Rachel Grey/Summers Appreciation 2018

[Havok83]

X-men extermination comes out this week?

It's so strange to read Uncanny while we do not even know what the outcome of Extermination will be.


Not that I care about the O5 or this story but I wonder what happened to Rachel and how about the young Cable in this mess?

It comes out next week

Is it really that strange? We've always known how it ends in that the O5 go back to the past. If that doesnt happen and there is some twist, I'll be shocked. Anything else is likely insignificant and not necessary to follow Uncanny which 4 issues in, seems to be the case

[Knives]

It comes out next week

Is it really that strange? We've always known how it ends in that the O5 go back to the past. If that doesnt happen and there is some twist, I'll be shocked. Anything else is likely insignificant and not necessary to follow Uncanny which 4 issues in, seems to be the case

The O5 has always been destined to return in fact this can not be avoided but it is strange to see previews about certain characters and villains or the lack of them (like Rachel) and no explanation.

It's like reading schism and jumping AvX going straight to Uncanny Bendis something does not seem right .

Anyway thank you but still hate these delays.

[Askani's Flame]

My feelings on the perfect deployment of Rachel's character conception is reliant on Jean's tragic death and Scott being the only Summers in Marvel (sorry Havok, Corsair, Vulcan, Cable and Hope fans). Scott's barely holding it together in the wake of Jean's shadow but then a woman from the future shows up, looking exactly like his lost love, acting exactly like his rival, and claiming to be his daughter. Rachel is both the worst and best thing to ever happen to him, and of course he screws it up and she takes it personally. Simultaneous heartache and fistpumps pushed all the way to eleven, and you don't even need a cosmic bird god to catch the blame.

I don't think there is a perfect deployment of Rachel's character in a world with Jean Grey alive, powerful and confident. Had Jean been lobotomized in DPS, a psychic Rachel with the same flaws might've been a good foil for a human Jean, and may have even resulted in a world where a confident and powerful Rachel would've led an X-Men Red squad.

As it is, Rachel is left without dramatic juxtapositions with the characters people desperately want her to interact with, as she'll always seem like Donna Troy to Jean Grey's Wonder Woman. "Phoenix Lite", with the time-displacement and trauma backstory as her only distinguishing features when set against her more powerful and more confident mentor. It's a terrible story to tell, and not something one can find inspiring.

Everyone is allowed to feel differently, obviously. But looking at the current status quo, I wouldn't know how to tell a compelling Rachel and Jean story without one or both being written as somewhat selfish.

I think those are far and reasonable assessments and wishes for her character. In terms of Jean and Rachel, I feel like one stand alone issue, like we used to have back in the day, where they are together and thrust into a combat situation where they are complimenting each other and power and finesse and working things out. In my mind the conversation inevitably goes to Rachel explaining how not having a mother growing up (as 811 Jean was killed in the museum blast when she was an infant) and meeting her alive here stirred feelings of a connection of a mother she never had. And she mistakenly put a lot of focus and baggage on that when she shouldn't. And Jean going through some of her feelings as well, and bringing up "End of Greys" and thanking Rachel for being there for their family. In the end we see them treating each other like family and being friends and building trust. Having that kind of allows Rachel to move out of this temper tantrum adult who "wants her mommie" and grow past this, and doesn't saddle Jean's character with a daughter who needs her to fix everything for her. Therefore it's not a required thing to direction the narrative when they are on panel. As nice as the nod and panels were in Red, we got robbed by having them have a TP download instead of actually conversing. It also doesn't help when writers don't use the character in the same fashion (Rachel seems like more of an adult in Red, but written terribly in Gold and only slightly better in Extermination).


Oh I think you and I both don't want her in Excalibur. I was just playing along and creatively thinking how best to get her into the different context of Britain. Of course it wouldn't have the same feel... and I wasn't bringing up Hope or Quentin because they don't have association with Excalibur? But unlike Hope or Quentin, Feron doesn't have a psychic discipline to fall back on to cope with a Phoenix event. And, I kind of like Feron? I like Kylun, Cerise, Meggan, the Destines and all those Alan Davis characters that don't seem to work well in standard X-Books.[/QUOTE]

I only brought up Hope and QQ as from a historic context, since Rachel wasn't good enough to help them (or Jeen) I don't see it making sense to from a story perspective to help Feron. Feron was the only Davis character from that series that didn't stick with my like Meggan, Kylun, Cerise, or even Micromax. I wanted more from him, but once the 50th issue happened and then Rachel returned with the Force under her control, his story under a different writer fell apart. but yeah, overall I don't see her existing in that book well now. Either in the X-Men, or some type of X-Force/outlying X_men series dealing with threats would be beneficial.

But I'm talking like she's going to walk away from Extermination....

