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  1. #4321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    They were trying to sell COMICS fans on a Cyborg that had never been in the Titans and wasn't Beast Boy's buddy.

    I'm not surprised that they could never get any real traction. If you cared about Cyborg in the first place there's an even
    chance that you might not care about this version.

    You have to have some kind of idea on who your audience is.The same goes for Female Wolverine.

    For decades Marvel had been selling Comic Book Clint Eastwood to primarily dudes. Replacing him with a hot teen and her cute little sister is kinda missing
    the entire point of that book for half that audience.

    Like, Replacing Punisher with a Female would have been just as big of a misstep, imo.

    .
    But they still had Comic Book Clint Eastwood, all they to do to find it was look one shelf over. Old Man Logan was the same character despite being from a future timeline.

    And as for replacing Frank Castle with a female...

    Last edited by ed2962; 09-11-2019 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #4322
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Eh, those two are night and day differences. Cyborg issue wasn't his "required ties" of having Titans and Beast Boy companions, it's DC not having a clear vision on what they want to do with Cyborg and refusing to place him in the same tier as his Justice League counterparts. Even in the movie, he gets worfed aka pulled apart just to indicate how tough the villain is. When you treat your new hero as second rate versus his counterparts in your top hero team in your universe, people are going to turn off.

    This was why JLO was originally so celebrated, because it attempted to course correct much of the damage new 52 did by making him a leader, capable, and transitioning out of the classic man vs machine cycle he seems to constantly be in since New 52. Of course all of that went out the window since the last two issues, but that again indicates just how DC just doesn't want to treat him right.


    X-23, on the other hand. as Wolverine was among the best selling Marvel book during that time, selling better than most current classic heroes. She even sold better than Mighty Thor. So unlike Cyborg, X-23 as wolverine was a massive success. So she definitely found an audience, rather it was the current readership or a bit of new readers coming in to enjoy. But like the other heroes, she lost popularity after her series was canceled and they transitioned her back to X-23.
    And that's the problem with the other half of the fans ( and comic book market in general). Laura was the same character doing the same stuff she was doing as Wolverine, but as X-23 she doesn't sell as well.

    It's like fans want to spend money not on characters or stories, but the costume and trademark.

  3. #4323
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    And that's the problem with the other half of the fans ( and comic book market in general). Laura was the same character doing the same stuff she was doing as Wolverine, but as X-23 she doesn't sell as well.

    It's like fans want to spend money not on characters or stories, but the costume and trademark.
    Comic market is freaking weird lol

    It isn't a net gain for marvel comics if the legacy hero replaces the others sales and matches them. It is only a net gain when they bring the hero back and the legacy can still sell.

    I'll never understand why a name matters though. In laura's case, i think they should have just kept old man logan around. People liked him anyway and he fit themore classic Wolverie anyway.
    Last edited by MindofShadow; 09-12-2019 at 06:20 AM.
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  4. #4324
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Comic market is freaking weird lol

    It isn't a net gain for marvel comics if the legacy hero replaces the others sales and matches them. It is only a net gain when they bring the hero back and the legacy can still sell.

    I'll never understand why a name matters though. In laura's case, i think they should have just kept old man logan around. People liked him anyway and he fit themore classic Wolverie anyway.
    I guess it's because a name is attached to a brand. Name recognition helps bring in those ever elusive new readers Marvel bends over backwards to get. I loved Laura as wolverine, but I may be biased as she and Rogue are the only X-Men I still like, though Hickman may change my mind, he made me care about Hyperion so anything is possible.

  5. #4325
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    And that's the problem with the other half of the fans ( and comic book market in general). Laura was the same character doing the same stuff she was doing as Wolverine, but as X-23 she doesn't sell as well.

    It's like fans want to spend money not on characters or stories, but the costume and trademark.
    Well of course the costume or legacy plays a major portion to the character. Why do you think Miles Morales sells so well, it's because he's represents a spider man that more than one person can be. If Miles Morales was a new character under a different name, he wouldn't have sold anywhere near the degree. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to have characters represent that mantle. I know of Miles Morales decided he would no longer be spider man, I wouldn't read the book that's for sure.

    You only need to watch Into The Spider-Verse to see why the name matters and why it's important to have people feel like anyone can represent the mantle.
    Last edited by leo619; 09-12-2019 at 09:18 AM.

  6. #4326
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Well of course the costume or legacy plays a major portion to the character. Why do you think Miles Morales sells so well, it's because he's represents a spider man that more than one person can be. If Miles Morales was a new character under a different name, he wouldn't have sold anywhere near the degree. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to have characters represent that mantle. I know of Miles Morales decided he would no longer be spider man, I wouldn't read the book that's for sure.

    You only need to watch Into The Spider-Verse to see why the name matters and why it's important to have people feel like anyone can represent the mantle.
    I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with liking to see new characters take on the mantle of older characters ( I like it myself), but when the idea of being part of a franchise is more important than who those characters are, then it gets problematic. That's when all the company sees is the franchise and doesn't want to take chances on new ideas. The other side of that same coin is when fans buy titles they don't like just because their favorite hero is in it or they don't want holes in their collection. When you do that then the company has no reason to make them better. If the only new characters people buy are legacies or spin off characters, we won't get that next Black Panther or Luke Cage.

  7. #4327
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with liking to see new characters take on the mantle of older characters ( I like it myself), but when the idea of being part of a franchise is more important than who those characters are, then it gets problematic. That's when all the company sees is the franchise and doesn't want to take chances on new ideas. The other side of that same coin is when fans buy titles they don't like just because their favorite hero is in it or they don't want holes in their collection. When you do that then the company has no reason to make them better. If the only new characters people buy are legacies or spin off characters, we won't get that next Black Panther or Luke Cage.

