Logan: Wolverine Appreciation 2018

[Vishop]

Origins doesn't have the more natural plot, althougth i'm not surprised that Logan developed a crush on her, especially considering his age. Rose definetly didn't feel the same way thougth

Well that was the reason why i felt that his crush over Rose(as u mentioned) kind of being forced and that to be mentioned that's one of the reasons he had dreams of Rose.
And as Rover explained i think the only reason why Logan remembered her was the the reason Rose was killed by his own hands therefore yeah maybe Cornell's rose tatoo felt kind of s@#! but least explained that he remembers her due to the guilt of her being killed by him .

Oh, i definetly don't think that there wasn't anything wrong with Logan/Jean before the movies, going after another man's woman isn't a good thing no matter how you sliced it, it gets worse when you consider than this people are supposed to be family, it was always unhealthy, just that as i said, i think that it got worst post-2001, the whole thing was concluded in 1993, we didn't need it more.

Well if u really think loving a person , who is not married and even has feelings and attraction for someone is wrong then i don't how to explain this to u . And the thing is ,as i mentioned previously , he still has feelings for her even though he said he was happy for her life but he didn't attended Jean's wedding . After that he never interfered in their marriage life after that . UNTIL when Jean said in Morrison run that she has feelings for him but Logan still denied during that run and even said that Scott still loves her , no matter what has happened with him , when she was dying on the spacecraft .
And for the record having dreams is natural therefore ur assumptions about his obsessions being unhealthy is not applicable here .

[Vishop]

I think Origin suffered from bad writing all around. But on the other hand I can see a relationship changing from a brother/sister thing or just friendship to something romantic as they get older since children aren't going to have romantic feelings yet. But yes the thing with Rose did feel forced.

Some writers have taken the thing with Jean too far and turned it into an obsession, but imo it never was supposed to be an unhealthy obsession. The fact that Logan never interfered in her marriage is a proof of that. As for the dreams...I think it's absolutely normal to have dreams about someone who died, especially if there was trauma involved. He could dream about her because of guilt at not being able to save her and not because of an obsession.

I personally love how the original story with Mariko was written, but other than that I think writers have never been able to create good romantic storylines for Logan. It's like they just add a woman in the story to show how tortured he is or to make him suffer.

I totally agree with u man ! I think the only reason why there are no good storylines with Logan having good relationships is that writers never cared him being in any healthy relationship with exception of Mariko .

[TheCape]

Well that was the reason why i felt that his crush over Rose(as u mentioned) kind of being forced and that to be mentioned that's one of the reasons he had dreams of Rose.
And as Rover explained i think the only reason why Logan remembered her was the the reason Ross was killed by his own hands therefore yeah maybe Cornell's rose tatoo felt kind of s@#! but least explained that he remembers her due to the guilt of being killed by her .


Well if u really think loving a person , who is not married and even has feelings and attraction for someone is wrong then i don't how to explain this to u . And the thing is ,as i mentioned previously , he still has feelings for her even though he said he was happy for her life but he didn't attended Jean's wedding . After that he never interfered in their marriage life after that . UNTIL when Jean said in Morrison run that she has feelings for him but Logan still denied during that run and even said that Scott still loves her , no matter what has happened with him , when she was dying on the spacecraft .
And for the record having dreams is natural therefore ur assumptions about his obsessions being unhealthy is not applicable here .

I call it unhealthy because Logan usually come across like a creep, just read Classic X-Men #1 and tell me than that doesn't look like sexual harrasment, loving a person is fine, trying to force yourself in a person that is in stable relationship with other man is not, Jean also has her share of blame on it for kissing him during X-Tincion Agenda. Also during Morrison run Jean was confused and hurt for Scott shutting her down, not because she was in love with him, Logan knew that, he knew that if he allow things to go further in that forest, she would regret it, she is looking for comfort in the wrong place, plus Logan self loathing for being the cause of many death women in his life, hence why Logan rejects her, she doesn't really want him (even if she cares about him depply) and he thinks that he is not good enougth.

Edit: Eh, forget that last part.

[Rover]

I call it unhealthy because Logan usually come across like a creep, just read Classic X-Men #1 and tell me than that doesn't look like sexual harrasment, loving a person is fine, trying to force yourself in a person that is in stable relationship with other man is not, Jean also has her share of blame on it for kissing him during X-Tincion Agenda. Also during Morrison run Jean was confused and hurt for Scott shutting her down, not because she was in love with him, Logan knew that, he knew that if he allow things to go further in that forest, she would regret it, she is looking for comfort in the wrong place, plus Logan self loathing for being the cause of many death women in his life, hence why Logan rejects her, she doesn't really want him (even if she cares about him depply) and he thinks that he is not good enougth. Also aren't you changing your tune a bit?, like you said that it was unheañthy before because of the dreams and now is not?. Or i'm reading you wrong?.

