Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Anthony Shaw]

I heard that story, but the version I heard blamed Jim Shooter for the edict.

I could be wrong, that was a way while ago I remember reading that.

This is my first time hearing Shooter being a part of that fiasco. Mark was pretty big on pushing Cap in order to better promote his run on Steve's solo book.

An issue of Thor guest starred the Avengers, and showed Monica second-guessing herself while Cap (who had been stripped of his uniform & shield by the government was showing natural leadership). Steve also had major beef with Tony Stark at the time (the Armor Wars), and Thor was unsure on which buddy to side with. That Thor issue also featured the first time Steve Rogers picked up Mjolnir which pretty much made Thor part of team Cap. I liked the push that Cap got, but I did not like how it was done at Monica's expense.



Then, in the Avengers' book, Monica was severely de-powered after Namor's wife (her name escapes me) literally turned into some levitation-kinda sea monster which helped a corrupted Doctor Druid become the new leader.

That Sista just could not catch a break, post Roger Stern.

I felt the same way about Sync & Bishop after Scott Lobdell left the X-Men books.

I could even throw in John Stewart when Steve Englehart, and later Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) were no longer the main writers on the character.

I might as well throw in the Panther/Storm marriage when Hudlin, McDuffie, and Liss were gone. It was the first time I ever saw Storm like a human being with a regular since of humor (imo).

When certain creators are not safeguarding certain black characters, they become easy prey for less respectful writers.

[Anthony Shaw]

I used to be a comic reader first, now I'm a collector first which means now I circulate out a lot of older stuff for fewer, even older stuff. Monica was on some GREAT covers back in the day when I was a yout as leader of The Avengers. Sounds crazy now but she got a decent push during a time when there wasn't no regular Black Panther stories in the 80s which meant there wasn't any black capes working outside of Mohawk Ororo. Those old Monica lead Avengers are part of a short box I still haven't parted with that I read the **** out of back in grade school.

When I think about it, Monica was top of the black hero food chain at Marvel during the 1980's. Sure, Luke, Rhodey, and Storm were also prominent at that time. But Luke's book (with Iron Fist) was winding down, and James Rhodes' run as Iron Man was temporary. Monica was leading the Avengers, with full support from Cap (which was cool). Let's be honest, while Storm was the leader of the X-Men, Wolverine was the top draw. Roger Stern was the last great Avengers' writer before Busiek, imo. She was in a lot of great stories. Monica was part of both Secret Wars. She was not another hand-to-hand fighter. She could challenge gods!

She was putting both Namor & Hercules in check!





Even though she could not beat Zeus, she did save Thor's hide, literally. At the time, Hela put a curse on Thor that prevented him from dying, but incapable of healing from any injuries, and Zeus was beating the crap outta him.

[Anthony Shaw]

James Rhodes as Iron Man trying hard, but totally failing, at spitting game at Monica.

[Anthony Shaw]

But yeah, I'll be a very happy camper once Monica shows up in the MCU.

She should have been big time during the 1990's, if not for BS politics.

[ed2962]

That's what I heard. She's been in and out of limbo since since Roger Stern (her co-creator) stopped writing the Avengers.


I also heard that some writers did not want to use her out of respect for Stern, but that makes no sense.

I'd argue it makes more sense than she's "too powerful." Like others have pointed out, Thor, Hulk, Dr Strange, Superman, Green Lanterns (two at the same time!) have been on teams. During the 70's the Surfer didn't have a solo because most of the writers felt he was Stan's baby and wouldn't do it until Stan said it was ok. There's similar rumors about the use of other characters like Mar-Vell and Electra...

[Anthony Shaw]

I'd argue it makes more sense than she's "too powerful." Like others have pointed out, Thor, Hulk, Dr Strange, Superman, Green Lanterns (two at the same time!) have been on teams. During the 70's the Surfer didn't have a solo because most of the writers felt he was Stan's baby and wouldn't do it until Stan said it was ok. There's similar rumors about the use of other characters like Mar-Vell and Electra...

