Laura: X-23 Appreciation 2018

[Nazrel]

And you're reaching to find any reason for it to NOT. You've been given plenty of plausible solutions for how this can work. You don't like it? Fine, that's up to you. But I'm not going to waste any more time debating it with you. It is what it is, and it's not even the biggest retcon she's ever been subjected to, but if you're going to pick nits over this one, you do that.

I'm reaching? Do you think I want to lose personal investment in something I've contributed a large amount of time and money too?
There have been no plausible explanations, just mental gymnastics at odds with stated objectives, character motivations, and explicitly stated facts; which are irrelevant anyway, because you're not writing the story, and it's not the readers job to make the authors plots work.
This does not work, it can not fit, and is not plausible.
This is not nitpicking, this acknowledging the large spanner thrown in the works, nitpicking is seeing green eyes and thinking this is some kind of plot hole that needs to be addressed (comic science).

If he didn't want to make it plausible for a future reveal, he either should of had them intend to make a female clone from the beginning or spend much more time showing exactly what Dr Kinnely did to create Laura.

What kind of moving goal post argument is that? How is explicitly stating what they were doing, and even giving the appropriate term for the end result not enough?

"Well if you didn't want me taking this, you shouldn't have just left it locked in a safe, and buried under 6 feet on concrete."

[Dthirds3]

Look who's right behind batman.

http://blog.comichron.com/2018/08/dc...ly-in.html?m=1

[Ambaryerno]

Look who's right behind batman.

http://blog.comichron.com/2018/08/dc...ly-in.html?m=1

Nice job, #4 out of all Marvel comics for the month. Now, it DID double-ship in July, so we'll need to see the full release before we get a sense over how much of a drop-off there was for #2.

[Arsenal]

I'm reaching? Do you think I want to lose personal investment in something I've contributed a large amount of time and money too?
There have been no plausible explanations, just mental gymnastics at odds with stated objectives, character motivations, and explicitly stated facts; which are irrelevant anyway, because you're not writing the story, and it's not the readers job to make the authors plots work.
This does not work, it can not fit, and is not plausible.
This is not nitpicking, this acknowledging the large spanner thrown in the works, nitpicking is seeing green eyes and thinking this is some kind of plot hole that needs to be addressed (comic science).



What kind of moving goal post argument is that? How is explicitly stating what they were doing, and even giving the appropriate term for the end result not enough?

"Well if you didn't want me taking this, you shouldn't have just left it locked in a safe, and buried under 6 feet on concrete."

Unless I'm forgetting something, all we were told about Laura's creation was the Y chromosome was damaged and Dr Kinnely believed the next best thing was to duplicate the intact X. Her request was denied so she decided to keep working in secret. Weeks pass, trials keep failing until one day it doesn't. That's it.

[Ambaryerno]

Unless I'm forgetting something, all we were told about Laura's creation was the Y chromosome was damaged and Dr Kinnely believed the next best thing was to duplicate the intact X. Her request was denied so she decided to keep working in secret. Weeks pass, trials keep failing until one day it doesn't. That's it.

Yeah, that's the other thing: There were TWENTY-TWO failed attempts at the female (and this is confirmed by Kyle; there were many MORE failed male clones before that) before the 23rd returned viable. So she did SOMETHING different in try 23 than she did in each of the previous 22.

All of Sarah's talk was when she was making the proposal to Sutter and Rice. How naive do you have to be to think she stuck to that script over TWENTY THREE attempts to create a viable fetus? Every trial she was going to do something different in an attempt to make it work, so all you have to do is say that subbing in her own intact DNA to stabilize the damaged sample was the "X Factor." Whether it was plugging in bits and pieces, or pairing one of Logan's repaired X chromosomes with one of her own.

[Dthirds3]

I think her origen is now
Damage Logan DNA from blood sample
Sarah begins expermation to create clone
X chromosome modification or replacement with one from hers
X23 sample created
Cloning used to generate embryo from sample
Rice force Sarah to carry Laura
Laura gains some trats from Sarah du to being carried and drugs to ensure developmental and mutation occurs(they did state she would get some trats crim Sarah du ro being carried)
Baby Laura is born being both Clone and having logan Sarah DNA present at any point from 98/2 to 50/50 ratio

[theoneandonly]

this makes her origin resemble more closely to superboy who was retconed to be a genuine clone comprising of both Superman and luthor DNA.

[RoamingGnome8]

this makes her origin resemble more closely to superboy who was retconed to be a genuine clone comprising of both Superman and luthor DNA.

That's also why I don't like this retcon; in my opinion Superboy went downhill the minute they added that retcon. I still like Conner, but he was a way more fun and interesting character when he had tactile telekinesis and was his own character.

I already haven't liked Laura being tied to Logan as much as she is, and this retcon makes me uneasy: she's already been diminished as a character by Bendis, this retcon just makes me worried that it's only going to get worse...

[Kurolegacy]

That's also why I don't like this retcon; in my opinion Superboy went downhill the minute they added that retcon. I still like Conner, but he was a way more fun and interesting character when he had tactile telekinesis and was his own character.

I already haven't liked Laura being tied to Logan as much as she is, and this retcon makes me uneasy: she's already been diminished as a character by Bendis, this retcon just makes me worried that it's only going to get worse...

Wait how is her being tied to Logan an issue? The fact that she had his DNA to begin with irrevocably tied her to him. That much didn’t change from this.

[Ambaryerno]

Wait how is her being tied to Logan an issue? The fact that she had his DNA to begin with irrevocably tied her to him. That much didn’t change from this.

It honestly feels like people are going out of their way to find something to complain about.

[WeirdSpider]

X-23 being a clone never made sense to me. Her backstory always sounded more like artificial insemination than cloning to me.

