Laura: X-23 Appreciation 2018

[Jumpyshark]

I'm well aware that in real life people can come out with no prior indication. But as I've been told when arguing on the point of Gabby, (IE Gabby being LGBT doesn't mean anything about Laura's orientation just because Gabby's her clone, because IRL orientation is much more complicated than genetics) real life =/= fiction. And fiction NEEDS that prior development.

And I'm saying this as a writer. If I were to spring any development on a character in one of my books that had no prior build-up or foreshadowing, at BEST I've lost the suspension of disbelief. At worst I'd lose the audience entirely. It's something in my own books I have to take VERY painstaking measures to lay groundwork for (IE in one I've got developments brewing that may not be important until the EPILOGUE of the third book, but I'm setting them up anyway because I NEED to so the audience doesn't think I'm just pulling something out of my ass).

So if IRL orientation doesn't have anything to do with Gabby vs. Laura's orientiation, then the fact people IRL can come out with no prior indication is just as irrelevant in fiction land, where character developments and plot points DO need foreshadowing.

Just for clarity, I meant that Laura might discuss sexuality with Gabby as a topic, which could provide something definitive for either/both of them. Or Laura comes out independently of Gabby, etc etc, rather than anything related to clones/genetics/sexuality. They are distinct characters of course.

I also fundamentally disagree that fiction needs prior development. The X-Men are a soap opera where ex-wives, clones and all sorts of plot/personal developments have appeared out of nowhere. I enjoy a good, built up to reveal, but a sudden twist can also be great, and a lazy retcon will likely be terrible. As ever, it's in the execution and both real life and fiction can be messy and sudden or meticulous and planned.

It's clear your preference is for Laura to be straight, and that's fine! Just please be careful that your fervour doesn't lead you into making arguments that negate other people relating to a character in their way, with their experiences and perspective.

[Ambaryerno]

I also fundamentally disagree that fiction needs prior development. The X-Men are a soap opera where ex-wives, clones and all sorts of plot/personal developments have appeared out of nowhere. I enjoy a good, built up to reveal, but a sudden twist can also be great, and a lazy retcon will likely be terrible. As ever, it's in the execution and both real life and fiction can be messy and sudden or meticulous and planned.

Unexpected developments can happen in fiction, yes, but there's a difference between a surprise development in the plot (a new character entering to shake things up, an event that no one was anticipating, etc.) and introducing sudden changes to characterization, history, or identity without laying the groundwork for it, first. That's precisely WHY Marvel is lousy with so many lazy or sloppy retcons. Just look at how messy Logan's backstory is. We even had an OML story arc that ended up having him living through the War of 1812, which would require him to have been born a century EARLIER than established canon. Or hell, just look at Wanda and Quicksilver's parentage.

[Beaubier]

My main issue with it is Kyle saying he “always” intended it when he spent 2 series building up Laura’s attraction to Hellion. So I don’t buy that it “always” the intention. If he retroactively came to that conclusion, that’s one thing, but I’m not going to give him accolades for claiming he always intended her to be a gay character when he didn’t put any work in at all to establish her as such or even hint at it. If there was any time to lay the groundwork for it, it would’ve been in NXM. It would’ve been much less controversial and divisive as she was pretty much a blank slate character in those days. But now all of the sudden he claims that was always the intent, though apparently it was never even discussed with people he worked closely with on the books either as it was a surprise to Choi and Yost never said anything about it (and in fact said he shipped Laura with Hellion, so..)

If another writer came along and wrote a compelling story of Laura coming out, then I could get behind it. But there’s no foundation for it from anything Kyle wrote.

[Ambaryerno]

Yost STILL isn't saying anything about it. I tried to get his thoughts on it on Twitter by he never responded.

[Beaubier]

Yost STILL isn't saying anything about it. I tried to get his thoughts on it on Twitter by he never responded.

I doubt he will, honestly. Kyle never responded to anyone’s questions about it on twitter either. we likely won’t hear any more thoughts on it until Kyle does whatever interview next month he was talking about.

[Ambaryerno]

I doubt he will, honestly. Kyle never responded to anyone’s questions about it on twitter either. we likely won’t hear any more thoughts on it until Kyle does whatever interview next month he was talking about.

IIRC that's Jay and Miles. I kind of hope they pin him down on why he never laid any apparent groundwork for it.

