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  1. #7951
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Admittedly, once episode 2 was over and I realized that Walker’s black best friend was joining him alongside an all new original wife, I immediately started thinking they might fridge someone to trigger his ballistic side, especially since I knew enough to clock his parents weren’t being established - they were the victims in the comics who triggered his rampage.

    Lemar’s surviving and being involved with the story after Walker’ rampage could have changed a lot of stuff in presentation - and potentially for the better since they jerked away from the more antagonistic portrayal they had for him in episode 5 (a big part of the reason his more straightforward heroism is 6 feels weird is because of how hard they were leaning into craziness in 5).

    An injured Lemar who could peacefully confront Walker in 6 could have made his “come down” period work better.
    Walker's change was abrupt. Lemar confronting him about his brutality might've made that less so

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    If Lemar isn't dead, Walker isn't going to run away frmo him to go execute someone. He woudln't leave a wounded soldier sittin' their paralyzed lol
    True, although the serum was messing with his thinking process

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  3. #7953
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I thought it did great but I seem to be in the minority here.

    I want minorities in ALL roles and that includes the ability to kill them off if need be. I ain't losing a wink of sleep over Battlestar.



    Yeha ol mixed? girl bit the dust but so did her whole crew lol. Ain't like they singled her out.

    And something had to turn Walker... he needed to go bad but he couldn't go too bad because the character is really really grey... so he needed a somewhat justified reason if you squint to decapitate a terrorist who surrendered and Lemar was the only logical choice. I don't know shit about battlestar in the comics, so whatever. I guess they should have just casted a white sidekick instead and killed him to avoid the trope I guess? IS it worth losing a minority role to avoid tropes?
    Yeah, I barely remember Battlestar from the comics, so it's not like I'm really broken up about him, in particular. And nah, not that they should have given Walker a white sidekick, but more that he didn't really need one, in the first place.

    You know, especially considering that the very next episode after his "going dark" has him redeem himself and become US Agent? You didn't really need a whole thing about him turning, so much as just failing as Captain America, so Sam could pick up the shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    I don't know.

    In a show where the main character (or one of them) is Black, his family and community are given representation, screen time and the like, the main villainess is biracial and we got a guest spot for Isaiah Bradley and a series cameo for Eli Bradley both of whose characters are bigger deals in the comics than Battlestar is, I am not going to get fussed over the death of one character whose survival would have made little in story sense to me, POC or not.

    He was a non powered dude with a Pistol and a Knife fighting super soldiers in a MCU where that power disparity matters in story (unlike in the comics where it gets handwaved away because plot armor). Of course he got killed.

    In the comics Walker parents getting murdered drives him nuts. His parents aren't in this. Do you want his Wife/Girlfriend to get it instead? That actress is a POC also so killing her off would not fix anything either.

    I don't see what saving him gets the story or the character who is mostly there to be the voice of reason to a character whose entire point is to go off the rails.
    Lol SAM is a non-powered dude, often (in the movies) with a gun! Fine, count the wings, and now the shield ... but you still have Hawkeye with a ridiculous medieval weapon somehow living through countless battles with super-powered things, and Black Widow, usually with -- what, metal sticks? Point is, there's plenty of plot armor to go around, in the MCU.

    And no, I wouldn't want to have seen his wife killed instead, either. The whole point in the criticism about fridging people is that it's cheap and exploitative to kill people from demographics deemed as less important in society, to prop up or further the stories of a white male character. If you can't make Walker interesting without doing that, then he's just not an interesting character -- or, you're just a shitty writer.

    Really, when you consider how the final episode played out? You didn't need Battlestar in this at all (especially not just to have him killed off in a cringey, cliche manner). It would have been a tighter story, and made his being on team Sam and Bucky in the finale seem less jarring, if they'd just not been as completely dismissive of him, from the start.

    He joins them at the fight with the Flag Smashers on top of the trucks. The exposition about his past and his PTSD, doubts, etc is with Sam and Bucky instead of with Lemar, establishing relationships with them that would make the battle when they take the shield more dramatic, and likewise make it more believable when they allow him to rejoin them in the finale battle, since he would have been a teammate through most of the show already, at that point. The audience still gets to know him and sympathize with him, through his conversations with Sam/Bucky, and you don't introduce an extraneous black character just to kill him off in a problematic tropey fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Admittedly, once episode 2 was over and I realized that Walker’s black best friend was joining him alongside an all new original wife, I immediately started thinking they might fridge someone to trigger his ballistic side, especially since I knew enough to clock his parents weren’t being established - they were the victims in the comics who triggered his rampage.

