arc. We're below 35K now. So while it's clear that Damian helps a lot at slowing down the dip, Blockbuster didn't help as much and it's safe to say preorder people don't like Spyral.

Then it got a boost to 50K with Dark Knights Metal Resistance, not surprising considering the characters involved. Not counting Metal, from Spyral to the next arc it dips 1K again, stabilizes at 31K for 2 issues, dipping 1K per issue again twice at the end of the arc. This is Raptor's Revenge arc.

Sam Humphries enter now. We're below 30K now but from Raptor's Revenge to The Judge there's no change. After that the dipping rate slows to 1K per month instead of bi-weekly, stabilizing at 27K for 3 issues. Not as enthusiastic as Damian but people are ok with the Judge or Humphries. Until they finally had enough and it dipped 1K again at the final act. We're at 26K. Damian's back to keep the number stay at 26K. Also Roy.

At this point, they decided to go monthly. Makes sense. The number is still at 26K. The beginning of Dark Web. Nightwing vs Hush gets 55K but Nightwing Dark Web still at 26K. Now flatlining at 26K, with Annual only selling at 22K.

There it is.

PS: The monthly dip maybe caused by people already started preordering both issues but don't follow up the next month.

So. Simplest Conclusion Without Much Thought.
Without Rebirth hype or people who are just trying out, Nightwing is dipping at 10-15K per issue rate. People are either not interested in Raptor or The Parliament or the art or the writing.
With Bludhaven, the dip slowed at 1K per issue, but it lost 5K that's still interested in Raptor or Parliament type story.
With Damian, the dip slowed at 1K per month.
Without Damian, The Judge or Sam Humphries has been the best stabilizer for 3 issues
Followed by Raptor and Blockbuster who stabilize for 2
So since people are okay with Raptor, seems like The Parliament and the story involve them factor in losing 10-15K per issue.
People don't like Spyral.
The 22K is the hardcore fans.

So fans who pre-order at comic stores like Damian, okay with the main villains especially Raptor, but not interested in Spyral. I don't know what the digital or trade buyers think.

I don't blame anyone who loses interest over the course of the run. That's personal preference. I don't blame DC for trying out different writers. Nightwing is losing 1K per issue/month until only the 22-26K hardcore fans are left.

Injecting Nightwing with events or guest stars, however, is just band-aid. It's not permanent. It also doesn't mean people are not leaving, it's just that they bring in fans of those characters to replace the ones who leave. Once the band-aid's lifted, it's back to leaking 1K again.

So DC decided to change Nightwing fundamentally and they decided to go with amnesia.

Nightwing #50 will sell high because it ties with Batman and people want to see what happens, but there's no guarantee that changing a character fundamentally will work well with hardcore Dick Grayson or Nightwing fans, especially since these are the preorder guys. I think people will stay interested in where this goes, but I don't know how many new readers and curious old readers compared with the others.

Since I only have data on preorder sales, I don't have any legit suggestion. The only suggestion I have right now to help stabilize sales for preorder crowd but not improving it is to always partner Dick with Damian and keep producing villains with personal ties to Dick Grayson

Oh but for improvement maybe get him out of Bludhaven since we lost that 5K in the month he decided to get in. Though this could also be just people wanting to finish the first story arc before leaving.

I really appreciate your excellent research and analysis! DC should hire you for their marketing department!!!!!

[Restingvoice]

Comic sales in general have natural deflation and leveling off periods. That sales pattern is rather ordinary. The double ship also complicates things a bit.

I only watched Nightwing sales so I wouldn't know about that. Since the longest and most stable dip is 1K per issue or month that sounds like the natural deflation you're talking about.

very poor a analysis that doesn't consider artists by the way

I didn't mention the artists because I noticed that sales can continue to dip in the middle of a story arc that has the same artist and some issue sales remain stable even as they transition to a different artist. Art are usually consistent, as in, people know what to expect after seeing an issue featuring the art, while opinions on stories can change from issue to issue if people see development they don't like. So I saw that and realized the art isn't that big of factor compared to the story.

It doesn't provides perspective or insight, as it as already set on a point of view: "the book sell or not sell according the plot involved"

I didn't set that point of view until after I recorded the sale numbers. I drew that conclusion based on the changes that happened to the book, be it writer, the artist, the guest star, some plot elements, and so on.

I can't really include DC editorial issue here, because that information isn't clear. The only time I can say that editorial interference happened was the amnesia stuff where the writer walks out. Seeley worked together with King during Monster Men, and his Dr. Hurt arc already concluded before he started writing Metal tie-in, and it actually relates to Metal. So for all I know there's no disruption until now since he had enough time to prepare and his stories weren't cut off.

Thank you for everyone who like it. I was curious and annoyed at Nightwing comic state so I just did that to try if I can make sense of things. It's more of a thing I did for myself, though I do want to share it here since other people can offer different suggestions.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

While I appreciate people checking retail sales like this, I just wanted to note that it ignores The New Order, which made for 3 monthly issues for Nightwing at a time and was definitely responsible for splitting the fanbase in terms of sales.