I am familiar with all the examples you mentioned. However, Monica still made sporadic appearances during the 1990's, and beyond. She still would appear in Avenger stories. She was in Operation Galactic Storm. As I posted earlier, her code name was stolen twice by the same character. After the 1980's, Roger Stern only did a handful of projects for Marvel.

Minor appearances and having your code name stolen does not scream "respect" to me.

Now, I have heard that some fans (and possibly creators) did not like how fast Monica became leader, or that her power level made her one of the most powerful Avengers ever. But Roger Stern wrote a very balanced, capable, and competent character. Monica was no Mary Sue.

I personally feel that creators did not want to use Monica in their stories.

[Anthony Shaw]

I need to find the source, but had Roger Stern stayed on the Avengers, he would have made Luke Cage a member. That team would have featured Monica, She-Hulk, and Luke Cage....half the line-up of the Mighty Avengers from a few years ago.

[Overhazard]

Exactly! It's so annoying how POC's get stuck in mid tier land, especially black characters. There was Amadeus Cho before he got depowered into braun, yet they have a freakin new character that has both hulk and wolverine powers combine. But of course he's white so he's allowed to have both....

I honestly don't know why Hulkverine has stuck around this long. He just seemed like a bad idea from the start.

[skyvolt2000]

People often said Monica's lack of usage was her supposedly being too powerful to have consistently in a team book (which seems suspect, but whatever). So now I guess we see if those folks put up or shut up.

Funny that is ALWAYS an issue with POC.

Batman himself said Jason Rusch was too powerful to NOT be in Justice League or alone. He's not that anymore. Meanwhile Ronnie is flying around free at the center of an event.

Aqualad-anyone notice we haven't see much of him. Isn't the planet made mostly of water and what are his powers?

Vixen-can be ANY animal she wants. Where is she at?

John Stewart-military architect. It's not even worth typing about him.

Cyborg-see John Stewart

Jakeem Thunder.

Also where is Prodigy? If he was all the memories of folks he met before he got depowered-how POWERFUL is he? Why hasn't Doom or Thanos ran after him?

Or Alex Wilder? Thunderball? Nightshade? Cardiac? Didn't Thunderball help make the Hulk?

I also heard that some writers did not want to use her out of respect for Stern, but that makes no sense.

It's an excuse. However it makes sense when you look at how long Bendis, G Willow Wilson & Decconnick stayed on Miles, Riri, Ms Marvel, Jessica Jones & Carol's books.

They left those guys at a point to where usage would NEVER be an issue with those guys. SOMEBODY was going to use them.

Sounds crazy now but she got a decent push during a time when there wasn't no regular Black Panther stories in the 80s which meant there wasn't any black capes working outside of Mohawk Ororo.

Well you had 2 others IF you could find the books.

Sabre by the guy from Luke Cage at First comics. There was even a Storm look alike as the villain.

Strike from Eclispe/First by Chuck Dixon who bytch about store not selling the book. Art was by Tom Lyle. A few years before their Batman run. Interesting about Strike was he got 7 issues and in an event. Sadly he DIED saving everyone.

I do way too much dollar bin digging.

[RoxanneBluePots]

I really don't get the "overpowered" argument against Monica Rambeau when no one seemed to really complain about Jean Grey being a god-tier mutant who never solved everyone's problems and battles with her Phoenix Force boosted power-set.

I honestly think it's as simple as Marvel's editorial group and writing staff plain disliking the character to the point of apathy and that's it. It's clear there's an aggressively distinct angle of misogynoir to the character's circumstance because how else would explain Marvel doing everything in their power to make sure people forget her stint as Captain Marvel (including excluding her from CM timelines), or not even allowing her to be a "omega"-type superhero? Even with Storm's popularity, the same thing keeps happening to her as well.

I kinda wish someone would just buy the character from Marvel and put her to better use somewhere.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Roger Stern's run on the book was classic Avengers. I love that run and how he did Monica and have her slowly move up into leadership role as we saw. There was so many great stories and issues in that. Its just sad that editorial demanded Captain America become the leader of the Avengers again near #300 and to make Monica look bad. Which led Stern to leave and then for like 20+ issues we had rotating writings since no one stayed long term til Harras came on.