    Lemar’s surviving and being involved with the story after Walker’ rampage could have changed a lot of stuff in presentation - and potentially for the better since they jerked away from the more antagonistic portrayal they had for him in episode 5 (a big part of the reason his more straightforward heroism is 6 feels weird is because of how hard they were leaning into craziness in 5).

    An injured Lemar who could peacefully confront Walker in 6 could have made his “come down” period work better.
    Sure, if you just really wanted to have Battlestar appear, then yeah, I'd say having him survive so he can be the one to bring Walker back to the good side in episode six would be better. But being included as nothing but a helpful non-entity for Walker kind of plays into the magical negro trope itself, so ... I guess, again, wondering if it would have been better to just leave the character out, if you didn't have plans to use him in any later capacity, and possibly raise the character's profile in comics.

    If you did just leave Hoskins out, and let Walker team with Sam and Bucky from the start, you could really just lead into his breakdown by showing his PTSD along with having him continually coming in last/needing to be helped or saved by Bucky or Sam in battle after battle, throughout the show. This wouldn't really be hard to buy, given you've shown the two main characters to be seasoned veterans of many super-powered battles throughout the MCU, while even though Walker may be a veteran of regular combat, he is absolutely a rookie in this arena.

    You have him unraveling because he is absolutely failing to live up to being Captain America, meanwhile what he views as two past sidekicks of the original Cap are regularly out-performing him. He's likewise getting pressure from his superiors to resolve the whole Flag Smashers thing, while on the ground of it all, he is aware that he's completely just tagging along behind Sam and Bucky, with nothing much to contribute at all -- not only not helping, but even getting in the way or seeming to mess things up, instead.

    The incident where he kills someone didn't have to be because someone personally important to him was killed -- again, that's a tired trope. It could instead have been a gray area where he maybe sincerely thought someone was about to be killed, and used lethal force to stop it. You can then have Sam and Bucky arguing that the situation was under control, there was no need for what he did -- the audience can have their take on it, as the story does not need to make it completely clear if they did have it under control or not. Like, maybe someone was already killed and more could have been if he didn't do what he did, but on the other hand, maybe he should have trusted the more experienced guys to handle the matter and not have been so desperate to prove himself, regardless of how he's been getting his ass kicked through the whole show.

    I mean, maybe a newly-made super soldier killing someone out of frustration, insecurity, and a situation where the right action was just not clear would have made him less a character that some would have related to so much ... I don't know though, I did read the original run with John Walker way back when it was originally done, and I don't think this would have been far off, from his initial characterization.
    Last edited by Adam Allen; 04-29-2021 at 04:27 PM.
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  4. #7954
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    If Lemar isn't dead, Walker isn't going to run away frmo him to go execute someone. He woudln't leave a wounded soldier sittin' their paralyzed lol
    True enough. But you could work your way around that if you wanted to. Lemar gets brutally injured and gets to a hospital, but is in critical condition, maybe going to die or in danger of being paralyzed, and Walker leaves when he knows he's safe only to get angrier and angrier during a fight and then kill Nico in broad daylight at full froth. Or maybe an already injured Lemar is being attacked by a super soldier, and John tackles the guy out the window, and does the lethal beat down so quickly that there’s no break or pause.

    Or you don’t even have to kill Lemar. Have his parents be introduced at the GMA show, have him call them a few times, then have Karli threaten them like she did Sam’s sister, and have someone blow their house up... and maybe you get clever and have it ambiguous as to who blew the house up until the end, where if you want Sharon to be Ms. Evil, she did it so that Walker would turn the pressure up on the Flag Smashers.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 04-29-2021 at 04:15 PM.
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  5. #7955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Yeah, I barely remember Battlestar from the comics, so it's not like I'm really broken up about him, in particular. And nah, not that they should have given Walker a white sidekick, but more that he didn't really need one, in the first place.

