Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Adam Allen]

Aren't Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver Romani for the moment?

I actually thought they always were? Like, Magneto was Jewish but his kids were raised Romani because of the mom's side? Um, of course, they also were no longer his kids anymore last I recall, so who knows?

And I can't say I'm in love with the notion of Gal Gadot as Cleopatra necessarily, but I think it could be done in a way as to not be just completely offensive. You basically can't just have all the Egyptians be white ... you know, the movie could take the opportunity to suggest Egypt was not just all once race or ethnicity, even then. Which would definitely be dismissed as PC or whatever by some, but honestly I feel like it's your safest bet, if you're going to go there at all.

[Username taken]

Cleopatra's ethnicity has been disputed for so long that I'm not sure if Gadot's casting is right or wrong. I'd say the problem is them making a Cleopatra movie at all not who is cast in it.

Quoted for truth.

[achilles]

Cleopatra's ethnicity has been disputed for so long that I'm not sure if Gadot's casting is right or wrong. I'd say the problem is them making a Cleopatra movie at all not who is cast in it.

It isn't really disputed, not by anyone reputable. She's as has been said simply a Macedonian Greek. This is something called Afrocentrism, an completely discredited attempt to hijack the history of certain groups, (largely ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt), to steal it for black Africans...and African Americans. Which is odd as they have their own interesting and valuable history that has largely gone unnoticed by most everyone, including those pushing Afrocentrism, which also states that Socrates was black, (he wasn't, he was an Athenian Greek citizen, as were his parents).

Gadot is not a good actress, in fact, she's pretty bad, but she likely looks somewhat like Cleopatra probably did, save that Gadot is likely considerably prettier than the Greek woman. Cleo's exact skin tone is unknown and likely impossible to know. The depiction above though is likely inaccurate.

There is literally no evidence at all that Cleo was black...or Egyptian. Her own coinage and other physical depictions from her own time depict her a a Greek woman weaing Greek clothes with Greek hairstyles. She is also the first Ptolemy to bother to learn Egyptian, (along with about a dozen other languages).

It is a rather offensive proposition IMO, stealing someone else's history and claiming it as your own when it isn't.

[Agent Z]

[Moon Ronin]

Cleopatra's ethnicity has been disputed for so long that I'm not sure if Gadot's casting is right or wrong. I'd say the problem is them making a Cleopatra movie at all not who is cast in it.

Not too many dispute it at all. The Ptolemy family were know for there maintaining a "pure" blood line so much that Cleopatra married both of her brothers. At most she may have been a quarter Egyptian. Archelogy and DNA of mummies show that during that time the vast majority of Egyptians looked like they do today, think Rami Malek. To be honest If a black woman was cast in the roll I won't care as long as the story and acting were good. "Historical accuracy" in a movie is really not a big point for me. I don't watch it to be educated I watch it to be entertained. In truth Gadot is to pretty to play the role. Cleopatra was most likely an unremarkable looking woman. The stories about her beauty were most likely developed as to explained how a woman was able to influence two of the most powerful men of the era.

Cleopatra was one of the greatest rulers in history. She was able to keep her country independent for years in the age of Roman imperialism. She learned over 9 different languages being the first in all of Ptolemy rule over Egypt to actually learn the the native language. Under her rule the GDP was do high that when Rome finally took over Egypt's resources it was so much that they able to lower taxes for years after. I think that a movie about one of the (if not the) strongest woman rulers in history is not a problem.

[Frontier]

This is totally going to be Mera in Injustice 3.

[achilles]

Not too many dispute it at all. The Ptolemy family were know for there maintaining a "pure" blood line so much that Cleopatra married both of her brothers. At most she may have been a quarter Egyptian. Archelogy and DNA of mummies show that during that time the vast majority of Egyptians looked like they do today, think Rami Malek. To be honest If a black woman was cast in the roll I won't care as long as the story and acting were good. "Historical accuracy" in a movie is really not a big point for me. I don't watch it to be educated I watch it to be entertained. In truth Gadot is to pretty to play the role. Cleopatra was most likely an unremarkable looking woman. The stories about her beauty were most likely developed as to explained how a woman was able to influence two of the most powerful men of the era.

