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  1. #8746
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    I thought that the North American Bison was wiped out because of commercial purposes.

    It was actually part of the tactics to drive the natives off their land as part of “manifest destiny”.

  2. #8747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The MCU has been called military propaganda for years now. And I don't think it's an unfounded criticism. Especially since Sam and Bucky were on the same side in Civil War that supposedly didn't want to be used as a strike force.
    Bucky had no opinion on the Accords one way or the other and was only opposed to Tony's faction because they wanted to either kill him or lock him up. And Sam was already part of a strike force, just one that didn't answer to any country or institution.

    And I've seen plenty of criticism of Wanda in WandaVision.
    Compared to what Sam and Walker and Falcon and Winter Soldier got, the criticism of Wanda is very insignificant and often dismissed as coming from a place of sexism (ironically, the way the MCU writers tend to infantilize her and treat her actions with kid gloves just because she's a woman is pretty sexist).

    I'm not saying the criticism of Falcon and Winter Soldier isn't warranted but that show got way more heat than WandaVision did despite the main protagonist having committed far more reprehensible acts than Sam or even Walker throughout her appearances in the MCU. The show's unfortunate implications were just as bad if not worse.

    As for non-cop heroes committing questionable acts, that should be looked at too, and not ignored. But that doesn't mean criticisms against government-based heroes are wrong
    If the criticism is warranted, you're right, it isn't wrong. The problem is when progressive fans and writers view government-sanctioned superheroes with contempt and give a pass to vigilantes which they do all too often. Marvel is especially bad at this with the idea of the government always being out to get you and vigilantism is always the best answer being a recurring theme throughout the company's history. Ironically, this is the same premise alt-right groups follow.

  3. #8748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post


    I thought that the North American Bison was wiped out because of commercial purposes.

    It was actually part of the tactics to drive the natives off their land as part of “manifest destiny”.
    Exactly. It speaks to the hypocrisy of American history

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Bucky had no opinion on the Accords one way or the other and was only opposed to Tony's faction because they wanted to either kill him or lock him up. And Sam was already part of a strike force, just one that didn't answer to any country or institution.
    Yeah, but the point is Steve said he didn't want the Avengers to be used as pawns for politicians, but in some ways, that's what Bucky and Sam became in FaWS, at least until the end when Sam gave his speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Compared to what Sam and Walker and Falcon and Winter Soldier got, the criticism of Wanda is very insignificant and often dismissed as coming from a place of sexism (ironically, the way the MCU writers tend to infantilize her and treat her actions with kid gloves just because she's a woman is pretty sexist).
    Really? Wanda gets special treatment because of sexism? Would say the same about Clint? The MCU does this with all it's heroes. I don't excuse Wanda's actions, but I really doubt she's protected by benevolent sexism

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm not saying the criticism of Falcon and Winter Soldier isn't warranted but that show got way more heat than WandaVision did despite the main protagonist having committed far more reprehensible acts than Sam or even Walker throughout her appearances in the MCU. The show's unfortunate implications were just as bad if not worse.
    I recall WandaVision getting plenty of criticism. And the criticisms aren't really the same so it's hard for me to compare. FaWS was directly criticizing institutional racism and government brutality, so it's fair to call out the MCU for having it's cake and eating it too. WandaVision criticisms are valid but too different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If the criticism is warranted, you're right, it isn't wrong. The problem is when progressive fans and writers view government-sanctioned superheroes with contempt and give a pass to vigilantes which they do all too often. Marvel is especially bad at this with the idea of the government always being out to get you and vigilantism is always the best answer being a recurring theme throughout the company's history. Ironically, this is the same premise alt-right groups follow.
    I've criticized that myself a lot, and it's one of the reasons I wasn't on CA's side in Civil War, and why I think street level crime fighters need to be reformed. The whole "all government is evil" comes off as libertarian propaganda to me. You're right when you say both need to be criticized, and if vigilante heroes aren't, that's wrong.

  4. #8749
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    I think people look too much into comic book movies meant to entertain you for a few hours....

    Like... Falcon wasn't working for the military to spread military propaganda... he was working for the military in the movie so you could get a cool fight scene where he fights helicoptors and paratroopers and shit lol. and it is easier to explain it by having the military point him in the direction to blow shit up vs Falcon magically figured it out himself.

    hell... MCU falcon has always been a follower. Whether it was the military or Steve. It was nice to see him break away and start doing his own stuff with his own agency finally.

    that's what Bucky and Sam became in FaWS, at least until the end when Sam gave his speech
    Bucky was explicitly doing his own thing for his own reasons (making amends or whatever) in the beginning of FaWS. He wasn't working for the govt.

