Scott Summers: Cyclops Appreciation 2018

[Triniking1234]

Oh yeah, her. I've heard of her. Who is that?

You use it to season chicken.

[lancer]

Madelyne was literally the part of Jean that loved Scott, extracted by the Phoenix. The "real" Jean put in stasis and later resurrected for X-Factor was the leftover parts. IIRC, CC even had Jean outright say that's why Scott and Jean's marriage failed--separated from Madelyne, she didn't really love him anymore and gravitated toward Logan instead.

But, that retcon creates its own problems. It means that the part of Jean that loves Scott is what became Dark Phoenix and committed mass murder before reincarnating as Madelyne. And, while Maddie's culpability for Inferno* is debatable due to demonic influence, she's still on the hook for her actions in the X-Men: The End minis.

*For the record, I do think Maddie got a raw deal at the end of Inferno. I think CC and Weezi should've tweaked the ending such that, instead of Madelyne killing herself, she, Jean, and the Phoenix worked together to purge the Goblin Queen persona from her. Then, instead of Jean just getting her and "Phoenix-Jean"'s memories and a temporary case of multiple personality disorder, Jean and Madelyne should've truly merged into a single person. The body (Jean) and the soul (Madelyne) combined, making Jean truly whole and enabling her to move forward with Scott and Nathan as a family.

I saw the some pages from X MEN THE END online. I saw the panels about the part of Jean that loved Scott the most was in Maddie. I call bullshit. Jean came back in X FACTOR and loved Scott the same way she had always loved Scott. Make no mistake, there are all sorts of complications with Maddie and Phoenix. However, that doesn't change how Jean, at her core, on a fundamental level, felt about Scott.

This narrative that Jean is somehow missing a substantial part of herself in the first 38 issues of X FACTOR is nowhere in the text. None of the other originals ever talk about Jean being different. This is Jean, the Jean they grew up with and had always known. Was she Phoenix Jean? No, but at the time the point was that wasn't Jean. That was a changed Jean. The characters speak about it numerous times.

Does X FACTOR Jean ever talk about feeling less than whole, less than complete? Not to me recollection. Now, what was taken from Jean when Phoenix made the duplicate body was certainly interpreted different ways by Simonson and Claremont. Hell, Claremont's CLASSIC X MEN 8 has a tiny spark left behind left behind in the old body. Essentially moving Jean into the new body and, IMO, defeating the entire purpose of the retcon. But that is most certainly how Jean's regular handlers, the people who wrote her monthly in X FACTOR, handled it.

After INFERNO, did Jean talk about how she now felt complete and whole again because she was now integrated with 2 people who were essentially her? Not in any book I read. It's portrayed as a battle between 3 distinct people, 3 distinct psyches. Until the end of Judgement Wars.

In my mind, Maddie was not Jean. She was a clone of Jean. Stryfe is a clone of Cable, but he's not Cable. A piece of Jean's life force is what animated Maddie originally. I've used this analogy before. In X MEN TAS, Phoenix takes some life force from all the other X Men to restore Jean to life. Jean did not suddenly become Jean/Scott/Logan/Ororo/Rogue/Gambit. She is still Jean. That is how I view Maddie. It's not like she woke up with Jean's memories or acted just like Jean. Well, she was strong the way many Claremont woman were strong. Punching Scott in the mouth.

I'm not against the idea that Maddie be revealed as Jean way back when. Not by the time of Inferno, though. By that time I thought that ship had sailed. Why did they do what they did at the end of INFERNO? Beats me. To complicate Jean's life and the JOTT dynamic? But I certainly didn't interpret it as, Jean's now a full and complete person as opposed to the first 37 plus issues. And I don't think that was Simonson's intention.

Claremont, in THE END, is doing what Morrison did. Stop trying to retroactively deconstruct something that worked. It worked after she came back. We saw it on panel. For the 100th time, if you were bound and determined to do it, you do it moving forward. Scott came back different after Apocalypse. They don't work anymore because he's different. Certainly, I would still intensely dislike it, but I would objectively concede it as workable. Trying to tell me that Scott and Jean were just "going through the motions" post 1986, IMO, flies in the face of just WAY too much that we saw on panel.