Cleopatra was one of the greatest rulers in history. She was able to keep her country independent for years in the age of Roman imperialism. She learned over 9 different languages being the first in all of Ptolemy rule over Egypt to actually learn the the native language. Under her rule the GDP was do high that when Rome finally took over Egypt's resources it was so much that they able to lower taxes for years after. I think that a movie about one of the (if not the) strongest woman rulers in history is not a problem.

Well, Cleo wasn't Egyptian at all. She may have had a bit of Selucid blood in her, but they were simply another branch of Alexander's generals ruling in Syria. And thus also Macedonian.

My problem with Gadot is her lack of acting ability, rather than her looks or ethnicity. Though of course she is prettier than the actual Cleo was supposed to be.

That said however, I think a fairly accurate biopic about one of the most famous and influential women in history could be a great idea. As always though, execution is where it's at.

[chief12d]

It isn't really disputed, not by anyone reputable. She's as has been said simply a Macedonian Greek. This is something called Afrocentrism, an completely discredited attempt to hijack the history of certain groups, (largely ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt), to steal it for black Africans...and African Americans. Which is odd as they have their own interesting and valuable history that has largely gone unnoticed by most everyone, including those pushing Afrocentrism, which also states that Socrates was black, (he wasn't, he was an Athenian Greek citizen, as were his parents).

Gadot is not a good actress, in fact, she's pretty bad, but she likely looks somewhat like Cleopatra probably did, save that Gadot is likely considerably prettier than the Greek woman. Cleo's exact skin tone is unknown and likely impossible to know. The depiction above though is likely inaccurate.

There is literally no evidence at all that Cleo was black...or Egyptian. Her own coinage and other physical depictions from her own time depict her a a Greek woman weaing Greek clothes with Greek hairstyles. She is also the first Ptolemy to bother to learn Egyptian, (along with about a dozen other languages).

It is a rather offensive proposition IMO, stealing someone else's history and claiming it as your own when it isn't.

If the same people begging Hollywood to make Cleopatra black were even half as vocal about a Mansa Musa or Amina of Zaria film we'd have gotten them by now. That we're getting a film about a freaking African samurai before any of those figures speaks volumes about audiences' priorities. There's lots of black African history that's been downplayed or simply ignored but the usual suspects are obsessed with claiming Egypt as if its the only place in Africa that produced a vibrant culture.

Afrocentrism as a broad idea of historical analysis for African civilizations is a good thing. As toxic and ahistorical as it can sometimes get, the wider cultural ignorance and devaluation of African history is just as, if not more harmful and untrue, so it deserves a counterpoint. Not all Afrocentric approaches to history are inherently about claiming non-black cultures as African. But the frankly pathetic extents to which some are willing to go to claim Egypt and other North African civilizations has a detrimental effect on genuine analyses of true black civilizations. It also reeks of insecurity and desperation, only perpetuating this idea that black people don't have a significant history before white people came along.

So yea Gal Gadot as Cleopatra doesn't bother me, though I wish they had picked a better actress. If people put enough pressure on Hollywood to make actual black queens, they have some great ones to pick from like Amina or Kandake.

[Adam Allen]

Not too many dispute it at all. The Ptolemy family were know for there maintaining a "pure" blood line so much that Cleopatra married both of her brothers. At most she may have been a quarter Egyptian. Archelogy and DNA of mummies show that during that time the vast majority of Egyptians looked like they do today, think Rami Malek. To be honest If a black woman was cast in the roll I won't care as long as the story and acting were good. "Historical accuracy" in a movie is really not a big point for me. I don't watch it to be educated I watch it to be entertained. In truth Gadot is to pretty to play the role. Cleopatra was most likely an unremarkable looking woman. The stories about her beauty were most likely developed as to explained how a woman was able to influence two of the most powerful men of the era.

