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  1. #8731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    That one was interesting to say the least.

    Spider-man has been accused of somehow reinforcing police brutality.

    It certainly was a somewhat bewildering discussion.
    I remember the game being criticized because it showed Spider-Man working with cops to spy on citizens and ignored violence by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I understand.

    But as a person that's on the receiving end of said action, it's more of a human rights issue than anything else.
    I'm sorry that's happened to you. It is a human rights issue, but that's part of culture. It's part of some peoples' culture to hate others and want them to be oppressed. And that manifests in things like pop culture. So I can't really separate the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    If said criticism completely misses the mark, then what's the point?

    Into the Spider-verse isn't "copaganda" not in the slightest. That's like saying because a movie has a white man then the movie must be racist because a lot of white people are racist. Or that every movie with a multicultural cast with a white person must condemn racism to prove it's not a racist work. It doesn't work.
    Idk exactly what the criticism was, tbh. So it's hard for me to gauge.

    But I think the concept of the crime fighting vigilante as a whole needs to be rethought

  2. #8732
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    I remember the game being criticized because it showed Spider-Man working with cops to spy on citizens and ignored violence by police
    I understand the criticism of policing and excessive force but I think the discussion around that should be more on vigilantism as a whole. Spider-man's actions in the game didn't really reinforce the negative aspects of policing.

    I'm sorry that's happened to you. It is a human rights issue, but that's part of culture. It's part of some peoples' culture to hate others and want them to be oppressed. And that manifests in things like pop culture. So I can't really separate the two.
    That's why everything shouldn't be treated as liberal vs conservative. As you can well see, our perspectives are quite different because of our backgrounds (although to be clear, I'm not exactly directly affected by these laws because I've moved further north to Canada ...Canada as a whole set of problems too though). Sometimes, some things are just right or wrong and sometimes they aren't, restricting people's rights to vote is just wrong.


    Idk exactly what the criticism was, tbh. So it's hard for me to gauge.

    But I think the concept of the crime fighting vigilante as a whole needs to be rethought
    It's a valid debate to be had but not with Into the Spider-Verse. Although, I generally have some thoughts on the issue of vigilantism. I am largely against superheroes using lethal force. Granted superheroes are fictional, we've seen how real life people who feel the "only way is the hard way" act when they are given a "license to kill".

    For street level characters like Batman and Daredevil, the writers need to address the imbalance between himself and his villains and the how the entire universe works. When the no-kill code was in full effect, most supervillains were a lot less violent than they are today and it made sense that Batman would simply punch out the Joker when he committed some crimes. But now, we have a Joker that's a mass murderer and Batman simply beats him up throws him Arkham and he escapes again to kill even more. This is pretty much the same with every Batman villain. This doesn't make sense anymore. This simply means that Batman is literally failing in his war against the villains and at certain point he'll have to simply re-think being Batman at all. He might want to consider an approach that involve him wearing a mask at all, maybe he should use his money to build a super hi-tech prison in the Phantom Zone or Mars or something to permanently get these guys off the board.
    Last edited by Username taken; 07-31-2021 at 11:31 AM.