    You know, especially considering that the very next episode after his "going dark" has him redeem himself and become US Agent? You didn't really need a whole thing about him turning, so much as just failing as Captain America, so Sam could pick up the shield.



    Lol SAM is a non-powered dude, often (in the movies) with a gun! Fine, count the wings, and now the shield ... but you still have Hawkeye with a ridiculous medieval weapon somehow living through countless battles with super-powered things, and Black Widow, usually with -- what, metal sticks? Point is, there's plenty of plot armor to go around, in the MCU.

    And no, I wouldn't want to have seen his wife killed instead, either. The whole point in the criticism about fridging people is that it's cheap and exploitative to kill people from demographics deemed as less important in society, to prop up or further the stories of a white male character. If you can't make Walker interesting without doing that, then he's just not an interesting character -- or, you're just a shitty writer.

    Really, when you consider how the final episode played out? You didn't need Battlestar in this at all (especially not just to have him killed off in a cringey, cliche manner). It would have been a tighter story, and made his being on team Sam and Bucky in the finale seem less jarring, if they'd just not been as completely dismissive of him, from the start.

    He joins them at the fight with the Flag Smashers on top of the trucks. The exposition about his past and his PTSD, doubts, etc is with Sam and Bucky instead of with Lemar, establishing relationships with them that would make the battle when they take the shield more dramatic, and likewise make it more believable when they allow him to rejoin them in the finale battle, since he would have been a teammate through most of the show already, at that point. The audience still gets to know him and sympathize with him, through his conversations with Sam/Bucky, and you don't introduce an extraneous black character just to kill him off in a problematic tropey fashion.



    Sure, if you just really wanted to have Battlestar appear, then yeah, I'd say having him survive so he can be the one to bring Walker back to the good side in episode six would be better. But being included as nothing but a helpful non-entity for Walker kind of plays into the magical negro trope itself, so ... I guess, again, wondering if it would have been better to just leave the character out, if you didn't have plans to use him in any later capacity, and possibly raise the character's profile in comics.

    If you did just leave Hoskins out, and let Walker team with Sam and Bucky from the start, you could really just lead into his breakdown by showing his PTSD along with having him continually coming in last/needing to be helped or saved by Bucky or Sam in battle after battle, throughout the show. This wouldn't really be hard to buy, given you've shown the two main characters to be seasoned veterans of many super-powered battles throughout the MCU, while even though Walker may be a veteran of regular combat, he is absolutely a rookie in this arena.

    You have him unraveling because he is absolutely failing to live up to being Captain America, meanwhile what he views as two past sidekicks of the original Cap are regularly out-performing him. He's likewise getting pressure from his superiors to resolve the whole Flag Smashers thing, while on the ground of it all, he is aware that he's completely just tagging along behind Sam and Bucky, with nothing much to contribute at all -- not only not helping, but even getting in the way or seeming to mess things up, instead.

    The incident where he kills someone didn't have to be because someone personally important to him was killed -- again, that's a tired trope. It could instead have been a gray area where he maybe sincerely thought someone was about to be killed, and used lethal force to stop it. You can then have Sam and Bucky arguing that the situation was under control, there was no need for what he did -- the audience can have their take on it, as the story does not need to make it completely clear if they did have it under control or not. Like, maybe someone was already killed and more could have been if he didn't do what he did, but on the other hand, maybe he should have trusted the more experienced guys to handle the matter and not have been so desperate to prove himself, regardless of how he's been getting his ass kicked through the whole show.

    I mean, maybe a newly-made super soldier killing someone out of frustration, insecurity, and a situation where the right action was just not clear would have made him less a character that some would have related to so much ... I don't know though, I did read the original run with John Walker way back when it was originally done, and I don't think this would have been far off, from his initial characterization.
    They didn't team up with him man... he showed up and started beating ass/helping. It was conincidental.

    aNd they still didn't trust him... Sam made sure Bucky went with Walker when they split up. They never hated the dude, they even tried to show him that killing the guy is probably not a big deal lol. Buck/Sam didn't give two shits about the dead dude... they just didn't want the dude with Cap's shield being the executioner. They only wanted the shield.

    this just seems like a lot of extra stuff in a show that didnt' have timet o do what they wanted (flag smashers needed a whole nother hour lol) when... killin the brother off works much more quickly.