Cleopatra was one of the greatest rulers in history. She was able to keep her country independent for years in the age of Roman imperialism. She learned over 9 different languages being the first in all of Ptolemy rule over Egypt to actually learn the the native language. Under her rule the GDP was do high that when Rome finally took over Egypt's resources it was so much that they able to lower taxes for years after. I think that a movie about one of the (if not the) strongest woman rulers in history is not a problem.

... you know what, I guess it's your mention of GDP, but suddenly I think about "alternative facts" and how wildly narratives can vary about something that just happened last night, or something even actively happening in the moment today, and this is with the benefit of technology today, when our ability to communicate is like sci-fi compared to even a few decades ago.

I mean, it's funny ... think of all the things that are facts for like the QAnon people, compared to what are facts for Bernie supporters, then compared to your political moderate, and compared again to someone who doesn't follow politics, would not watch or read a news program unless under threat of violence. All of these people would offer wildly different information about people and stories that are happening right now. So, kind of interesting how certain we can feel about the details of things that happened thousands of years ago; you know, as if that information has somehow come to us all without any kind of filter, as compared to information about things happening in the modern world.

Unfortunately think I now come down to the opinion I think it's just a bad idea to make a Cleopatra movie, at all.

[Adam Allen]

I mean, covid is a Democratic hoax, wearing masks make us less safe to the virus, and Donald Trump is immune to it. And everybody knows these are the facts.

[achilles]

If the same people begging Hollywood to make Cleopatra black were even half as vocal about a Mansa Musa or Amina of Zaria film we'd have gotten them by now. That we're getting a film about a freaking African samurai before any of those figures speaks volumes about audiences' priorities. There's lots of black African history that's been downplayed or simply ignored but the usual suspects are obsessed with claiming Egypt as if its the only place in Africa that produced a vibrant culture.

Afrocentrism as a broad idea of historical analysis for African civilizations is a good thing. As toxic and ahistorical as it can sometimes get, the wider cultural ignorance and devaluation of African history is just as, if not more harmful and untrue, so it deserves a counterpoint. Not all Afrocentric approaches to history are inherently about claiming non-black cultures as African. But the frankly pathetic extents to which some are willing to go to claim Egypt and other North African civilizations has a detrimental effect on genuine analyses of true black civilizations. It also reeks of insecurity and desperation, only perpetuating this idea that black people don't have a significant history before white people came along.

So yea Gal Gadot as Cleopatra doesn't bother me, though I wish they had picked a better actress. If people put enough pressure on Hollywood to make actual black queens, they have some great ones to pick from like Amina or Kandake.

I thought the bit I highlighted deserves a bit more emphasis. It does indeed come across that way. As you point out, there is plenty of African history to equal anything out there, and yet it's just not taught or widely known, and indeed much of the effort and resources that are devoted to say for example Egyptology simply isn't there when it comes to doing the archaeology for those civilizations. Why not start remedying all of that instead of doing everyone a disservice?

[Agent Z]

If the same people begging Hollywood to make Cleopatra black were even half as vocal about a Mansa Musa or Amina of Zaria film we'd have gotten them by now. That we're getting a film about a freaking African samurai before any of those figures speaks volumes about audiences' priorities. There's lots of black African history that's been downplayed or simply ignored but the usual suspects are obsessed with claiming Egypt as if its the only place in Africa that produced a vibrant culture.

Afrocentrism as a broad idea of historical analysis for African civilizations is a good thing. As toxic and ahistorical as it can sometimes get, the wider cultural ignorance and devaluation of African history is just as, if not more harmful and untrue, so it deserves a counterpoint. Not all Afrocentric approaches to history are inherently about claiming non-black cultures as African. But the frankly pathetic extents to which some are willing to go to claim Egypt and other North African civilizations has a detrimental effect on genuine analyses of true black civilizations. It also reeks of insecurity and desperation, only perpetuating this idea that black people don't have a significant history before white people came along.