  3. #8733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I understand the criticism of policing and excessive force but I think the discussion around that should be more on vigilantism as a whole. Spider-man's actions in the game didn't really reinforce the negative aspects of policing.
    I think it was accused of doing so because it took only a surface level look at policing, and criminalization. Plus, there was the whole radar map thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    That's why everything shouldn't be treated as liberal vs conservative. As you can well see, our perspectives are quite different because of our backgrounds (although to be clear, I'm not exactly directly affected by these laws because I've moved further north to Canada ...Canada as a whole set of problems too though). Sometimes, some things are just right or wrong and sometimes they aren't, restricting people's rights to vote is just wrong.
    Yeah, but "both-sides-ing" everything doesn't work either. Sometimes groups opposing things are motivated by political opinions. It's not that every member of political groups agrees on everything. Or that politics should be partisan. But we can't pretend like every group acts with good faith. Or that a "reasonable compromise" always works. And for groups, especially minority ones, whose voices have been ignored or actively suppressed for so long, "meet in the middle" doesn't really work. Just look at the residential schools in Canada. I've spent time in Canada too, and I don't see a "Both sides" to this. Just like attacks on voter restrictions aren't coming from different sides of a debate. It's clearly one side. Or take climate change as an other example. It doesn't mean we should attack or abuse one another. I dislike all that, too, especially with how dramatized and tabloid-like some news has become. But I also dislike false middles and ineffective centrism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It's a valid debate to be had but not with Into the Spider-Verse. Although, I generally have some thoughts on the issue of vigilantism. I am largely against superheroes using lethal force. Granted superheroes are fictional, we've seen how real life people who feel the "only way is the hard way" act when they are given a "license to kill".

    For street level characters like Batman and Daredevil, the writers need to address the imbalance between himself and his villains and the how the entire universe works. When the no-kill code was in full effect, most supervillains were a lot less violent than they are today and it made sense that Batman would simply punch out the Joker when he committed some crimes. But now, we have a Joker that's a mass murderer and Batman simply beats him up throws him Arkham and he escapes again to kill even more. This is pretty much the same with every Batman villain. This doesn't make sense anymore. This simply means that Batman is literally failing in his war against the villains and at certain point he'll have to simply re-think being Batman at all. He might want to consider an approach that involve him wearing a mask at all, maybe he should use his money to build a super hi-tech prison in the Phantom Zone or Mars or something to permanently get these guys off the board.
    I agree on the no-kill rule. And Idk if any of this pertains to Spider-verse

    But hasn't violent crime decreased? Other than incel-type shooters, but are Batman & Spider-Man going after those guys? A lot of anti-crime legislation is motivated by race, class, gender and other demographics, and fear of crime has been used as political propaganda to justify things like police brutality and lengthy prison sentences. Batman does go after guys like Joker or Penguin, who don't fit into that profile, but are their own thing so IMO it doesn't really connect to this kind of debate. But acting like bank robbers and such are filling the streets and need vigilantes who skirt the law to deliver swift justice seems more like something out of copaganda, at least to me. Those kinds of criminals should be dealt with, but should reflect

    Tbf, some crimes are underreported and prosecuted, like sex crimes or crimes against minority groups, IIRC. Take, for instance, the missing and murdered Native American & Canadian women. There's a crime epidemic not taken seriously by police. Or how rampant sexual harassment has been for centuries yet not taken seriously enough. But that's not the kind of crimes I generally see street-level guys take, at least from what I've read. So I think superheroes seeking justice when police don't is still possibly valid, but now how it's been shown for decades.

    Plus, it would be interesting to see guys like Batman or Spider-Man go after police, politicians, etc. who mistreat citizens like this.

  4. #8734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Criticism isn't necessarily bad, though, is it?
    If one understands what they are talking about-it's not bad.

    What we are hearing more of is NOBODY looking beyond the cover and throwing temper tantrums.

    Or so QUICK to comment for points that they don't wait for the facts like we saw with Johnny Depp and even Chris Brown.



    Why do you think people oppose voting rights?
    Because one party has full control of a certain demographic in some communities. A Republican stands ZERO CHANCE of winning in Dallas. 4 Republicans have been Mayor-everyone else Democrat or no party. Most seats for the Senate or House have not seen a Republican in office.

    What the oppressions does is hurt all parties because it is making it harder for everyone no matter the party to vote. What those folks do not understand is where are those votes coming from?

    The number of Election Day polling places in largely Democratic parts of major Texas counties would fall dramatically under a Republican proposal to change how Texas polling sites are distributed, a Texas Tribune analysis shows. Voting options would be curtailed most in areas with higher shares of voters of color.