    You're mixing the two issues into one when that's not the case. Just because one primary supports a character when she/he holds a mantle does not mean one does not support new characters. The two aren't entirely tied to one another. Are there readers that are solely interest in franchises? Certainly, but that's no different than people supporting their home sports team even when their favorite player is drafted elsewhere. They enjoy the franchise, and what the franchise represents, be it the Cleveland Browns, The Golden State Warriors, or Mighty Thor. So if Miles Morales decide to no longer become Spider Man, that may mean I would drop Miles Morales, but it doesn't have any factor on me continuing to support the Naomi series. As mentioned earlier, the two are not extrinsically linked.

  8. #4328
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    You're mixing the two issues into one when that's not the case. Just because one primary supports a character when she/he holds a mantle does not mean one does not support new characters. The two aren't entirely tied to one another. Are there readers that are solely interest in franchises? Certainly, but that's no different than people supporting their home sports team even when their favorite player is drafted elsewhere. They enjoy the franchise, and what the franchise represents, be it the Cleveland Browns, The Golden State Warriors, or Mighty Thor. So if Miles Morales decide to no longer become Spider Man, that may mean I would drop Miles Morales, but it doesn't have any factor on me continuing to support the Naomi series. As mentioned earlier, the two are not extrinsically linked.
    You're right it's not necessarily an either or thing, but for many fans it is. I mean I think most of the people in this thread are unique from the larger comics community...most of us are willing to put our money where our mouths are when it comes to what we will or won't support. Some other fans though, get outright resentful if Marvel tries to put out something new. On the other hand I've had conversations with people where they said, "I wish there was a comic that was X." And I'd say, "Such and such is publishing something like that." And they replied, "I want Marvel to do it, I don't care about other publishers." And it's like, do you want X because you enjoy X, or do you just want Marvel ( or whoever) to get credit for X? Thing is, it shouldn't matter...people can buy whatever they want to buy for whatever reason they want. But the industry is so small and the choices we have are limited, the Big 2 have no problem getting conservative with what kind of books they put out and retreat to what was successful in the past, whether it works today or not. I don't want them going, "Well, that diversity trend is over. We'll just go back to putting Wolverine in everything now." Thinking about it, things probably won't regress that far, but still...
    Last edited by ed2962; 09-12-2019 at 05:59 PM.

  9. #4329
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Comic market is freaking weird lol

    It isn't a net gain for marvel comics if the legacy hero replaces the others sales and matches them. It is only a net gain when they bring the hero back and the legacy can still sell.

    I'll never understand why a name matters though. In laura's case, i think they should have just kept old man logan around. People liked him anyway and he fit themore classic Wolverie anyway.
    I think it's possible to have a balance of familiar names around while still having names that are relatively new. On DC's part, I quite liked their Silencer series for example.


  10. #4330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Wolverine makes $$$ he was never gonna stay dead, Though I did like Old Man Logan
    Peter has grown up, He got married finished college, he mind was completely wiped of his marrage, Created (or rather Dr. Octopus) a successful business and lost it. The biggest flaw that Miles has is he has no real nemesis that is his own they are mostly borrowed or copied from peter.
    Steve Rogers is a marvel staple, he is never going to go away. Every one know it was temporary I remember reading a interview with Christopher Priest with him saying as much.

    The market for comics is narrowed and when it come to forms of media it is on the low end. WarnerMedia Entertainment having DC streaming service, HBO, TNT, TBS and a few other channels. Disney owning ABC, Free Form and a slew of other channels and Disney + coming out. They have both have very large wider reaching platforms other than comics to create new and interesting stories with as much diversity as they want. Make the character popular before the comics.
    This continued insistence that the comics be profitable on their own is an oddly petty move on Disney's part. They should be used as a test bed for new characters, concepts, and story ideas, and as part of the promotional package for the movies, especially for some of the lesser known characters. You'd think that being attached to a giant megacorp would mean that Marvel could afford to ignore immediate profitability to build the company for the long term, and avoid the downward spiral of charging ever higher prices to ever smaller audiences, but they haven't really gotten the leeway to do that.

  11. #4331
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    This continued insistence that the comics be profitable on their own is an oddly petty move on Disney's part. They should be used as a test bed for new characters, concepts, and story ideas, and as part of the promotional package for the movies, especially for some of the lesser known characters. You'd think that being attached to a giant megacorp would mean that Marvel could afford to ignore immediate profitability to build the company for the long term, and avoid the downward spiral of charging ever higher prices to ever smaller audiences, but they haven't really gotten the leeway to do that.
    Disney doesn't care about comic book sales. A few years back when they bought Marvel, they were pretty upfront about the fact they wanted access to Marvel's library of characters for movies, animation, etc.

  12. #4332
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    According to rumors, Marvel has narrowed down the casting choice of She-Hulk to Rosario Dawson and Rhonda Rousey.

    https://twitter.com/theatretalk1/sta...516377097?s=21

  13. #4333
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    According to rumors, Marvel has narrowed down the casting choice of She-Hulk to Rosario Dawson and Rhonda Rousey.

    https://twitter.com/theatretalk1/sta...516377097?s=21
    Hopefully they go with Rosario Dawson.
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  14. #4334
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Hopefully they go with Rosario Dawson.
    Asuka's wrestling promos were way better than Rhonda's. Her English isn't the best so she had to sell with her body language and stage presence, and she did it so well. Rhonda...didn't.

  15. #4335
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    I'm gonna say no to both Rosario & Rhonda.

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