The New Order is also an important book to look at, as it's the first ever Nightwing-focused Elseworlds story. Just comparing how it sold at how it sold compared to how little DC marketed it, and what it might mean about DC and Nightwing readers, is pretty interesting imo.

[Restingvoice]

While I appreciate people checking retail sales like this, I just wanted to note that it ignores The New Order, which made for 3 monthly issues for Nightwing at a time and was definitely responsible for splitting the fanbase in terms of sales.

The New Order is also an important book to look at, as it's the first ever Nightwing-focused Elseworlds story. Just comparing how it sold at how it sold compared to how little DC marketed it, and what it might mean about DC and Nightwing readers, is pretty interesting imo.

Oh, I didn't count that since what I want to see is if there's a major cause of losing sales in the main line.

Let's see... issue #1 is 32K while the regular Nightwing was dipping from 34K to 33K in the middle of Spyral arc. So it's still dipping at 1K per issue.
New Order #2 is 25K so it lost a lot of audience who was interested at first while the regular Nightwing issue is relatively stable as we enter the Raptor Revenge arc. Then it continue to dip to 23K. After that both regular Nightwing and New Order dipped 1K per issue excepting what I already mentioned, until New Order ended at 21K while regular Nightwing is stabilizing during that 3 issues of Humphries Run at 28K.

So assuming everything sold out, about 7K people were turned off by the first issue and about 1K people were not interested in this Elseworld in the first place, which increase to 7K by the time it ended.

[Badou]

Also you can look at the recent Nightwing Annual sales and see how it compares to the normal issues. Typically if an Annual sells about 10% lower than the normal issues it is looked at as a success, and I think the recent Nightwing Annual only sold 8.5% lower meaning that slightly more than usual that buy the normal Nightwing issues also bought the annual. So it did well.

[oasis1313]

If DC gave Nightwing the push he deserves, they'd have to rename their "Trinity": "The Quartet."

[WonderNight]

If DC gave Nightwing the push he deserves, they'd have to rename their "Trinity": "The Quartet."

This man speaks the truth .

[Restingvoice]

Also you can look at the recent Nightwing Annual sales and see how it compares to the normal issues. Typically if an Annual sells about 10% lower than the normal issues it is looked at as a success, and I think the recent Nightwing Annual only sold 8.5% lower meaning that slightly more than usual that buy the normal Nightwing issues also bought the annual. So it did well.

Yeah, it was 26K to 22K.

I'm just surprised that the sales can go down that far. I really want to make a comparison chart with other titles but that's too much work :P

This looks to me that people are interested in Nightwing, or at least the stores expect people to be interested in Nightwing, but either the content has been disappointing so it keeps losing audience at a relatively steady rate or the stores overestimate how many people actually interested in buying his books.

[Badou]

Yeah, it was 26K to 22K.

I'm just surprised that the sales can go down that far. I really want to make a comparison chart with other titles because I see The Flash Rebirth started at 25K but now he's at 48K. Red Hood started at 88K and now 21K. Batman, of course can maintain its audience above 100K.

That's too much work though :P

This looks to me that people are interested in Nightwing, or at least the stores expect people to be interested in Nightwing, but either the content has been disappointing so it keeps losing audience at a relatively steady rate or the stores overestimate how many people actually interested in buying his books.

Nightwing has typically been an over performing brand/title compared to the amount DC invests in it I think, despite the book not doing as well currently. It is sadly one of the reasons they don't put more investment in it because in their eyes it does better than what they expect. So they don't see the need. Plus I don't really see that many big creators being super passionate about having a Nightwing run. They tend to set their eyes higher.

A while back I was tracking the Rebirth series trade sales and looking at the end of 2017 Rebirth trade sales Nightwing's Vol.1 was only behind Batman Vol.1 (it is Batman so you expect high sales), Flash Vol.1 (had a major boost from the Rebirth special involving Flash), Wonder Woman Vol.1 (she had a movie that came out and Rucka's big return to the book) Batman/Flash: The Button (big crossover story), and was just behind Harley Quinn Vol.1 who DC promotes a lot. So Nightwing Vol.1 beat Justice League, Superman, Detective Comics, Action Comics, Green Lantern, Suicide Squad, and so on. Sure, some of it has to do with the nostalgia of the blue suit returning and Bludhaven I'd guess, but it is still impressive that it beat those bigger titles and properties that DC promotes a lot more.

I would love to see DC put an all star creative team on the book and promote it a bit more and see how well it would do, but I don't think they would ever do that outside Nightwing getting a TV show or movie where they feel they can capitalize on it that way.

[Konja7]

I would love to see DC put an all star creative team on the book and promote it a bit more and see how well it would do, but I don't think they would ever do that outside Nightwing getting a TV show or movie where they feel they can capitalize on it that way.

Can DC comics capitalize Nightwing if he get a popular TV show or movie?

I've understood that the success of movies (like Marvel) don't really increase a lot the number of comic readers. Successful movies attract new audience, but it's difficult they can enter on comics.

Of course, WB and DC entertaiment will be benefit with a successful Nightwing movie, so DC may invest more in the character.