And on that note, I think it's just really weird that no one has mentioned once the O5 having left in some fashion, and that Rachel has not been mentioned or shown once in anything. Kitty mentioning Cable dying in Astonishing, but not mentioning the O5 or Rachel seemed off. And not mentioning her in exterminated was also off. I hate that this story has been dragged out because while we know the assumed ending to the O5 story, we have no clue about Rachel or why none of her friends care she's gone in the current series.

[Snoop Dogg]

If there is no O5 swerve, I will laugh and cry at THE NEXT BIG X-MEN EPIC not really being much of a story and more of a soft X-Force relaunch and the most misguided table setter since, shucks, I dunno, Flashpoint.

[Havok83]

The O5 has always been destined to return in fact this can not be avoided but it is strange to see previews about certain characters and villains or the lack of them (like Rachel) and no explanation.

It's like reading schism and jumping AvX going straight to Uncanny Bendis something does not seem right .

Anyway thank you but still hate these delays.

I don disagree. I found it off putting Marvel promoting AoX which is two events away with Extermination not even done. I think Extermination lost its steam and wish they could have stuck to a biweekly schedule

[CRaymond]

In terms of Jean and Rachel, I feel like one stand alone issue, like we used to have back in the day, where they are together and thrust into a combat situation where they are complimenting each other and power and finesse and working things out. In my mind the conversation inevitably goes to Rachel explaining how not having a mother growing up (as 811 Jean was killed in the museum blast when she was an infant) and meeting her alive here stirred feelings of a connection of a mother she never had. And she mistakenly put a lot of focus and baggage on that when she shouldn't. And Jean going through some of her feelings as well, and bringing up "End of Greys" and thanking Rachel for being there for their family. In the end we see them treating each other like family and being friends and building trust. Having that kind of allows Rachel to move out of this temper tantrum adult who "wants her mommie" and grow past this, and doesn't saddle Jean's character with a daughter who needs her to fix everything for her. Therefore it's not a required thing to direction the narrative when they are on panel. As nice as the nod and panels were in Red, we got robbed by having them have a TP download instead of actually conversing. It also doesn't help when writers don't use the character in the same fashion (Rachel seems like more of an adult in Red, but written terribly in Gold and only slightly better in Extermination).

Yeah, I guess, but I have to go back to what I said earlier: "*I* see no storytelling value whatsoever in mother-daughter moments."

You clearly have an idea how such an interaction would reference past events and provide a sentimental touchstone, but *for me* it'd be a waste of a few dollars. I can assume Jean's behavior toward Rachel and I can imagine Rachel's grown as a person... I don't need color on paper to affirm it. If the new status quo is Jean's Justice League of mutants, I'd rather they work together as professionals, forgo the soap, and work on the business of telling great stories with essential X-Men themes.

Rachel needs new thematic foils. "Conservative" Kitty isn't a valid option any longer, and the relationship with Nightcrawler feels hollow and awkward, like two hometown kids who made a pact to marry if they were both single at age 30. What is unique about the Rachel Summers character that would reveal itself when paired with another significant mutant? Off the top of my head: Deadpool's jovial insanity would give us Rachel's limits, Gambit's self-interested cad who showcase her moral fortitude, Colossus' creative sensitivity would reveal her empty spaces, Magik's cold certitude would reveal Rachel's warmth and wild fury. These are Rachel Summers stories I'd rather read.

[Sardorim]

Keep Deadpool and Colossus away from Rachel, romantically.

[CRaymond]

Keep Deadpool and Colossus away from Rachel, romantically.

I'll join you on the former, but why the latter?

[Askani's Flame]

Yeah, I guess, but I have to go back to what I said earlier: "*I* see no storytelling value whatsoever in mother-daughter moments."

You clearly have an idea how such an interaction would reference past events and provide a sentimental touchstone, but *for me* it'd be a waste of a few dollars. I can assume Jean's behavior toward Rachel and I can imagine Rachel's grown as a person... I don't need color on paper to affirm it. If the new status quo is Jean's Justice League of mutants, I'd rather they work together as professionals, forgo the soap, and work on the business of telling great stories with essential X-Men themes.

Rachel needs new thematic foils. "Conservative" Kitty isn't a valid option any longer, and the relationship with Nightcrawler feels hollow and awkward, like two hometown kids who made a pact to marry if they were both single at age 30. What is unique about the Rachel Summers character that would reveal itself when paired with another significant mutant? Off the top of my head: Deadpool's jovial insanity would give us Rachel's limits, Gambit's self-interested cad who showcase her moral fortitude, Colossus' creative sensitivity would reveal her empty spaces, Magik's cold certitude would reveal Rachel's warmth and wild fury. These are Rachel Summers stories I'd rather read.