I don't hate Harras run since I did love his Black Knight run on the book. He settled the book down after 20+ issues where various writers had came on and off the book (Byrne and Simonson) . So him getting the book long after what happened to Monica is sad. Maybe he would have handled it better perhaps as writer. Who knows...

But yeah just imagine if Stern didn't get forced off because of the editor forcing that and how long it may have lasted.

[ed2962]

I am familiar with all the examples you mentioned. However, Monica still made sporadic appearances during the 1990's, and beyond. She still would appear in Avenger stories. She was in Operation Galactic Storm. As I posted earlier, her code name was stolen twice by the same character. After the 1980's, Roger Stern only did a handful of projects for Marvel.

Minor appearances and having your code name stolen does not scream "respect" to me.

Now, I have heard that some fans (and possibly creators) did not like how fast Monica became leader, or that her power level made her one of the most powerful Avengers ever. But Roger Stern wrote a very balanced, capable, and competent character. Monica was no Mary Sue.

I personally feel that creators did not want to use Monica in their stories.

I think we agree on the larger point. I didn't mean to suggest that Marvel as a company respected Stern or Monica, but that Stern had some friends at the time there who didn't want to stir things up. Plus, there's undoubtedly writers who simply weren't that interested in her just on a subjective level. What you said about her losing her code name twice, to the same character no less, is completely true.

[Kurt Busiek]

I heard that story, but the version I heard blamed Jim Shooter for the edict.

I could be wrong, that was a way while ago I remember reading that.

It was Mark. Couldn't have been Jim, since he'd just recently been fired, and wasn't making any edicts any more.

Mark wanted to boost sales on Captain America (which he wrote) by having him in a bigger spotlight as leader of the Avengers (which he edited).

He was both smart and a nice guy, but it was an absolute conflict of interest that shouldn't have happened.

kdb

[Mr.Majestic]

What is China's status with LGBT?

Do they even allow movies that approach the subject?

The Chinese population are pretty cool with LGBTTIQQ2SA(Dagnabbit that's just too damned long), especially the younger generation but the PROC is very much on the fence about it so NO is their knee-jerk answer to any such situation involving LGBTTIQQ2SA... Seriously they gotta figure out something more succinct. Brevity is something to shoot for. Easy to put on a placard, easy to shout...

Why am I not surprised. we can't have high level black characters, We can't be among the strongest, fastest, etc,

That's one of the biggest reasons of my main characters from my superhero universe is shazam/superman/wonder woman level who's black. The fact
that we keep getting stuck with low to mid tier area is quite frankly ridiculous.

On the flipside I loathe OP Mary Sue/Gary Stu minority characters. So only White characters get to be well developed and three dimensional with faults and weaknesses? I want my heroes to lose only to come back better than ever. IMHO Carol Danvers was a fail because all she did was win. T'challa on the other hand was defeated by Killmonger but then returned with friends in tow.

I disliked Blue Marvel but loved Icon. Making a new character OP is a mistake a lot of writers make to get fans to tune in just like turning a character into some Don Juan/Casanova type. Case in point when they turn Wolverine into some mack daddy, the guy's 5'3", unsociable and probably smells real bad. How many characters has he hooked up with? Jean Grey, Storm, Viper, Domino, Mystique, Rogue, Silver Fox, Red Sonja, Elektra, Witchblade, Black Cat, Lady Deathstrike, Snowbird, Invisible Woman(?), Squirrel Girl(?!), Gaea(?!?)and Hercules.

[Mr.Majestic]

Something much more exciting than Angelina Jolie getting hired is Ma Dong-seok getting cast in Eternals. He's the bad ass from Train to Busan.

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Didn't know he spoke English and was a personal trainer to Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman back in the day. I hope he gets a solid role, Phastos, the Forgotten One, Hercules, Zuras or f-it let's dream big Ikaris himself. Also didn't know the guy was this big.

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