    Falcon was basically a contractor for the military... meaning he got to decide whether to help or not (and get paid lol).

    And both of them immediately broke off and did their own thing and even told John Walker that was their advantage that they didn't have anyone telling them what to do, unlike him.
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  5. #8750
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I think people look too much into comic book movies meant to entertain you for a few hours....

    Like... Falcon wasn't working for the military to spread military propaganda... he was working for the military in the movie so you could get a cool fight scene where he fights helicoptors and paratroopers and shit lol. and it is easier to explain it by having the military point him in the direction to blow shit up vs Falcon magically figured it out himself.

    hell... MCU falcon has always been a follower. Whether it was the military or Steve. It was nice to see him break away and start doing his own stuff with his own agency finally.



    Bucky was explicitly doing his own thing for his own reasons (making amends or whatever) in the beginning of FaWS. He wasn't working for the govt.

    Falcon was basically a contractor for the military... meaning he got to decide whether to help or not (and get paid lol).

    And both of them immediately broke off and did their own thing and even told John Walker that was their advantage that they didn't have anyone telling them what to do, unlike him.
    I blame YouTube for this, specifically commentary/video analysis YouTube. People who try way too hard to find things that aren't there. This culture where people think watching movies and cartoons is activism, they helped foster it, and look what it's wrought. People are beating themselves up for not liking certain things because they think it makes them bad people.

  6. #8751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I blame YouTube for this, specifically commentary/video analysis YouTube. People who try way too hard to find things that aren't there. This culture where people think watching movies and cartoons is activism, they helped foster it, and look what it's wrought. People are beating themselves up for not liking certain things because they think it makes them bad people.
    We need a thumbs up button.

  7. #8752
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I think people look too much into comic book movies meant to entertain you for a few hours....

    Like... Falcon wasn't working for the military to spread military propaganda... he was working for the military in the movie so you could get a cool fight scene where he fights helicoptors and paratroopers and shit lol. and it is easier to explain it by having the military point him in the direction to blow shit up vs Falcon magically figured it out himself.
    While that's true, the criticism here is that the MCU doesn't take a critical enough look at the military.

    And isn't a common criticism towards these movies that they're not deep enough? Aren't we supposed to want more?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    hell... MCU falcon has always been a follower. Whether it was the military or Steve. It was nice to see him break away and start doing his own stuff with his own agency finally.
    That was Sam's problem in the MCU. He basically just sucked up to Steve until FaWS.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Bucky was explicitly doing his own thing for his own reasons (making amends or whatever) in the beginning of FaWS. He wasn't working for the govt.

    Falcon was basically a contractor for the military... meaning he got to decide whether to help or not (and get paid lol).

    And both of them immediately broke off and did their own thing and even told John Walker that was their advantage that they didn't have anyone telling them what to do, unlike him.
    I guess when you put it like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I blame YouTube for this, specifically commentary/video analysis YouTube. People who try way too hard to find things that aren't there. This culture where people think watching movies and cartoons is activism, they helped foster it, and look what it's wrought. People are beating themselves up for not liking certain things because they think it makes them bad people.
    I don't really think it's wrong to take a critical eye to things. A lot of problematic images are ingrained in pop culture, so we don't notice them until we take a step back and look. People can and do go overboard with it.

  8. #8753
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    The US is in a strange place and "performative politics" is a thing. And can be very problematic.

    Case in point, the whole anti-vax thing. Fox News and other conservative outlets are doing everything they can to not get people vaccinated....whereas they themselves (i.e Fox News) has a vaccination mandate.

    What exactly is going on?? What exactly is the gain here?? A youtuber (i believe he was European) said he was offered money to promote anti-vaxx stuff and he refused and was legit confused at why folks are promoting something that's going to be very damaging.

    It's very strange to me. Covid-19 cases are spiking among the non-vaccinated but some people are doing everything they can to dissuade them from taking said vaccines. Now, you have state governors (Texas) banning mask mandates and Florida might soon follow suit. I'm not seeing the point in all this at all.

  9. #8754
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    While that's true, the criticism here is that the MCU doesn't take a critical enough look at the military.

    And isn't a common criticism towards these movies that they're not deep enough? Aren't we supposed to want more?
    Why?

    why does it have to be more?

    Why can't an action comedy movie be good at... action/comedy?

    Why does it have to say something? Why does the MCU have to be critical towards the military?

    Seriously... why? Why is it the job of an entertainment franchise to "say something" ?

    Why do we expect social politics from DISNEY?

