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  1. #8356
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    There's never a shortage of generic White Male leads so corporate executives who lack imagination always default to what they think works, despite evidence indicating otherwise

    After the debacle with the Justice League, it's unfortunate Cyborg is caught in limbo. Idk what WB will do with him. Maybe John Stewart can at least get a movie

  2. #8357
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    While at the top of entertainment companies there are mostly fat, old white men waggling their jowls at the thought of casting a POC in a lead role it's not entirely/mostly for racist reasons. At least, not their own personal racism. They assume (in many cases, rightfully) that a large enough portion of their audience is racist that it makes economic sense to avoid alienating that base. And they also assume non-white audiences are so used to the default casting of white leads that they'll grumble but buy tickets anyway (again, they're probably right). Add to that the grab for the Chinese/Asian market and they're going to be conservative (as in, defaulting to white leads).
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  3. #8358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    The real star was the concept itself.

    Nobody cares about the humans in a Kaiju flick. But somebody had to give them money to film it and if Del Toro had said that the lead was to be the female character they wouldn't have gotten a dime. If he'd said Elba they'd of given him an argument, but mention Hunnan and they don't question jack.

    Now Charles Hunam, the dude they got to play John Carter AND the dude who they got to play the Lone Ranger that last time are all mediocre repeat failed action stars, but Hollywood will sign off on each of them, time and again.

    I imagine Del Toro would have been fine with whatever gets him to be able to make his own personal Gundam movie.
    The deaf girl from Godzilla vs Kong seems quite popular.

  4. #8359
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    While at the top of entertainment companies there are mostly fat, old white men waggling their jowls at the thought of casting a POC in a lead role it's not entirely/mostly for racist reasons. At least, not their own personal racism. They assume (in many cases, rightfully) that a large enough portion of their audience is racist that it makes economic sense to avoid alienating that base. And they also assume non-white audiences are so used to the default casting of white leads that they'll grumble but buy tickets anyway (again, they're probably right). Add to that the grab for the Chinese/Asian market and they're going to be conservative (as in, defaulting to white leads).
    Yeah, some of these executives will cast PoC and women in leading rolea if they think it'll make a lit of money. Although, why would Chinese audiences want White leads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The deaf girl from Godzilla vs Kong seems quite popular.
    She was the most entertaining one in GvK. Tbf, some daikaiju movies have good human characters, but a lot don't

  5. #8360
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    Anyone read the new Static title? It was pretty good, I was impressed.

    I'm curious if there will be a new Blood Syndicate book. The original was a novel concept because they weren't just young people that got powers, they were actual gang members that got superpowers and a lot of the characters in the title simply weren't heroic.

    The original book was unbelievably ahead of its time. It had gender fluid characters, closeted gay characters, drug addicted heroes and a young white man that didn't disclose his identity and tried to fit into the "culture". I can't imagine that sort of book not being extremely controversial in today's climate.
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  6. #8361
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    While at the top of entertainment companies there are mostly fat, old white men waggling their jowls at the thought of casting a POC in a lead role it's not entirely/mostly for racist reasons. At least, not their own personal racism. They assume (in many cases, rightfully) that a large enough portion of their audience is racist that it makes economic sense to avoid alienating that base. And they also assume non-white audiences are so used to the default casting of white leads that they'll grumble but buy tickets anyway (again, they're probably right). Add to that the grab for the Chinese/Asian market and they're going to be conservative (as in, defaulting to white leads).
    That’s the usual thought process, but it’s been disproven enough times to be arguably either a negligible phenomenon, or a negative self-perpetuating one leaving money on the table.

    Black Panther definitely had Ike Perlmutter nervous enough to keep on cancelling it until Feige got out from under him, and even when the film was being released, someone panicked enough to switch the Chinese posters from showing Boseman’s face to instead show a masked BP… and it still made insane cash in America and worldwide, *including China,* in spite of the doomsayers at the time. On a lesser note, Star Wars: The Force Awakens made no bones about the fact it’s stars were a woman and a black man, and that film set the record for domestic box office, and what failures it did have abroad were placed pretty squarely on its reliance on nostalgia for the OT.

    Adding to the argument, if, as some like myself think, The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker were overreacting to fears of racist audiences after the fact, they proved that tp be an ineffective and harmful tactic that only gained them bad publicity as time went on, drove minorities and women away from the film, and failed to slow the loss of even white fans.
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  7. #8362
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    That's just it, it's oversimplifying to suggest that "racist" can only be applied for the executives and investors if we mean that they are personally like consumed with some blind irrational hatred of anyone not white, that overrides their ability to think or act with anything but clearly racist action in society. I mean, that's not what the kind of racism that has the most influence on people's daily lives, anymore.