    In Harris County home to Houston, the state's biggest city the formula would mean fewer polling places in 13 of the 24 districts contained in the county, all currently represented by Democrats. Every district held by a Republican would either see a gain in polling places or see no change.
    District 132 (Republican) saw 18 new polling places and has a white population of 45%. 4 Republican areas got 10+.
    District 141 (Democrat) LOSES 11 and has 10% white population. 2 Democrat gain a combine 13.
    Democrats get 13 new polling places. Republican get 42.

    Trump got 8 % of black votes-what if the majority of those were in black areas? Those are now vote Republicans just lost-while that might not hurt a Trump-what does that mean for other offices?

  5. #8735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Plus, it would be interesting to see guys like Batman or Spider-Man go after police, politicians, etc. who mistreat citizens like this.
    Both have to certain points.

    Of course the Gators and friends won't remember those stories.

  6. #8736
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    Yeah, but "both-sides-ing" everything doesn't work either. Sometimes groups opposing things are motivated by political opinions. It's not that every member of political groups agrees on everything. Or that politics should be partisan. But we can't pretend like every group acts with good faith. Or that a "reasonable compromise" always works. And for groups, especially minority ones, whose voices have been ignored or actively suppressed for so long, "meet in the middle" doesn't really work. Just look at the residential schools in Canada. I've spent time in Canada too, and I don't see a "Both sides" to this. Just like attacks on voter restrictions aren't coming from different sides of a debate. It's clearly one side. Or take climate change as an other example. It doesn't mean we should attack or abuse one another. I dislike all that, too, especially with how dramatized and tabloid-like some news has become. But I also dislike false middles and ineffective centrism.
    You're not wrong.

    My point is, as POC what we are sick of is the lack of intersectionalism in the debates. It's like, we are expected to support certain "causes" just because we are POC. But it doesn't work like that. Someone like Margaret Sanger is still held up as something of a feminist icon despite the fact that she supported eugenics. Even after the George Floyd protests, most surveys showed that an overwhelming majority of African-Americans didn't support defunding the police or even pulling them off the streets. In fact, they even wanted a greater police prescence.

    https://www.newsweek.com/81-black-am...s-poll-1523093

    This despite several liberal outlets screaming about "defunding the police".

    These issues are complicated and when people take extreme views on some of these topics, it alienates the people they actually want to help.

    I'm politically quite liberal but it's important that folks under nuance in these discussions.

    I agree on the no-kill rule. And Idk if any of this pertains to Spider-verse
    It doesn't at all. Spider-verse was referred to as copaganda because Miles father is a cop in that. Miles didn't even work with the police in the movie. Miles having a cop father isn't an unusual thing, there are a lot of black Americans on the force, heck, my older brother retired as a cop from the NYPD. When people use that as a criticism of the movie, it then dives into other issues...seriously, have the people that made that criticism actually thought about why so many minorities join the armed forces? Hint: it's not because they love their country.

    But hasn't violent crime decreased? Other than incel-type shooters, but are Batman & Spider-Man going after those guys? A lot of anti-crime legislation is motivated by race, class, gender and other demographics, and fear of crime has been used as political propaganda to justify things like police brutality and lengthy prison sentences. Batman does go after guys like Joker or Penguin, who don't fit into that profile, but are their own thing so IMO it doesn't really connect to this kind of debate. But acting like bank robbers and such are filling the streets and need vigilantes who skirt the law to deliver swift justice seems more like something out of copaganda, at least to me. Those kinds of criminals should be dealt with, but should reflect

    Tbf, some crimes are underreported and prosecuted, like sex crimes or crimes against minority groups, IIRC. Take, for instance, the missing and murdered Native American & Canadian women. There's a crime epidemic not taken seriously by police. Or how rampant sexual harassment has been for centuries yet not taken seriously enough. But that's not the kind of crimes I generally see street-level guys take, at least from what I've read. So I think superheroes seeking justice when police don't is still possibly valid, but now how it's been shown for decades.