    He needed a big boost to why he would go from decorated medal of honor soldier to executioner. A gradually decline wasn't going to do it... we saw the gradual decline. The serum + lemar gives him an "out" for still being grey and not a totally shitty dude. It needed to be dramatic... and concise.

    Now completely throw the flag smashers out and make it a full 6 shows JUST documenting Walker and you can take this slower, more windy path to him breaking. But they did it in three episodes (he wasn't introduced really until ep 2, and ep4 he broke, ep5 needed the fight for the shield).
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  6. #7956
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Euphoria sexualizes rape and its teen characters way more than Riverdale and the OC do.
    I disagree. Just look at how Riverdale (mis)handled Archie being raped by Ms Grundy.

  7. #7957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    I was just going to pose the question, and so now that it has more or less sunk in, how did everybody think Isiah Bradley, The Falcon and The Winter Soldier came across on the representation scorecard?

    I found it more than fair for a Disney production. For as many a Black moving pieces there were, not a ton mind you, but I don't think anyone can put it in a box as a 'Black show'. Which is good.




    I agree. Also we got three new white characters, a returning blond who is different now, Elaine from Seinfield and Walker, who are ALL willing to do 'whatever it takes' to get 'whatever they need'. Don't leave out Zemo's old ass butler even got some work in...

    Also this article (with zero nuance and clearly not intended for me) misses a part about the 'Bucky' name that's been brought up here even, as if the Lamar character didn't have a white guy in Grenwald that wrote that out to begin with.

    End of the day I'm not super broke up over Battlestar, I thought it was great the character was even used. Clé Bennett as Lemar played it pretty sincere but they missed a HUGE opportunity to have

    spoilers:
    Sam as Captain America have any dealings with another Black guy who is closer to the mantle than honestly anyone else. HUGE miss, I ain't saying they had to be partners but even to show up down the line supporting Sam Cap in any capacity. That bothers me most, there was no gain of heroes here, two roles became one which was going to happen anyway and a grander exit Lemar could have came down the line.
    end of spoilers

    Of course that would just fuck up the rule of 1 as far as Black characters go. It's fine for Martin and Will to do it because they're in it for yucks but Lemar putting in some work as a backup or God forbid, together would have really been a forward move.

    Also Spellman is great but he works for corporate, big corporate, the biggest and he is only going to be able to put forth but so much as far as speaking to any ideas of what Black people can and would say in ficiton. And C'mon, once we all saw that

    spoilers:
    US Agent was a going to be a thing, that was going to carry over and be felt with way more of the fan base than Battlestar ultimately would have been. Dude is Punisher-lite.
    end of spoilers





    Outside of that I thought Anthony Mackie carried this show in and out of the Falcon suit and that was a pleasant surprise. There's vibe to him, a happens to be Black vibe that certainly helps. I was at a comic show this weekend and those mid 80's 616 Cap books are wall books now so people like him and the role. Didn't play it too cool ever and if I had to pick out the corniest delivery of his dialogue, it would be the speech in the finale but even then he made it work with in the show context.


    My favorite line of the whole series was the second time Sam visits Isaiah and he's carrying that leather bag with the shield and Bradly's like. "Is that what I think it is? Mm-hmm, don't take it out." LOL, YES! I must have rewound that half a dozen times. That was way more than an easter egg, that was an omelet.

    The remaining Black folks were delegated to background scenery and montage filler and there should have more of that. I guess Sebastian Shaw is invited to the BBQ because he was literally shown to be at a BBQ more or less.

    Not by and large any real progress, more of a lateral move and if your really about it, kind of another L in the bigger picture.
    Can’t agree more.. found both Karli & Battlstars deaths wack would’ve like to seen more of them buth especially Karli maybe she’ll pop up in comics. She didn’t work great as a Tbolt imo..

  8. #7958

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I disagree. Just look at how Riverdale (mis)handled Archie being raped by Ms Grundy.
    I don't remember Riverdale showing graphic rape scenes like they were normal sex scenes. Euphoria did though. It's weird enough that a teen drama like Euphoria had so many sex scenes, they had to pair up most of the teenage characters with adults to make it worse.
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  9. #7959
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    Just confirmed that Sersi (Celestial-engineered immortal and one of Marvel’s top tier matter manipulators) played by Gemma Chan will be the main/viewpoint character of the Eternals film.
    Last edited by Ragged Maw; 04-30-2021 at 08:16 AM.