    If you have producers or whoever, who have real power to influence what movies get made, who is cast, or how those movies are scripted or marketed, and those people -- you know, who could have all kinds of friends or even family members (by marriage or adoption) who are PoC -- they might not be personally consumed by hatred for minorities, but their deciding that a big budget film can't include minority leads, because they are sure that racism is widespread enough in the world to hurt profits -- as much as they might not really grasp it, those people are being racist. They are projecting and perpetuating racist stereotypes.

    I mean, not that I would expect marketing types or big movie studio people to do anything but try to predict the crowd, rather than just legitimately aim to make something artistically good, and trust the market to respond. Just saying that too often, trying to predict the crowd in a world where racism has been the norm will too often mean that you confirm racist trends, rather than ignoring them. Just because you're not the only racist won't make you any less so.
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  8. #8363
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    The real star was the concept itself.

    Nobody cares about the humans in a Kaiju flick. But somebody had to give them money to film it and if Del Toro had said that the lead was to be the female character they wouldn't have gotten a dime. If he'd said Elba they'd of given him an argument, but mention Hunnan and they don't question jack.

    Now Charles Hunam, the dude they got to play John Carter AND the dude who they got to play the Lone Ranger that last time are all mediocre repeat failed action stars, but Hollywood will sign off on each of them, time and again.

    I imagine Del Toro would have been fine with whatever gets him to be able to make his own personal Gundam movie.
    Don't forget when they kept tryig to make Jai Courtney happen. Over and over.
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  9. #8364
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Yeah, some of these executives will cast PoC and women in leading rolea if they think it'll make a lit of money. Although, why would Chinese audiences want White leads?



    She was the most entertaining one in GvK. Tbf, some daikaiju movies have good human characters, but a lot don't
    I think it's more they're not interested in black/POC leads and are used to American movies having white leads by default so don't think so much about Thor or Captain America or Generic Action Movie #47 having a white lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    That’s the usual thought process, but it’s been disproven enough times to be arguably either a negligible phenomenon, or a negative self-perpetuating one leaving money on the table.

    Black Panther definitely had Ike Perlmutter nervous enough to keep on cancelling it until Feige got out from under him, and even when the film was being released, someone panicked enough to switch the Chinese posters from showing Boseman’s face to instead show a masked BP… and it still made insane cash in America and worldwide, *including China,* in spite of the doomsayers at the time. On a lesser note, Star Wars: The Force Awakens made no bones about the fact it’s stars were a woman and a black man, and that film set the record for domestic box office, and what failures it did have abroad were placed pretty squarely on its reliance on nostalgia for the OT.

    Adding to the argument, if, as some like myself think, The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker were overreacting to fears of racist audiences after the fact, they proved that tp be an ineffective and harmful tactic that only gained them bad publicity as time went on, drove minorities and women away from the film, and failed to slow the loss of even white fans.
    Agree totally, but the problem with ignorance/prejudice is you're hamstrung from the get-go. Luckily money talks, so when people are allowed to succeed and earn money then Executive Producer Jowls up there will hop on board. Money trumps prejudice/conservatism.
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  10. #8365
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Don't forget when they kept tryig to make Jai Courtney happen. Over and over.
    You mean Sam Worthington 2.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    I think it's more they're not interested in black/POC leads and are used to American movies having white leads by default so don't think so much about Thor or Captain America or Generic Action Movie #47 having a white lead.
    Wouldn't they be ok with leads of Asian descent?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    Agree totally, but the problem with ignorance/prejudice is you're hamstrung from the get-go. Luckily money talks, so when people are allowed to succeed and earn money then Executive Producer Jowls up there will hop on board. Money trumps prejudice/conservatism.

  11. #8366
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    You mean Sam Worthington 2.0?



    Wouldn't they be ok with leads of Asian descent?
    Judging by their reaction to the Shang actor....

    Only if it fits what they expect lol.
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  12. #8367
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post



    Money trumps prejudice/conservatism.


    Tuh, anybody reading the above, please know that it is unequivocally incorrect, baseless in American society and also the feeling this is true is another symptom of the fucking disease.

    You're a fan of the NFL, the Patriots, even though you're sounding a lot like Drew Brees with this. It's not been brought up in that thread but the widely used practice of Race Norming is supposedly 'soon' to halted as a hurdle that only Black players, you know, the players that have made that league what it is, were and are subjected to in regards to compensation. 32 owners and as many commissioners going back to when the issue presented, their lawyers, the accountants and league representatives are fully aware of this because it effects the returns on the investment on the statements. Now that you mention it, I do wonder what Hoddie thinks of this issue btw.