Lastly, since this is a Cyclops thread. In the comics I read, I don't recall ever thinking that any of Claremont's anti Cyclops bias coming out. How much did he even write him? He was never his primary writer post 1986. I'll say this. He scripted X FACTOR 65-68. IMO, as well as Cyclops is handled that entire run.

Jean/Logan/Scott is a different matter. I do believe his bias showed there, but again he is not Jean or Scott's primary handler. And it's why this supposed triangle was so overrated. It's a game he's mostly playing by himself. I don't think Lobdell ever mentioned it. Simonson and Nicieza did, but very briefly.

I didn't read X MEN FOREVER or THE END, except for a couple pages online. The former I view as an alternate AU. It's Claremont's universe, let him do what he wants. I suppose THE END could be viewed as one possible future.

All I know is this guy wrote a bunch of my favorite Cyclops stories. I'm not telling you he'd be my number 1 choice at this point. However, Morrison or Claremont, who do I want? Claremont by a mile.

[wano]

Oh yeah, her. I've heard of her. Who is that?

I've heard you sage to slide a thread on 4chan... Oh wait I remember, the mission support and computer expert in the gifted, she ain't on par with Lorna or blink or the Stepfords tough

[Gray Lensman]

I've heard you sage to slide a thread on 4chan... Oh wait I remember, the mission support and computer expert in the gifted, she ain't on par with Lorna or blink or the Stepfords tough

Sage is best known on these boards for being retconned into having always been working for Xavier so Claremont could have an 'original X-Man' on the book he was writing.

It isn't a good look considering how she helped the Hellfire Club escape capture, considering what they eventually did.

[JeisonWolf]

I saw the some pages from X MEN THE END online. I saw the panels about the part of Jean that loved Scott the most was in Maddie. I call bullshit. Jean came back in X FACTOR and loved Scott the same way she had always loved Scott. Make no mistake, there are all sorts of complications with Maddie and Phoenix. However, that doesn't change how Jean, at her core, on a fundamental level, felt about Scott.

This narrative that Jean is somehow missing a substantial part of herself in the first 38 issues of X FACTOR is nowhere in the text. None of the other originals ever talk about Jean being different. This is Jean, the Jean they grew up with and had always known. Was she Phoenix Jean? No, but at the time the point was that wasn't Jean. That was a changed Jean. The characters speak about it numerous times.

Does X FACTOR Jean ever talk about feeling less than whole, less than complete? Not to me recollection. Now, what was taken from Jean when Phoenix made the duplicate body was certainly interpreted different ways by Simonson and Claremont. Hell, Claremont's CLASSIC X MEN 8 has a tiny spark left behind left behind in the old body. Essentially moving Jean into the new body and, IMO, defeating the entire purpose of the retcon. But that is most certainly how Jean's regular handlers, the people who wrote her monthly in X FACTOR, handled it.

After INFERNO, did Jean talk about how she now felt complete and whole again because she was now integrated with 2 people who were essentially her? Not in any book I read. It's portrayed as a battle between 3 distinct people, 3 distinct psyches. Until the end of Judgement Wars.

In my mind, Maddie was not Jean. She was a clone of Jean. Stryfe is a clone of Cable, but he's not Cable. A piece of Jean's life force is what animated Maddie originally. I've used this analogy before. In X MEN TAS, Phoenix takes some life force from all the other X Men to restore Jean to life. Jean did not suddenly become Jean/Scott/Logan/Ororo/Rogue/Gambit. She is still Jean. That is how I view Maddie. It's not like she woke up with Jean's memories or acted just like Jean. Well, she was strong the way many Claremont woman were strong. Punching Scott in the mouth.

I'm not against the idea that Maddie be revealed as Jean way back when. Not by the time of Inferno, though. By that time I thought that ship had sailed. Why did they do what they did at the end of INFERNO? Beats me. To complicate Jean's life and the JOTT dynamic? But I certainly didn't interpret it as, Jean's now a full and complete person as opposed to the first 37 plus issues. And I don't think that was Simonson's intention.