  10. #7960
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    They didn't team up with him man... he showed up and started beating ass/helping. It was conincidental.

    aNd they still didn't trust him... Sam made sure Bucky went with Walker when they split up. They never hated the dude, they even tried to show him that killing the guy is probably not a big deal lol. Buck/Sam didn't give two shits about the dead dude... they just didn't want the dude with Cap's shield being the executioner. They only wanted the shield.

    this just seems like a lot of extra stuff in a show that didnt' have timet o do what they wanted (flag smashers needed a whole nother hour lol) when... killin the brother off works much more quickly.

    He needed a big boost to why he would go from decorated medal of honor soldier to executioner. A gradually decline wasn't going to do it... we saw the gradual decline. The serum + lemar gives him an "out" for still being grey and not a totally shitty dude. It needed to be dramatic... and concise.

    Now completely throw the flag smashers out and make it a full 6 shows JUST documenting Walker and you can take this slower, more windy path to him breaking. But they did it in three episodes (he wasn't introduced really until ep 2, and ep4 he broke, ep5 needed the fight for the shield).
    I mean, maybe they should have just made it a little longer? It's like how the last season of Game of Thrones got so much criticism for how abrupt Khaleesi's heel turn was -- also just six episodes, and I don't see how either show would have been hurt by at least a couple more episodes, so fans don't get such extreme whiplash when a character just switches sides seeming totally out of the blue.

    Anyway, my point was that maybe just having Walker with Sam and Bucky the whole time could have taken less time for showing what happens with Walker. You basically just have him kind of background through most of it ... let him be largely ignored, dismissed, beat up and made fun of through most of what's going on. He obviously has a hard time dealing with that, since he's supposed to be Captain America, and that treatment is obviously the exact opposite of how Steve would be treated, if he was a part of the mix.

    Then, you have this character who hasn't been taken seriously enough come out of the blue and straight murder somebody, probably in part because he's been ignored and has felt powerless throughout. You still get to have Sam and Bucky (justifiably) take the shield from him, you still get to have the government strip him of the title for using the shield to murder somebody in broad daylight, only now the commentary is about how giving him such high responsibility with nowhere near enough support led to a tragedy.

    This again lets him come back to help in a non-homicidal way, and still leaves the character open for the MCU to use as a morally grey character on a redemption arc. I mean, obviously I can only speculate if this route might have been better, at this point, but it at least would have avoided the problem of needing to give him a helpful black buddy to get killed off, to motivate his heel turn.
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    In addition to the titular black samurai character being voiced by Lakeith Stanfield, Yasuke's Japanese voice actor will be Jun Soejima, who is African-Japanese. This will be Soejima's first voice acting role, as he previously played MC Che.ck-It-Out in Kamen Rider Zero-One. The Washington Post did an interview with him in December among other famous African-Japanese folks living in Japan.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...y-naomi-osaka/

    His late African-American father, Willie Dorsey, was also an actor in the 1970s Japanese film industry.

    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0233446/

  12. #7962
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragged Maw View Post
    Just confirmed that Sersi (Celestial-engineered immortal and one of Marvel’s top tier matter manipulators) played by Gemma Chan will be the main/viewpoint character of the Eternals film.
    Wait... wasn't gemmma chan in Captain MArvel/??
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Wait... wasn't gemmma chan in Captain MArvel/??
    Yeah, as a very minor blue-skinned Kree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In addition to the titular black samurai character being voiced by Lakeith Stanfield, Yasuke's Japanese voice actor will be Jun Soejima, who is African-Japanese. This will be Soejima's first voice acting role, as he previously played MC Che.ck-It-Out in Kamen Rider Zero-One. The Washington Post did an interview with him in December among other famous African-Japanese folks living in Japan.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...y-naomi-osaka/

    His late African-American father, Willie Dorsey, was also an actor in the 1970s Japanese film industry.

    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0233446/
    Wow.....a legacy in the making.

    Major standing ovation applause to Lesean Thomas for finding this guy and giving him the role of voicing Yasuke... hopefully this is the start of more diversity in voice acting outside the Western world.

    Many thanks for sharing this.

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