So yea Gal Gadot as Cleopatra doesn't bother me, though I wish they had picked a better actress. If people put enough pressure on Hollywood to make actual black queens, they have some great ones to pick from like Amina or Kandake.

Chadwick Boseman was supposed to star in that movie iirc. Is it still happening?

I don't think audiences can be blamed for what movies Hollywood makes given the number of times they've made movies that audiences most certainly were not asking for. Just look at the MCU - how many people were asking for an Iron Man movie starring Robert Downey, Jr before 2008?

I don't think Gadot is a bad actress. She isn't perfect but there are worse.

[Moon Ronin]

Well, Cleo wasn't Egyptian at all. She may have had a bit of Selucid blood in her, but they were simply another branch of Alexander's generals ruling in Syria. And thus also Macedonian.

My problem with Gadot is her lack of acting ability, rather than her looks or ethnicity. Though of course she is prettier than the actual Cleo was supposed to be.

That said however, I think a fairly accurate biopic about one of the most famous and influential women in history could be a great idea. As always though, execution is where it's at.

The key was "may have been" there are questions about her mother and paternal grandmother but with the xenophobia of the Ptolemys it is most likely not the case.

If the same people begging Hollywood to make Cleopatra black were even half as vocal about a Mansa Musa or Amina of Zaria film we'd have gotten them by now. That we're getting a film about a freaking African samurai before any of those figures speaks volumes about audiences' priorities. There's lots of black African history that's been downplayed or simply ignored but the usual suspects are obsessed with claiming Egypt as if its the only place in Africa that produced a vibrant culture.

Afrocentrism as a broad idea of historical analysis for African civilizations is a good thing. As toxic and ahistorical as it can sometimes get, the wider cultural ignorance and devaluation of African history is just as, if not more harmful and untrue, so it deserves a counterpoint. Not all Afrocentric approaches to history are inherently about claiming non-black cultures as African. But the frankly pathetic extents to which some are willing to go to claim Egypt and other North African civilizations has a detrimental effect on genuine analyses of true black civilizations. It also reeks of insecurity and desperation, only perpetuating this idea that black people don't have a significant history before white people came along.

So yea Gal Gadot as Cleopatra doesn't bother me, though I wish they had picked a better actress. If people put enough pressure on Hollywood to make actual black queens, they have some great ones to pick from like Amina or Kandake.

You hit on a lot there but I think that is the biggest point. There is so much story to tell that has not been told from an entire continent. It seems now to only to have been inhabited in the north in ancient times or that it's history began with European colonization. Again I watch movies to be entertained but that does not mean that they can not be a reason that I further educate myself on their subject matter.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Gadot's isreali, I don't see how casting her for Cleopatra is far off.

Sidenote, after reading that James Bond was created as a symbol of imperialism it would be a bit ironic to cast some non-white to play him.

[OopsIdiditagain]

So yea Gal Gadot as Cleopatra doesn't bother me, though I wish they had picked a better actress. If people put enough pressure on Hollywood to make actual black queens, they have some great ones to pick from like Amina or Kandake.

I'd care more if they cast Gal Gadot for these roles:

1.Queen Nyamazana (Ngoni 1835-1890s)

The Ngoni people, more than a million strong, consisting of a dozen sub-groups of Bantu speaking people scattered throughout Eastern Africa, each forming an independent state with its own ruler. Nyamazana was one of the many Ngoni leaders. She was a military genius who pillaged through Zimbabwe taking over territory. When Mzilikazi (Ndebele founding King) eventually came into Zimbabwe, Nyamazana formed an alliance with him through marriage and her people integrated into the Ndebele. The Ndebele can be found in modern-day Zimbabwe in the Matabeleland province.

2.Queen Nzinga
Queen Nzinga of Angola is one of the most celebrated African women to resist European colonisation. Nzinga Mbande led four decades (1620s to 1660s) of warfare against the Portuguese in Angola.