TBH, I still think it's Kyle trying to exert some sort of control or influence after the Adamantium Agenda retcon defied his prior comments about Laura's origins.

[TheCape]

IIRC that's Jay and Miles. I kind of hope they pin him down on why he never laid any apparent groundwork for it.

TBH, I still think it's Kyle trying to exert some sort of control or influence after the Adamantium Agenda retcon defied his prior comments about Laura's origins.

I feel inclined to agreed, althougth i don't have a horse in this race (Laura can be gay or bi or whatver part of LGTB spectre for all i care, i won't change anything for me) this sounds odd (i could be wrong thougth).

[Jumpyshark]

Yeah, at the end of the day it's an ambiguously worded tweet. It could apply solely to X-Men Evolution, it could mean if he started again now she'd be gay (or if he was writing her story for the first time in 2018?), which would presumably be both comics and other media?
Also, I use "gay" all the time because sometimes bisexual is too long, which adds more confusion.

It doesn't mean anything, but it's fun to speculate, especially for those of us who are hungry for more representation. Laura means a lot to many people after all, which is why she's found success as a character, so at the end of the day it's cool that people are invested in this tweet but it doesn't change anything until it's canon somewhere. I would definitely love to hear more from him about it though, so here's hoping we get that Jay & Miles interview.

Big bowl of speculation: I guess he *could* have building to a reveal that she's gay, maybe even with Hellion supporting her decision after some initial shock (who knows!), but the fact that Choi didn't know anything about is pretty strong evidence against that, plus the fact that I'd imagine Liu would have run with it (far beyond vampiric sapphic inference) if there'd been any passing of the torch between her and Kyle.
Maybe Editorial put the kibosh on it and he never said anything until now, never having reason to (c.f. Rowling and Dumbledore as mentioned above) and not wanting to rock the boat before he found success outside of Marvel comics?

[The Big G]

I think until its brought up again in an interview or news piece its time to move onto other things Laura related.

I'm curious to see what the next arc will be about.

[Ambaryerno]

One problem RE Marvel is the case of Byrne and Northstar. Marvel editorial put a stop to that as well, but it also didn't prevent him from sneaking it in and setting it up, anyway.

I think until its brought up again in an interview or news piece its time to move onto other things Laura related.

I'm curious to see what the next arc will be about.

Yeah, this seems to have largely died on Twitter. Certainly none of the industry news sites (CBR, comicbook.com, IGN, etc.) have picked it up, and it got pretty much buried by the Adamantium Agenda reveal.

Anyway, we should be getting November solicits this week, I believe, so at the very least we should have an idea what the finale of the first arc is going to be like. Incidentally, I also noticed that my subscription is for 13 issues, so I wonder if we're getting an annual.

I also found it curious that other than that Second Print cover, I haven't seen any other details about X-23 #2 getting a second printing.

[Beaubier]

Yeah, at the end of the day it's an ambiguously worded tweet. It could apply solely to X-Men Evolution, it could mean if he started again now she'd be gay (or if he was writing her story for the first time in 2018?), which would presumably be both comics and other media?
Also, I use "gay" all the time because sometimes bisexual is too long, which adds more confusion.

It doesn't mean anything, but it's fun to speculate, especially for those of us who are hungry for more representation. Laura means a lot to many people after all, which is why she's found success as a character, so at the end of the day it's cool that people are invested in this tweet but it doesn't change anything until it's canon somewhere. I would definitely love to hear more from him about it though, so here's hoping we get that Jay & Miles interview.

Big bowl of speculation: I guess he *could* have building to a reveal that she's gay, maybe even with Hellion supporting her decision after some initial shock (who knows!), but the fact that Choi didn't know anything about is pretty strong evidence against that, plus the fact that I'd imagine Liu would have run with it (far beyond vampiric sapphic inference) if there'd been any passing of the torch between her and Kyle.
Maybe Editorial put the kibosh on it and he never said anything until now, never having reason to (c.f. Rowling and Dumbledore as mentioned above) and not wanting to rock the boat before he found success outside of Marvel comics?

It didn’t apply only to Evolution. Kyle had specifically said in a follow up tweet that he’d love to tell this story in the comics. I don’t believe Marvel stopped him at the time he was writing her, I believe it never came up. The Marvel of the early 2000s was certainly not as progressive as could be, but it certainly wasn’t as oppressive as in the early Alpha Flight days either. If Kyle wanted X-23 to be gay or bi when she first intro’ed into the comics, who knows? Editorial may have very well said OK. It’s hard to say. They still are restrictive after all. In more recent years I believe, a writer wanted to put Gambit as bi and was told no, and then there’s the whole Hercules controversy where Alonso was determined to straightwash him. If I’m not mistaken.