    People spend more time dissecting movies with sorcerers and dudes flying around dressed as a flag than they do real shit. And that is the problem.
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  10. #8755
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    While that's true, the criticism here is that the MCU doesn't take a critical enough look at the military.
    Why?

    Marvel superheroes aren't soldiers and aren't presented as such (Stark said this literally in the first Avengers).


    I don't really think it's wrong to take a critical eye to things. A lot of problematic images are ingrained in pop culture, so we don't notice them until we take a step back and look. People can and do go overboard with it.
    It's the overboard part that's been the crux of the discussion all along.

  11. #8756
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Why?

    why does it have to be more?

    Why can't an action comedy movie be good at... action/comedy?

    Why does it have to say something? Why does the MCU have to be critical towards the military?

    Seriously... why? Why is it the job of an entertainment franchise to "say something" ?

    Why do we expect social politics from DISNEY?

    People spend more time dissecting movies with sorcerers and dudes flying around dressed as a flag than they do real shit. And that is the problem.
    We typed our comments so close together that we literally asked the same question.

    For me, it's not for Marvel/Disney or any other big companies role to teach us about anything. So far they are NOT promoting problematic or hateful stuff, then it's all good.

    If they decide to do so, then that's fine and it's very welcome. Black Panther touched on a number of social issues and it added to the movie. They have a platform that CAN be used for good but I don't really expect them to do that all the time.

    But a movie can just be an action-comedy like Ant-man and still be fine.

  12. #8757
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I think people look too much into comic book movies meant to entertain you for a few hours....
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I blame YouTube for this, specifically commentary/video analysis YouTube. People who try way too hard to find things that aren't there. This culture where people think watching movies and cartoons is activism, they helped foster it, and look what it's wrought. People are beating themselves up for not liking certain things because they think it makes them bad people.
    I agree but I'm also glad that there are commentary/video analysis on YouTube critiquing the mcu or any other big franchise.

  13. #8758
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Why?

    why does it have to be more?

    Why can't an action comedy movie be good at... action/comedy?

    Why does it have to say something? Why does the MCU have to be critical towards the military?

    Seriously... why? Why is it the job of an entertainment franchise to "say something" ?

    Why do we expect social politics from DISNEY?

    People spend more time dissecting movies with sorcerers and dudes flying around dressed as a flag than they do real shit. And that is the problem.
    Part of it comes from the fact that people these days revolve their lives around what they consume, and they want what they consume to reflect their values. "If I watch product x instead of y, that makes me a good person." which is why people tried so hard (and succeeded) to get Gina Carano fired from the Mandalorian instead of just letting her have her dumb opinion.

    Like for instance, I'm a Rush fan, (the band, not limbaugh, though some would say that's worse). The song and album that saved their careers, 2112, was influenced by and dedicated to Ayn Rand. Neil Peart was really into Ayn Rand, he was in his 20's at the time. People grow up. Do I like Rand, no, does that make me enjoy Rush less, no, that's crazy. Im listening to Clockwork Angels right now.

  14. #8759
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Why?

    why does it have to be more?

    Why can't an action comedy movie be good at... action/comedy?

    Why does it have to say something? Why does the MCU have to be critical towards the military?

    Seriously... why? Why is it the job of an entertainment franchise to "say something" ?

    Why do we expect social politics from DISNEY?

    People spend more time dissecting movies with sorcerers and dudes flying around dressed as a flag than they do real shit. And that is the problem.
    I'm not saying it has to be, but it's not a problem to look at these movies more critically. And how do you know people aren't doing anything real? I'm not sure what you're complaining about now

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    Part of it comes from the fact that people these days revolve their lives around what they consume, and they want what they consume to reflect their values. "If I watch product x instead of y, that makes me a good person." which is why people tried so hard (and succeeded) to get Gina Carano fired from the Mandalorian instead of just letting her have her dumb opinion.

    Like for instance, I'm a Rush fan, (the band, not limbaugh, though some would say that's worse). The song and album that saved their careers, 2112, was influenced by and dedicated to Ayn Rand. Neil Peart was really into Ayn Rand, he was in his 20's at the time. People grow up. Do I like Rand, no, does that make me enjoy Rush less, no, that's crazy. Im listening to Clockwork Angels right now.
    In Carano's case, she promoted multiple problematic beliefs, and didn't stop. Honestly, I think she deserved to get fired. So I don't think that really applies.

  15. #8760
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm not saying it has to be, but it's not a problem to look at these movies more critically.
    It is a problem if people invent stuff like "mcu doesn't look at military critically enough" and then critically dissect an argument that was never made by the movie.
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