Claremont, in THE END, is doing what Morrison did. Stop trying to retroactively deconstruct something that worked. It worked after she came back. We saw it on panel. For the 100th time, if you were bound and determined to do it, you do it moving forward. Scott came back different after Apocalypse. They don't work anymore because he's different. Certainly, I would still intensely dislike it, but I would objectively concede it as workable. Trying to tell me that Scott and Jean were just "going through the motions" post 1986, IMO, flies in the face of just WAY too much that we saw on panel.

Lastly, since this is a Cyclops thread. In the comics I read, I don't recall ever thinking that any of Claremont's anti Cyclops bias coming out. How much did he even write him? He was never his primary writer post 1986. I'll say this. He scripted X FACTOR 65-68. IMO, as well as Cyclops is handled that entire run.

Jean/Logan/Scott is a different matter. I do believe his bias showed there, but again he is not Jean or Scott's primary handler. And it's why this supposed triangle was so overrated. It's a game he's mostly playing by himself. I don't think Lobdell ever mentioned it. Simonson and Nicieza did, but very briefly.

I didn't read X MEN FOREVER or THE END, except for a couple pages online. The former I view as an alternate AU. It's Claremont's universe, let him do what he wants. I suppose THE END could be viewed as one possible future.

All I know is this guy wrote a bunch of my favorite Cyclops stories. I'm not telling you he'd be my number 1 choice at this point. However, Morrison or Claremont, who do I want? Claremont by a mile.

I'm not sure, I know you hate how Morrison managed Jean, Scott and Jott in New X-men, but keep in mind that if it had been CC instead of Morrison it would have been much worse. yesterday I read very superficially X-men Forever, the first thing we see is Jean thinking and loving madly Logan, there was no reason for this, out of the blue Jean loves Logan and no longer feels anything for Scott, we just came to see as it happened a while later with the annual. where apparently Jean begins to cheat Scott (as I said I really didn't read it, I saw some panels and read the comments, generally they were all bad) and I think the rest of the X-men agreed with this, Jean and Logan are happy, ¿who cares Scott, right?. personally I didn't like anything as CC wrote Jean not only to cheat Scott, what I most hated was that even though she was raising Nathan then she referred to him as Scott's son, for her he was nothing, then Jean of CC had no love for Scott just friendship everything she felt for him now had disappeared. as I understand CC wanted to do with the 616 something like X-men Forever (only without killing so many characters in between).

So Morrison sucks, but at least he made some sense with Apocalysis, I'm sure CC would have done something much worse, not only for Scott or Jott but also for Jean.

CC wrote great stories in the past but his anger against Scott has simply caused him to lose a lot, if CC can write X-men and especially Jean and Scott, it will possibly be the definitive ending of Jott, RightClops and many other things.

[JeisonWolf]

Why you gotta bring this one up? I was not prepared for that twist and even now, it still twists a knife in my heart. Ben was a good man

I'm sorry, I recently returned to see the series again ... and yes Ben was great, the first time I was really excited when seeing Brendan Fraser in what was my favorite series, unfortunately it did not last long ...

[lancer]

I'm not sure, I know you hate how Morrison managed Jean, Scott and Jott in New X-men, but keep in mind that if it had been CC instead of Morrison it would have been much worse. yesterday I read very superficially X-men Forever, the first thing we see is Jean thinking and loving madly Logan, there was no reason for this, out of the blue Jean loves Logan and no longer feels anything for Scott, we just came to see as it happened a while later with the annual. where apparently Jean begins to cheat Scott (as I said I really didn't read it, I saw some panels and read the comments, generally they were all bad) and I think the rest of the X-men agreed with this, Jean and Logan are happy, ¿who cares Scott, right?. personally I didn't like anything as CC wrote Jean not only to cheat Scott, what I most hated was that even though she was raising Nathan then she referred to him as Scott's son, for her he was nothing, then Jean of CC had no love for Scott just friendship everything she felt for him now had disappeared. as I understand CC wanted to do with the 616 something like X-men Forever (only without killing so many characters in between).

So Morrison sucks, but at least he made some sense with Apocalysis, I'm sure CC would have done something much worse, not only for Scott or Jott but also for Jean.