[RoamingGnome8]

Wait how is her being tied to Logan an issue? The fact that she had his DNA to begin with irrevocably tied her to him. That much didn’t change from this.

I was talking mainly about Marvel having her be Wolverine recently; I personally felt like it lead to eradicating Laura as her own person because more and more writers wrote her personality to fit Logan's personality more.

Laura used to have her own relationships (Julian, Kiden, Cessily, Sooraya, etc...), her own villains (Kimura) and was pretty separate from Logan. Even in X-Force; Logan wasn't as close to her as he was Rahne or the other girls he's mentored. Over time, I feel like more and more Marvel has been forcing her to 'be more like Logan'; by eliminating her friendships and tying her more to Logan's (Carol Danvers, Gambit, Jubilee), changing her personality and voice, completely sugar coating her relationship with Logan and eliminating any strain they used to have, and making her Wolverine. Now they're eliminating her origin; so instead of her being a clone, she's more closer to Logan's child. Laura HAD a unique internal struggle, that was somewhat different from Logan. Instead of fighting her 'animalistic side', Laura's struggle was 'am I even a person in the first place'.

Her being Wolverine and now this retcon; makes me feel like more and more that the old Kyle and Yost Laura is being erased.

[RoamingGnome8]

It honestly feels like people are going out of their way to find something to complain about.

Is it simply 'finding something to complain about', though?

When you have her original creator unhappy about this retcon and commentating on Twitter about it, I think some criticism towards it is bound to come up.
To know something was not the creators original intention (Kyle has said multiple times Sarah is not related to Laura biologically) and choose to do it anyway because you think you know better as a writer... that's in my opinion being disrespectful to the source material and previous writers.

[Kurolegacy]

I was talking mainly about Marvel having her be Wolverine recently; I personally felt like it lead to eradicating Laura as her own person because more and more writers wrote her personality to fit Logan's personality more.

Laura used to have her own relationships (Julian, Kiden, Cessily, Sooraya, etc...), her own villains (Kimura) and was pretty separate from Logan. Even in X-Force; Logan wasn't as close to her as he was Rahne or the other girls he's mentored. Over time, I feel like more and more Marvel has been forcing her to 'be more like Logan'; by eliminating her friendships and tying her more to Logan's (Carol Danvers, Gambit, Jubilee), changing her personality and voice, completely sugar coating her relationship with Logan and eliminating any strain they used to have, and making her Wolverine. Now they're eliminating her origin; so instead of her being a clone, she's more closer to Logan's child. Laura HAD a unique internal struggle, that was somewhat different from Logan. Instead of fighting her 'animalistic side', Laura's struggle was 'am I even a person in the first place'.

Her being Wolverine and now this retcon; makes me feel like more and more that the old Kyle and Yost Laura is being erased.

Laura’s voice isn’t something I have the expertise to discuss but when it comes to her relations, a lot of them became strained after everyone found out about her involvement in X-Force essentially putting her on her own. Gambit served as a father figure to her and the connect that they had felt natural, not like something forced. Her relationship with Jubilee was also something that had started before her solo and started out complicated in which she was noticeably upset by the fact that Logan held a better relationship with Jubilee, treating her much closer than herself but over time they came to become good friends and bonded especially in Paris. As for Carol, she really never interacted significantly with Laura even in the Wolverine solo.

When it came to becoming Wolverine, yea it felt a bit like she fell into his shoes but honestly, she was the best choice with carrying on his name considering the short list of candidates (we did get a bit of a Wolverine Reign between Laura, Creed, Jimmy and OML taking up Logan’s mantle in different parts of the MU). Plus while she took up the mantle, she did it on her terms and even faced ghosts of her past including Kimera and the Orphans of X. She has a lot of ties to Logan but she remains her own person.

[RoamingGnome8]

Laura’s voice isn’t something I have the expertise to discuss but when it comes to her relations, a lot of them became strained after everyone found out about her involvement in X-Force essentially putting her on her own. Gambit served as a father figure to her and the connect that they had felt natural, not like something forced. Her relationship with Jubilee was also something that had started before her solo and started out complicated in which she was noticeably upset by the fact that Logan held a better relationship with Jubilee, treating her much closer than herself but over time they came to become good friends and bonded especially in Paris. As for Carol, she really never interacted significantly with Laura even in the Wolverine solo.

When it came to becoming Wolverine, yea it felt a bit like she fell into his shoes but honestly, she was the best choice with carrying on his name considering the short list of candidates (we did get a bit of a Wolverine Reign between Laura, Creed, Jimmy and OML taking up Logan’s mantle in different parts of the MU). Plus while she took up the mantle, she did it on her terms and even faced ghosts of her past including Kimera and the Orphans of X. She has a lot of ties to Logan but she remains her own person.

Liu forced that to happen though, by HAVING her have the follow out with the New X-Men over X-Force. Her follow out with Julian was ESPECIALLY forced in the Babysitter's arc- because Liu wanted her to be more connected to characters with more connection with Logan and remove the friendships Laura developed on her own.

There was absolutely no reason to have Carol pop up in ANW- yet she showed up in the Fing Fang Foom story arc, at Sarah Kinney's funeral, and in the OWL storyline. She has ZERO connection with Laura- Tom Taylor would have been better off including Black Widow. Yet she's constantly used, and what's her only real connection to Laura- being friends with Logan.

How many storylines were semi based off of Logan though? You had the Brood Saga (a storyline where Logan was the focus because of his healing factor) Enemy of the State, and a play off of Old Man Logan. The only story that was really Laura's was the Four Sisters. Even 'Orphans of X' was based off the 'Red Right Hand'.