    Plus, it would be interesting to see guys like Batman or Spider-Man go after police, politicians, etc. who mistreat citizens like this.
    Penguin and the Joker ARE the bigtime criminals in Gotham City. They are crime bosses that (sometimes) have long political and social reach in Gotham. That was part of what Batman: Year One dealt with. Same with guys like Wilson Fisk who last time I checked was the Mayor of New York (or something). There are stories of superheroes going up against them when no one else could (Batman in particular has had several stories about him dealing with corrupt police).

    My point about vigilantism is "how far is too far", at what point does it end.
    Last edited by Username taken; 07-31-2021 at 02:20 PM.

  7. #8737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    You're not wrong.

    My point is, as POC what we are sick of is the lack of intersectionalism in the debates. It's like, we are expected to support certain "causes" just because we are POC. But it doesn't work like that. Someone like Margaret Sanger is still held up as something of a feminist icon despite the fact that she supported eugenics. Even after the George Floyd protests, most surveys showed that an overwhelming majority of African-Americans didn't support defunding the police or even pulling them off the streets. In fact, they even wanted a greater police prescence.

    https://www.newsweek.com/81-black-am...s-poll-1523093

    This despite several liberal outlets screaming about "defunding the police".

    These issues are complicated and when people take extreme views on some of these topics, it alienates the people they actually want to help.

    I'm politically quite liberal but it's important that folks under nuance in these discussions.
    Not that I disagree with you, but isn't the whole "nuance" thing part of ignoring intersectionality. "Defund the police," for instance, isn't necessarily an extreme statement. Much of it, from what I hear, is about devoting more resources to upstream solutions to prevent crime happening in the first place. It does have some merit, but those opposed to it paint it as extremist. I think ideas like that do stem from intersectionality. Because in a lot of ways, policing is founding on keeping hierarchies intact. I do think more effective policing is needed, and in a lot of ways, marginalized groups, like African-Americans, aren't protected enough. But just having police doesn't necessarily make people safer. That's the nuance that's missing. But saying "meet in the middle" when one side isn't exactly extremist doesn't help anyone who needs it. These issues are complicated, but that's what movements like "Defund the police" are trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It doesn't at all. Spider-verse was referred to as copaganda because Miles father is a cop in that. Miles didn't even work with the police in the movie. Miles having a cop father isn't an unusual thing, there are a lot of black Americans on the force, heck, my older brother retired as a cop from the NYPD. When people use that as a criticism of the movie, it then dives into other issues...seriously, have the people that made that criticism actually thought about why so many minorities join the armed forces? Hint: it's not because they love their country.
    Why do they join the police force or armed forces? I'm genuinely curious. Because those institutions, while necessary, are also problematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Penguin and the Joker ARE the bigtime criminals in Gotham City. They are crime bosses that (sometimes) have long political and social reach in Gotham. That was part of what Batman: Year One dealt with. Same with guys like Wilson Fisk who last time I checked was the Mayor of New York (or something). There are stories of superheroes going up against them when no one else could (Batman in particular has had several stories about him dealing with corrupt police).

    My point about vigilantism is "how far is too far", at what point does it end.
    Not sure what you mean by your last sentence, but my point was more about confronting police when they're mistreating citizens, or governments using practices like legislation to target minority groups. Corruption is a problem, but a lot of the problems here are either legally condoned, or not technically corruption.

  8. #8738
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    Not that I disagree with you, but isn't the whole "nuance" thing part of ignoring intersectionality. "Defund the police," for instance, isn't necessarily an extreme statement. Much of it, from what I hear, is about devoting more resources to upstream solutions to prevent crime happening in the first place. It does have some merit, but those opposed to it paint it as extremist. I think ideas like that do stem from intersectionality. Because in a lot of ways, policing is founding on keeping hierarchies intact. I do think more effective policing is needed, and in a lot of ways, marginalized groups, like African-Americans, aren't protected enough. But just having police doesn't necessarily make people safer. That's the nuance that's missing. But saying "meet in the middle" when one side isn't exactly extremist doesn't help anyone who needs it. These issues are complicated, but that's what movements like "Defund the police" are trying to say.
    The police force can be reformed AND more resources devoted to other solutions. It shouldn't be one or the other.