CC wrote great stories in the past but his anger against Scott has simply caused him to lose a lot, if CC can write X-men and especially Jean and Scott, it will possibly be the definitive ending of Jott, RightClops and many other things.

You can't judge what CC would have done in 2001 with XMF. That story is set 20 years ago when CC left the books. Frankly, even there he is playing fast and loose with the rules that were supposedly in play. Which were, everything happened the same up until UXM 279? Somewhere in that area.

If this is the case, no way Jean and Logan are having an affair. That does not respect X FACTOR. I had figured CC would do Jean/Logan, but I thought he'd work toward it. He went right to it in issue 1 and that just doesn't work if canon is the same right through Jean and Scott's time in X FACTOR.

Where is Morrison using Apocalypse as an excuse? I mean consistently? What does Apocalypse have to do with Scott saying he and Jean never worked after her return? Calling the marriage going through the motion? Basically calling him and Jean an overblown teenage crush? 'Everytime I look at Jean, I see that teenage girl I fell in love with. Only I'm not that teenage boy anymore." I'd say that line equates to basically saying.

Morrison talked about Scott a bunch in interviews. Said he was his favorite X Man. I defy anyone to produce one where he talks about Apocalypse and his effect on Scott. My view is he thinks that experience didn't so much change Scott as open his eyes.
And he thought Scott needed to grow. Problem is, Grant, he already had, a long time ago.

I'll give you that it's not always clear. NXM 117, the issue where Jean and Logan kiss unequivocally plays that he is different. That is the problem. Not that Jean loved or loves Scott any less, but that he is completely different. HOWEVER, that is one issue. That is not how any of the Scott/Emma conversations played.

Please, enlighten me, what was CC possibly going to do that would be worse than Scott committing adultery? Retroactively deconstructing the JOTT relationship? Hook Jean up with Logan? Pretty bad, no denying, but WORSE than Scott sucking face with his mistress where Jean is buried? I don't think so,.

That is without getting into the other stuff. Scott actively participated in a plane to blow up a space station filled with Weapon Plus scientists. Bad people, to be sure, but he killed them. Speaking for myself, not a big fan of Cyclops performing mercy killings either.

Hey, I said CC would no longer be my no 1 choice. We are talking him versus Morrison. He has a shitload of collateral built up from previous stories that Morrison never earned. Not in my view. To each his own. A whole lot of people seemed to have loved his Cyclops.

A lot of people didn't like Lobdell's Cyclops and there were sure times I wish he had done more with him. Still, in my mind, there is a Grand Canyon sized chasm between that and fundamentally not getting the character. Who he esstentially saw Cyclops as, who he was, his value system, that's how I saw Cyclops.

The guy in UXM 310, ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX, I respect that guy, I admire that guy. The same way I admired and respected the guy in the first Brood story, GOD LOVES MAN KILLS, ENDGAME in X FACTOR. THAT'S how I see Cyclops and would like to see him portrayed.

Boyscott all the way for me. For me, though, problem is getting there again. Too much has happened.

[JeisonWolf]

You can't judge what CC would have done in 2001 with XMF. That story is set 20 years ago when CC left the books. Frankly, even there he is playing fast and loose with the rules that were supposedly in play. Which were, everything happened the same up until UXM 279? Somewhere in that area.

If this is the case, no way Jean and Logan are having an affair. That does not respect X FACTOR. I had figured CC would do Jean/Logan, but I thought he'd work toward it. He went right to it in issue 1 and that just doesn't work if canon is the same right through Jean and Scott's time in X FACTOR.

Where is Morrison using Apocalypse as an excuse? I mean consistently? What does Apocalypse have to do with Scott saying he and Jean never worked after her return? Calling the marriage going through the motion? Basically calling him and Jean an overblown teenage crush? 'Everytime I look at Jean, I see that teenage girl I fell in love with. Only I'm not that teenage boy anymore." I'd say that line equates to basically saying.

Morrison talked about Scott a bunch in interviews. Said he was his favorite X Man. I defy anyone to produce one where he talks about Apocalypse and his effect on Scott. My view is he thinks that experience didn't so much change Scott as open his eyes.
And he thought Scott needed to grow. Problem is, Grant, he already had, a long time ago.