The problem is with how inconsistent the characterization of Logan and of the relationship has been over the years. If you look at the early stuff it's kind of unclear if Wolverine is meant to be a good guy and he definitely has that threatening thing going on about him. I remember Jean admitting she had feelings and then denying it...but yes Logan did come across as creepy in the early stuff. And not just with Jean.

I think they kind of struggled with this characterization until they gave him a backstory. The debate here is not between people who see it as healthy or unhealthy. It's between two types of readers, Classic X-Men left a stronger impression on some of them, and the 'newer' stories that addressed the Jean/Logan thing left a stronger impression on the other readers. It is weird for Logan to stay stuck on someone for so long, but he is definitely not a mentally healthy person. There was that kiss when they thought they were going to die, which read as a natural reaction to a very messed up situation. Other than that, Logan has respected the marriage and not done anything inappropriate that I can think of for decades.

[TheCape]

The problem is with how inconsistent the characterization of Logan and of the relationship has been over the years. If you look at the early stuff it's kind of unclear if Wolverine is meant to be a good guy and he definitely has that threatening thing going on about him. I remember Jean admitting she had feelings and then denying it...but yes Logan did come across as creepy in the early stuff. And not just with Jean.

I think they kind of struggled with this characterization until they gave him a backstory. The debate here is not between people who see it as healthy or unhealthy. It's between two types of readers, Classic X-Men left a stronger impression on some of them, and the 'newer' stories that addressed the Jean/Logan thing left a stronger impression on the other readers. It is weird for Logan to stay stuck on someone for so long, but he is definitely not a mentally healthy person. There was that kiss when they thought they were going to die, which read as a natural reaction to a very messed up situation. Other than that, Logan has respected the marriage and not done anything inappropriate that I can think of for decades.

Fair enougth and to be fair, when it comes to certain characthers in the 80s a lot of the flirting could come across as...well predatory, kind of how people see Sean Connery Bond these days. I supposed that is just the change values over time. But yeah, for the most part Logan didn't do anything inappropiate.

[Vishop]

I call it unhealthy because Logan usually come across like a creep, just read Classic X-Men #1 and tell me than that doesn't look like sexual harrasment, loving a person is fine, trying to force yourself in a person that is in stable relationship with other man is not,

Oh yeah , if u havent read the whole context yet , he said that that she should stay away from her during Classic X-Men #1 and i felt that was more or less flirting which was being shown couple of no of times ,especially with Storm during Astonishing X-Men . And if u really think that he didn't really loved her then not only Fatal Attractions but how about when for the first time he showed that he has feelings ( or love) for her during X-Men run and that happened after Classic X-Men #1 i presume.

Jean also has her share of blame on it for kissing him during X-Tincion Agenda. Also during Morrison run Jean was confused and hurt for Scott shutting her down, not because she was in love with him, Logan knew that, he knew that if he allow things to go further in that forest, she would regret it, she is looking for comfort in the wrong place, plus Logan self loathing for being the cause of many death women in his life, hence why Logan rejects her, she doesn't really want him (even if she cares about him depply) and he thinks that he is not good enougth. Also aren't you changing your tune a bit?, like you said that it was unheañthy before because of the dreams and now is not?. Or i'm reading you wrong?.

Well i never said he loved her but the fact i already mentioned before that she has feelings(or he has a special place in her heart) for him therefore i don't see why u think she shouldn't share her feelings about her life with him.
And yeah i was wrong about that before but Rover did say some valuable pts about his obsession therefore i apologize for any inconvenience their .

[Vishop]

I am not against Logan's relationship with Jean but writers never tend make to make this any type of healthy relationship since it was somehow inconsistent with both Logan and Jean's point of view therefore i can't really see any thing but dead end with this relationship and it's not better to make this move forward . But least i will never deny that he loved her .

[TheCape]

Oh yeah , if u havent read the whole context yet , he said that that she should stay away from her during Classic X-Men #1 and i felt that was more or less flirting which was being shown couple of no of times ,especially with Storm during Astonishing X-Men . And if u really think that he didn't really loved her then not only Fatal Attractions but how about when for the first time he showed that he has feelings ( or love) for her during X-Men run and that happened after Classic X-Men #1 i presume.




Well i never said he loved her but the fact i already mentioned before that she has feelings(or he has a special place in her heart) for him therefore i don't see why u think she shouldn't share her feelings about her life with him.
And yeah i was wrong about that before but Rover did say some valuable pts about his obsession therefore i apologize for any inconvenience their .

I did read it, and althougth Logan does admit his wrongdoing, that isn't really a good base for then, maybe the intention was to present it as flirting but is still not a good thing (plus again, she going out with another guy). Also, i never said that he didn't love her, you can love a person and love then deeply, but that doesn't mean that pursue then in a romantic way is a good thing, Logan did love her before Fattal Attractions, he said it many times in the 86 to 90 CC run on X-Men.