    The practice had made it harder for Black players to show a deficit and qualify for an award. The standards were designed in medicine in the 1990s in hopes of offering more appropriate treatment to dementia patients, but critics faulted the way they were used to assess legal damages in the NFL case.
    Bigotry is rewarded and funded in American society and this has always been the reality. The culture of law enforcement is another structure in place to provide living wages to largely unskilled labor in overseeing the 1/5 of the largely Black population. Same with the prison complex. Same with the NCAA, the black sports fund the white sports. I actually have no idea what this country would look like without the procurement of bodies that came from Africa and their descendants.

    So no, you're kind of, sort of, way fucking way off in believing, that one thing, is worth more than money in American.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  13. #8368
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    You mean Sam Worthington 2.0?



    Wouldn't they be ok with leads of Asian descent?
    They would be, the domestic audience probably not so much as a standard rule. We'll see how Shang Chi does (though I do wish they'd gone with an East Asian hero who wasn't yet another martial artist). I'm hoping it's good, and if not good at least successful (but with the Disney logo it's probably a lock for several hundred million).

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Tuh, anybody reading the above, please know that it is unequivocally incorrect, baseless in American society and also the feeling this is true is another symptom of the fucking disease.

    You're a fan of the NFL, the Patriots, even though you're sounding a lot like Drew Brees with this. It's not been brought up in that thread but the widely used practice of Race Norming is supposedly 'soon' to halted as a hurdle that only Black players, you know, the players that have made that league what it is, were and are subjected to in regards to compensation. 32 owners and as many commissioners going back to when the issue presented, their lawyers, the accountants and league representatives are fully aware of this because it effects the returns on the investment on the statements. Now that you mention it, I do wonder what Hoddie thinks of this issue btw.



    Bigotry is rewarded and funded in American society and this has always been the reality. The culture of law enforcement is another structure in place to provide living wages to largely unskilled labor in overseeing the 1/5 of the largely Black population. Same with the prison complex. Same with the NCAA, the black sports fund the white sports. I actually have no idea what this country would look like without the procurement of bodies that came from Africa and their descendants.

    So no, you're kind of, sort of, way fucking way off in believing, that one thing, is worth more than money in American.
    While I'd agree what you're talking about is messed up, it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. That point, again, was that racist people in power who traditionally wouldn't allow black/POC actors to star/lead a movie or TV show for fear a large enough portion of their population would stay away or not be interested will change their minds when it's shown that they were wrong and doing so will make them money.

    If you want to debate whether those leads will be underpaid or find less support from the studios than their white counterparts we can absolutely do that, and you'd probably find there's not much disagreement. But if we're talking about another topic altogether it's helpful not to declare me wrong and then "explain" how when I never addressed the topic you're bringing up in the first place. I mean, you can but it's neither here nor there. What the kids call a "strawman", I believe (create a position for another person you'd rather argue against than the one they're actually making).
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  14. #8369
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Judging by their reaction to the Shang actor....

    Only if it fits what they expect lol.
    Tbf Idk how much of the Chinese population that is, considering how restricted everything is over there. It wasn't a nice reaction though

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Bigotry is rewarded and funded in American society and this has always been the reality. The culture of law enforcement is another structure in place to provide living wages to largely unskilled labor in overseeing the 1/5 of the largely Black population. Same with the prison complex. Same with the NCAA, the black sports fund the white sports. I actually have no idea what this country would look like without the procurement of bodies that came from Africa and their descendants.

    So no, you're kind of, sort of, way fucking way off in believing, that one thing, is worth more than money in American.
    That's true, capitalistic thinking isn't always rational, and much of it is tied to bigoted, hierarchical ideals

    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    They would be, the domestic audience probably not so much as a standard rule. We'll see how Shang Chi does (though I do wish they'd gone with an East Asian hero who wasn't yet another martial artist). I'm hoping it's good, and if not good at least successful (but with the Disney logo it's probably a lock for several hundred million).
    I assume they went with Shang-Chi because he's the most well known Asian Marvel hero, which itself is rooted in him being around longer but from a time where these stereotypes were even more prevalent. I hope eventually characters like Amadeus Cho get adapted too. Silk is also supposedly getting a show.

    I hope it's good and successful

  15. #8370
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post



    While I'd agree what you're talking about is messed up, it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. That point, again, was that racist people in power who traditionally wouldn't allow black/POC actors to star/lead a movie or TV show for fear a large enough portion of their population would stay away or not be interested will change their minds when it's shown that they were wrong and doing so will make them money.
    Hmmmmmm... Can you give some examples of this actually happening? Cuz...

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