I'll give you that it's not always clear. NXM 117, the issue where Jean and Logan kiss unequivocally plays that he is different. That is the problem. Not that Jean loved or loves Scott any less, but that he is completely different. HOWEVER, that is one issue. That is not how any of the Scott/Emma conversations played.

Please, enlighten me, what was CC possibly going to do that would be worse than Scott committing adultery? Retroactively deconstructing the JOTT relationship? Hook Jean up with Logan? Pretty bad, no denying, but WORSE than Scott sucking face with his mistress where Jean is buried? I don't think so,.

That is without getting into the other stuff. Scott actively participated in a plane to blow up a space station filled with Weapon Plus scientists. Bad people, to be sure, but he killed them. Speaking for myself, not a big fan of Cyclops performing mercy killings either.

Hey, I said CC would no longer be my no 1 choice. We are talking him versus Morrison. He has a shitload of collateral built up from previous stories that Morrison never earned. Not in my view. To each his own. A whole lot of people seemed to have loved his Cyclops.

A lot of people didn't like Lobdell's Cyclops and there were sure times I wish he had done more with him. Still, in my mind, there is a Grand Canyon sized chasm between that and fundamentally not getting the character. Who he esstentially saw Cyclops as, who he was, his value system, that's how I saw Cyclops.

The guy in UXM 310, ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX, I respect that guy, I admire that guy. The same way I admired and respected the guy in the first Brood story, GOD LOVES MAN KILLS, ENDGAME in X FACTOR. THAT'S how I see Cyclops and would like to see him portrayed.

Boyscott all the way for me. For me, though, problem is getting there again. Too much has happened.

What Morrison did would not have worked out given how Jean and Scott's relationship was in "Search of Cyclops" earlier in the twelve arc they were talk abouth having children and then the possession of Apocalypse occurred, everyone would assume that things they would go back to how they were before, but it was not like that.

I know you hate Scott in some way, because you think he did the worst thing in committing adultery with Emma, ​​if we wanted to defend Scott we could say that although he did wrong, Emma "forced" him by using his mental tricks on him,he is already weak mentally after everything Apocalysis, also that Scott began to accept when Emma began to disguise himself as Jean ...

but now thinks is CC who writes the story, surely it would not be Scott who committed adultery, surely like in X-men Forever CC would make Jean who did it, that the rest of the X-men would be fine with that and that Scott was humiliated in some way, so that in the end he would end up saying that Maddy is the only woman that he truly love and who love him and that he was an idiot to leave her.
Possibly, Jean said horrible things about Scott, that she never love him, that he mean nothing to her and that Logan is the best, more or less the same thing that happened at the Scemma era but in this case it would be Jean whom you would hate.

X-men forever had 40 numbers in total, I think. If the objective of CC was to build a story Jogan would have done it, I think he had time for that, but what he did was to say that Logan was Jean's great love and kill Logan in the issue 2 or 3. his goal it is not to create a romantic story between Jean and Logan is simply to attack and harm Scott. Morrison used his feelings and reflexes in his characters, had just gone through a divorce and was living a bad time and Jott suffered the consequences of that. her case is very different, if Morrison had not been in a bad moment maybe the kiss of Jean and Logan had never happened, maybe the adventure with Emma either. On the other hand, if CC had been, the disaster would have been guaranteed regardless of whether a good or bad time was going on, that is why I say that CC would have been much worse.

As for the kiss in the grave, I know it's very grotesque but remember that it was Jean who pushed him to do it, she said: live Scott, live. Many young people believe that living is having a lot of sex, and possibly that's what the writer did, it take away all remorse, pain and grief from Scott for the death of his wife and gave him the freedom to do what he wants. if you doesn't remember that originally Scott rejected Emma and moved away from the X-men.

I would also like to recover BoyScott, even though RightClops has his good things, I like BoyScott more.

[xiyon]

What Morrison did would not have worked out given how Jean and Scott's relationship was in "Search of Cyclops" earlier in the twelve arc they were talk abouth having children and then the possession of Apocalypse occurred, everyone would assume that things they would go back to how they were before, but it was not like that.