Abso, it's totally not your cup of tea and that's cool. I think for me, that scene would resolve most things I've had issues with since they first interacted in the late 80's. But not everyone wants or needs that. The problem for Rachel, it seems, is that every writer other than Bunn, Carey, and Aaron (maybe Taylor) has written Rachel as this perpetual "woes me" about Jean and always has her sounding like a petulant child. Kinda like how each writer who gets a chance wants their own "Dark Phoenix Saga" when they write a Phoenix story. Rachel always goes back to this teenage mindset of acting and behaving. It's boring and brings nothing to the table for me. Anywho, my 2 pennies on that bit.

As for your list, Colossus and Gambit are a no for me automatically as one is married to Rachel's friend and one nearly married Rachel's best friend after being on and off again in love with each other. That's just messy and I don't see value to her being involved with them. I personally dislike Deadpool a lot so no. Magik I'd be cool with. One I thought might work and could be interesting would be Bishop (both come from tortuous futures, can draw on each others past to help fix the future).

[CRaymond]

Why's everyone assuming these matchups are romantic? I figured Rachel would be a great team-up with other B-List X-Men as she's the most likely to follow Xavier's Dream with no personal deviations. Deadpool and Gambit are both grand-standers who need an audience. Rachel's unlikely to give it. Colossus and Magik take the opposite approach and require a more active personality to draw theirs out.

And *I* don't think romantic entanglements with other characters mean anything. Hell, half the reason I like to pair her with the Rasputins is BECAUSE Kitty's such a bulldozing heartbreaker. How do they interact with her absent?

And as for Bishop... I've got even more controversial opinions about his role and character conception that DO overlap with Rachel's DOFP/811, but at significant cost to the rest of the X-Books world. Again, not romantic, but resulting in a far more lean menu of alternate timelines.

[U.N. Owen]

The problem for Rachel, it seems, is that every writer other than Bunn, Carey, and Aaron (maybe Taylor) has written Rachel as this perpetual "woes me" about Jean and always has her sounding like a petulant child. Kinda like how each writer who gets a chance wants their own "Dark Phoenix Saga" when they write a Phoenix story. Rachel always goes back to this teenage mindset of acting and behaving. It's boring and brings nothing to the table for me.

Well, they killed Cable and replaced him with a teen version of him. Let's do the same for everyone. You get a teenage edgelord! You get a teenage edgelord! Everyone gets a teenage edgelord!

In all seriousness, for all this talk about Rachel developing a different identity from her mother and isolating herself from her hellhole past, the writers sure want to emphasize her past and her connection to Jean.

I want to isolate myself from my mother and the Phoenix. I took a different codename and look. Therefore, I do nothing else like differentiate my fighting style or invest in psionic shielding. I give the bare minimum.
I want to isolate myself from my bad future past. Too bad, I get possessed just like I did as a Hound, change my costume into edgy Hound spikes, get my Hound markings back, and Ahab is here.

Seriously, X-Office, this is textbook irony right here.

[greyspawn]

Well, they killed Cable and replaced him with a teen version of him. Let's do the same for everyone. You get a teenage edgelord! You get a teenage edgelord! Everyone gets a teenage edgelord!

In all seriousness, for all this talk about Rachel developing a different identity from her mother and isolating herself from her hellhole past, the writers sure want to emphasize her past and her connection to Jean.

I want to isolate myself from my mother and the Phoenix. I took a different codename and look. Therefore, I do nothing else like differentiate my fighting style or invest in psionic shielding. I give the bare minimum.
I want to isolate myself from my bad future past. Too bad, I get possessed just like I did as a Hound, change my costume into edgy Hound spikes, get my Hound markings back, and Ahab is here.

Seriously, X-Office, this is textbook irony right here.

The teen cable was introduce so they can explain a smaller body moving forward when they age him within the year. They need the body to match the Deadpool movie version. Everything that is done is for the movies now.

[CRaymond]

The teen cable was introduce so they can explain a smaller body moving forward when they age him within the year. They need the body to match the Deadpool movie version. Everything that is done is for the movies now.

Ha. Unlikely. There's really not much to Cable. Badass from the future with a gun, a teleport device, and a history that's so convoluted it parodies itself. He's a joke. Which is why he works so well with Deadpool.

Teen Cable is just another joke in a long line of silly time traveling teenager stories in recent years. Cable can stay dead.

[Havok83]

The teen cable was introduce so they can explain a smaller body moving forward when they age him within the year. They need the body to match the Deadpool movie version. Everything that is done is for the movies now.

Cable's status in the books has nothing to do with the films

[Maestroneto]

I've been told through the grapevines that Rachel will not die in Extermination #5 but that she will be made unavailable in some way.