    That's what a lot of people in the community are saying. It's why I always talk about the "zero-sum" game, not all issues should be treated as a zero-sum game.

    Ultimately, the affected communities should be allowed to speak their own views about issues that affect them directly. And the solutions shouldn't be taking one thing from another which will inadvertently create more problems.

    Why do they join the police force or armed forces? I'm genuinely curious. Because those institutions, while necessary, are also problematic.
    A lot of minorities (particularly those of minority descent) get lured into the armed forces because of the lack of opportunities in other areas. That's not to say you don't have a lot of minorities that don't love wearing the badge but for a lot of them, joining the armed forces isn't their first choice in life.

  9. #8739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The police force can be reformed AND more resources devoted to other solutions. It shouldn't be one or the other.

    That's what a lot of people in the community are saying. It's why I always talk about the "zero-sum" game, not all issues should be treated as a zero-sum game.

    Ultimately, the affected communities should be allowed to speak their own views about issues that affect them directly. And the solutions shouldn't be taking one thing from another which will inadvertently create more problems.
    I've heard some police departments, at least in the usa, have become militarized, and are using more military grade equipment in civilian crime. Some of that is probably expansive, so I think that's where some of the funding has been criticised

    I agree it's not zero sum, but just using police isn't appropriate in all situations. I've heard suggestions for some local policing to be replaced by less forceful forms of community defense. So I think it's not quite as simple as simply not giving underprotected groups protection. I think it's about what kind of protection they get. Because overpolicing is also a problem, too. And it also goes back to what kinds of crimes are prosecuted, whether by certain things being outlawed, or police picking and choosing what crimes should be dealt with. I fully agree marginalized groups need better protection, but what that entails needs to be reviewed and reformed.

    I do agree minority voices need to be heard when it comes to self governance. I also think they should be given all the information about how things can be improved. Because policing and militarism as a whole have an anti-minority history

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    A lot of minorities (particularly those of minority descent) get lured into the armed forces because of the lack of opportunities in other areas. That's not to say you don't have a lot of minorities that don't love wearing the badge but for a lot of them, joining the armed forces isn't their first choice in life.
    That's why more upstream solutions are needed to provide alternatives. I think these organizations take advantage of economic weakness

  10. #8740
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    If one understands what they are talking about-it's not bad.

    What we are hearing more of is NOBODY looking beyond the cover and throwing temper tantrums.

    Or so QUICK to comment for points that they don't wait for the facts like we saw with Johnny Depp and even Chris Brown.
    What are you talking about?

  11. #8741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Not that I disagree with you, but isn't the whole "nuance" thing part of ignoring intersectionality. "Defund the police," for instance, isn't necessarily an extreme statement. Much of it, from what I hear, is about devoting more resources to upstream solutions to prevent crime happening in the first place. .
    Well, the problem - assuming you believe it to be a problem - is we also have people calling to abolish the police and claiming it is the same thing as defunding them which leads to a bit of confusion.

    To be clear, I'm not saying people criticizing the police as a whole are wrong but it is important to be clear on what is wanted.

    Something that has also annoyed me about the "copaganda" claims is that these same people will turn around and excuse or ignore anything done by characters that aren't cops but would be ripped apart by them if they were. Batman and many other superheroes regularly engages in torture, privacy violation, child endangerment and evidence tampering but so long as they don't kill people they're hailed as heroes. I saw no less than four articles defending Wanda's actions in WandaVision before the show was over. Yet the first episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier had people yelling about "military propaganda" because Sam was shown killing mercenaries, something far from unusual for MCU heroes. These people are like kids who just heard a new word they like and decided to throw it around to sound smart.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-31-2021 at 11:27 PM.