I know you hate Scott in some way, because you think he did the worst thing in committing adultery with Emma, ​​if we wanted to defend Scott we could say that although he did wrong, Emma "forced" him by using his mental tricks on him,he is already weak mentally after everything Apocalysis, also that Scott began to accept when Emma began to disguise himself as Jean ...

but now thinks is CC who writes the story, surely it would not be Scott who committed adultery, surely like in X-men Forever CC would make Jean who did it, that the rest of the X-men would be fine with that and that Scott was humiliated in some way, so that in the end he would end up saying that Maddy is the only woman that he truly love and who love him and that he was an idiot to leave her.
Possibly, Jean said horrible things about Scott, that she never love him, that he mean nothing to her and that Logan is the best, more or less the same thing that happened at the Scemma era but in this case it would be Jean whom you would hate.

X-men forever had 40 numbers in total, I think. If the objective of CC was to build a story Jogan would have done it, I think he had time for that, but what he did was to say that Logan was Jean's great love and kill Logan in the issue 2 or 3. his goal it is not to create a romantic story between Jean and Logan is simply to attack and harm Scott. Morrison used his feelings and reflexes in his characters, had just gone through a divorce and was living a bad time and Jott suffered the consequences of that. her case is very different, if Morrison had not been in a bad moment maybe the kiss of Jean and Logan had never happened, maybe the adventure with Emma either. On the other hand, if CC had been, the disaster would have been guaranteed regardless of whether a good or bad time was going on, that is why I say that CC would have been much worse.

As for the kiss in the grave, I know it's very grotesque but remember that it was Jean who pushed him to do it, she said: live Scott, live. Many young people believe that living is having a lot of sex, and possibly that's what the writer did, it take away all remorse, pain and grief from Scott for the death of his wife and gave him the freedom to do what he wants. if you doesn't remember that originally Scott rejected Emma and moved away from the X-men.

I would also like to recover BoyScott, even though RightClops has his good things, I like BoyScott more.

I honestly don't understand why people ignore Jean's transtemporal psychic override forcing Cyke to choose Emma on her grave.

[PsychoEFrost]

I honestly don't understand why people ignore Jean's transtemporal psychic override forcing Cyke to choose Emma on her grave.

Because it's easier to say Emma's a homewrecking bitch and Scott is an unfaithful creep? Why let things like "the truth" get in the way?

[Havok83]

Because it's easier to say Emma's a homewrecking bitch and Scott is an unfaithful creep? Why let things like "the truth" get in the way?

Not really. Kissing at the grave didnt make Emma a homewrecker or Scott unfaithful bc Jean was dead by that point.

[PsychoEFrost]

Not really. Kissing at the grave didnt make Emma a homewrecker or Scott unfaithful bc Jean was dead by that point.

I guess the sarcasm didn't get through? People like to say those things even though they aren't true.

[Havok83]

I guess the sarcasm didn't get through? People like to say those things even though they aren't true.

I mean it was true (I wouldnt use the word creep though) but not because of that kiss

[CuteClops]

Exactly, Emma looked crazy and obssesed. This is why these events are better forgotten.

I repeat, Emma and Scott are neither Wanda nor Jean.
Their past doesn't have to be ignored, removed and erased.

[CuteClops]

bc she was crazy. It was clear in DoX/IvX that she had snapped. She was not in her right mind

It's simple, many people have post-trauma stress, Emma had just seen Scott die, she just didn't accept reality, she talked to him as if he were alive but in reality there was nobody. A great example of this is in the series "Scrubs" Dr. Cox lost his best friend Ben who had died suddenly, during the whole episode we see how Ben and Cox talk to each other while they spend time together, Dr Cox is convinced that they go to his son's birthday but it turns out that they are actually going to Ben's funeral and that's when he has to face reality and realizes that the Ben he's been talking to for the past few days was just a product of his imagination or his subconscious that refused to accept reality.

Well, I don't know about you guys, but when I'm reading comics, I try to look beyond the obvious.

At the end of the first issue I already suspected, and at the end of the second issue of DoX I was already absolutely certain that it was not Scott, but Emma. I just was not sure if Scott was dead or terribly sick.