But we’ll never know, because it never happened, and as far as we know it never will.

[Dthirds3]

Yeah, this seems to have largely died on Twitter. Certainly none of the industry news sites (CBR, comicbook.com, IGN, etc.) have picked it up, and it got pretty much buried by the Adamantium Agenda reveal.

Anyway, we should be getting November solicits this week, I believe, so at the very least we should have an idea what the finale of the first arc is going to be like. Incidentally, I also noticed that my subscription is for 13 issues, so I wonder if we're getting an annual.

I also found it curious that other than that Second Print cover, I haven't seen any other details about X-23 #2 getting a second printing.

It's good to know we get at least a year out of her series. As for the lack of news uncanny and Male Laura have dominated the x news.
The second arc should deal with Laura learning more about Sarah and the facility. The thing the bugged me about wepond + is it's so large there should have been more offshote project. I think it would be nice seeing her vs other interpations of wepond + projects. Also bring back Ultimaton he looked cool and revile what wepond 11 is. 12-15 were made to one group we still dont know wat 11 is other then its presumed to be a stronger version of wepond x program(remember weapons x was a team not just wolverine) my OCD need to know who or what is wepond 11

[Jumpyshark]

It didn’t apply only to Evolution. Kyle had specifically said in a follow up tweet that he’d love to tell this story in the comics. I don’t believe Marvel stopped him at the time he was writing her, I believe it never came up. The Marvel of the early 2000s was certainly not as progressive as could be, but it certainly wasn’t as oppressive as in the early Alpha Flight days either. If Kyle wanted X-23 to be gay or bi when she first intro’ed into the comics, who knows? Editorial may have very well said OK. It’s hard to say. They still are restrictive after all. In more recent years I believe, a writer wanted to put Gambit as bi and was told no, and then there’s the whole Hercules controversy where Alonso was determined to straightwash him. If I’m not mistaken.

But we’ll never know, because it never happened, and as far as we know it never will.

Oh! I'd never noticed that tweet (or I forgot all about it). Thanks for pointing that out. (https://twitter.com/MrCraigKyle/stat...29489674039296 If anyone else missed it.)

If it was part of her solo movie, it would be interesting to see if the comics followed suit, and the full quote making it "a natural part of her journey of self-discovery" is noteworthy for me, as I'm obviously of the opinion that Laura is definitely an ideal kind of character to figure her sexuality out. As you allude to though, editorial and higher-ups can be finicky about character sexuality.

Just to clarify, as far as we know, no Marvel people have commented publicly, apart from Choi expressing surprise, is that right? Not to keep dragging this up, just checking until anything new develops, if it does.

(Also, my understanding is that the Remy bisexuality story was shelved because the story was weaker than another proposal and then the series ended. It was Daniel Ketchum who was the edior on Gambit, and he is gay.)

[Ambaryerno]

Just to clarify, as far as we know, no Marvel people have commented publicly, apart from Choi expressing surprise, is that right? Not to keep dragging this up, just checking until anything new develops, if it does.

Correct. As of now, no one else at/connected to Marvel have said anything.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Oh! I'd never noticed that tweet (or I forgot all about it). Thanks for pointing that out. (https://twitter.com/MrCraigKyle/stat...29489674039296 If anyone else missed it.)

If it was part of her solo movie, it would be interesting to see if the comics followed suit, and the full quote making it "a natural part of her journey of self-discovery" is noteworthy for me, as I'm obviously of the opinion that Laura is definitely an ideal kind of character to figure her sexuality out. As you allude to though, editorial and higher-ups can be finicky about character sexuality.

Just to clarify, as far as we know, no Marvel people have commented publicly, apart from Choi expressing surprise, is that right? Not to keep dragging this up, just checking until anything new develops, if it does.

(Also, my understanding is that the Remy bisexuality story was shelved because the story was weaker than another proposal and then the series ended. It was Daniel Ketchum who was the edior on Gambit, and he is gay.)

Gambit is one of the few characters that I can totally see not being straight. He seems like the most sexually liberated Marvel character.