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    The above video looks at the history of Canada's residential schools. It discusses heavy topics such as racism and sexual abuse, so be warned.

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    Why do they join the police force or armed forces? I'm genuinely curious. Because those institutions, while necessary, are also problematic.
    Standards go up and down, but in general... someone from any background can join the military, get paid a living wage with benefits. It can change your life. You can start the fix with family poverty.

    Hell, if you do it right... you can retire after 20 years WITH benefits. You can be 40 and basically retired.

    Being a cop is an easy job to get really, realy good job stability, good benefits. There are worse things.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well, the problem - assuming you believe it to be a problem - is we also have people calling to abolish the police and claiming it is the same thing as defunding them which leads to a bit of confusion.

    To be clear, I'm not saying people criticizing the police as a whole are wrong but it is important to be clear on what is wanted.

    Something that has also annoyed me about the "copaganda" claims is that these same people will turn around and excuse or ignore anything done by characters that aren't cops but would be ripped apart by them if they were. Batman and many other superheroes regularly engages in torture, privacy violation, child endangerment and evidence tampering but so long as they don't kill people they're hailed as heroes. I saw no less than four articles defending Wanda's actions in WandaVision before the show was over. Yet the first episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier had people yelling about "military propaganda" because Sam was shown killing mercenaries, something far from unusual for MCU heroes. These people are like kids who just heard a new word they like and decided to throw it around to sound smart.
    Abolish police as a whole does seem extreme to me. Idk how many people are actually calling for that, but I think distinguishing between the two is part of being nuanced.

    The MCU has been called military propaganda for years now. And I don't think it's an unfounded criticism. Especially since Sam and Bucky were on the same side in Civil War that supposedly didn't want to be used as a strike force. The MCU tends to show problems in the military and government as individual bad apples or evil infiltrators, like HYDRA, instead of inherent, centuries-old systemic problems, except somewhat in FaWS. So I think it's valid to criticize them. Especially since the show itself was trying to do so.

    And I've seen plenty of criticism of Wanda in WandaVision. As for non-cop heroes committing questionable acts, that should be looked at too, and not ignored. But that doesn't mean criticisms against government-based heroes are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post


    The above video looks at the history of Canada's residential schools. It discusses heavy topics such as racism and sexual abuse, so be warned.
    It's a very disturbing part of Canadian history.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Standards go up and down, but in general... someone from any background can join the military, get paid a living wage with benefits. It can change your life. You can start the fix with family poverty.

    Hell, if you do it right... you can retire after 20 years WITH benefits. You can be 40 and basically retired.

    Being a cop is an easy job to get really, realy good job stability, good benefits. There are worse things.
    I see. Those benefits do sound good. But it would be nice if one could get similar opportunities in other fields.
    Last edited by Mik; 08-01-2021 at 06:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well, the problem - assuming you believe it to be a problem - is we also have people calling to abolish the police and claiming it is the same thing as defunding them which leads to a bit of confusion.

    To be clear, I'm not saying people criticizing the police as a whole are wrong but it is important to be clear on what is wanted.

    Something that has also annoyed me about the "copaganda" claims is that these same people will turn around and excuse or ignore anything done by characters that aren't cops but would be ripped apart by them if they were. Batman and many other superheroes regularly engages in torture, privacy violation, child endangerment and evidence tampering but so long as they don't kill people they're hailed as heroes. I saw no less than four articles defending Wanda's actions in WandaVision before the show was over. Yet the first episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier had people yelling about "military propaganda" because Sam was shown killing mercenaries, something far from unusual for MCU heroes. These people are like kids who just heard a new word they like and decided to throw it around to sound smart.
    Quoted for truth.

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