Talking to Logan wasn't really the problem, he is a friend, he has supported her in the past and still has some feellings for her, similar to Warren during the O5 days, the problem is when she try to initiate intimacy while still being married, that's a pretty crappy thing to do, granted is understandable that she felt that way, but it doesn't justify what she did, honestly, is good that Logan stopped things before it went further, she would have regret it.

[TheCape]

I am not against Logan's relationship with Jean but writers never tend make to make this any type of healthy relationship since it was somehow inconsistent with both Logan and Jean's point of view therefore i can't really see any thing but dead end with this relationship and it's not better to make this move forward . But least i will never deny that he loved her .

I think that we can both agreed on this 100%

[Rover]

Fair enougth and to be fair, when it comes to certain characthers in the 80s a lot of the flirting could come across as...well predatory, kind of how people see Sean Connery Bond these days. I supposed that is just the change values over time. But yeah, for the most part Logan didn't do anything inappropiate.

Totally agree! Some of X-Men comics from the 70s and 80s have panels that make me cringe. I think Logan was originally meant to be that feral man with a predatory vibe and am wondering if they were toying with the idea of making him a bad guy when they introduced him. Eventually he became the 'rough but likeable' guy. I think him getting his own book had a lot to do with how the characterization changed.

I am not against Logan's relationship with Jean but writers never tend make to make this any type of healthy relationship since it was somehow inconsistent with both Logan and Jean's point of view therefore i can't really see any thing but dead end with this relationship and it's not better to make this move forward . But least i will never deny that he loved her .

I don't think any writer has ever been interested in actually having a relationship between the two. They just write these feelings into the story to give Logan some sort of depth and have him suffer, but it feels like a cheap trick after a while.

[TheCape]

Totally agree! Some of X-Men comics from the 70s and 80s have panels that make me cringe. I think Logan was originally meant to be that feral man with a predatory vibe and am wondering if they were toying with the idea of making him a bad guy when they introduced him. Eventually he became the 'rough but likeable' guy. I think him getting his own book had a lot to do with how the characterization changed.



I don't think any writer has ever been interested in actually having a relationship between the two. They just write these feelings into the story to give Logan some sort of depth and have him suffer, but it feels like a cheap trick after a while.

Originally he was mean to be a sort of counterpoint to Cyclops, the anti-authority guy and the Namor to the Reed/Sue that Jott represented in the X-Franchise, Claremont really didn't knew what to do with him, until Byrne came along and started to add him some depth, wicth led him to be more popular and Claremont in the 80s decided to balance his berserker animalistic rage with his ties to Japan (stablished by Byrne in UXM #116) and make him a more apealling characther, a man that is not the most nicer person out there, but had a genuine desire for change, that's what has define him from the Wolverine mini until the early 2000s.

[Vishop]

I think that we can both agreed on this 100%

Well blame those writers who always bring this cr!@ with Logan again and again LOL

[TheCape]

Well blame those writers who always bring this cr!@ with Logan again and again LOL

True, lets hope that the future is bright for him lol.

[Vishop]

I did read it, and althougth Logan does admit his wrongdoing, that isn't really a good base for then, maybe the intention was to present it as flirting but is still not a good thing (plus again, she going out with another guy). Also, i never said that he didn't love her, you can love a person and love then deeply, but that doesn't mean that pursue then in a romantic way is a good thing, Logan did love her before Fattal Attractions, he said it many times in the 86 to 90 CC run on X-Men.

Well all this things happened time and time again but his recent conversation with Scott showed that Logan said Jean should be her women and not Logan's therefore it doesn't really matter whether he has feelings for her or not , it will end Jean and Scott .

Talking to Logan wasn't really the problem, he is a friend, he has supported her in the past and still has some feellings for her, similar to Warren during the O5 days, the problem is when she try to initiate intimacy while still being married, that's a pretty crappy thing to do, granted is understandable that she felt that way, but it doesn't justify what she did, honestly, is good that Logan stopped things before it went further, she would have regret it.

Well it didn't really explained whether Jean was making her way for Logan to kiss him but the kiss felt quite mutual until Logan stopped since as u said Logan knws she was married to Scott .

[Vishop]

Totally agree! Some of X-Men comics from the 70s and 80s have panels that make me cringe. I think Logan was originally meant to be that feral man with a predatory vibe and am wondering if they were toying with the idea of making him a bad guy when they introduced him. Eventually he became the 'rough but likeable' guy. I think him getting his own book had a lot to do with how the characterization changed.



I don't think any writer has ever been interested in actually having a relationship between the two. They just write these feelings into the story to give Logan some sort of depth and have him suffer, but it feels like a cheap trick after a while.

Yeah that was the case why Logan's life has been dark especially when u see OML's life is full of chaos after what happened with Mysterio , writers find this things more enticing and entertaining and nothing more .