Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Lord Morph]

I love the games, so I'm enjoying the Fallout tv show, though I have to say the Maximus character unfortunately has some serious Finn vibes going on. All the characters are flawed, but did he need to be just consistently inept at everything?

Eh, maybe he'll get some big redeeming turn, somewhere towards the end. I mean, probably. He still didn't have to be bumbling through most of the series. Wasted protagonist character.

i notice he's getting a lot of hate and disdain. It has really become predictable and irritating when you see an diverse ensemble and the one character that people either hate or indifferent on is the Black character(Recent example of this is Wyll in BG3). When I was watching Fallout I was like yeah I bet Maximus is going to be the character out of the 3 leads most aren't high on and sure enough.

I don't mind the character starting off as inept because it does pave the way for easy growth and development through what will likely be a multi season series. Whereas Finn's whole arc was tossed aside and he was not really given enough time to develop within three 2 hour films. I'm cautiously optimistic...cautiously.

[Surf]

What exactly is going on between Drake, Rick Ross and Kendrick Lamar?

The beef seems to have come out of nowhere because these guys have worked together before.

We're not in Kansas, i.e. the 90's anymore but I'll take it.

Champagne snapped back though lol. I'm kinda impressed. Ross is out here slangin' mud, he got social media issues with that ex of his he need to look into first.

Also fixed your post. Cole took his ball and went home... wasn't even his ball.

[Username taken]

I'm stepping a bit into a powder keg here but the death of OJ Simpson has raised some interesting observations lately.

Just to be clear, OJ Simpson was obviously involved in the death of his ex-wife and Ron Goldman but some people are re-casting his winning the case as "the beginning of race politics" in the US. LOL, the OJ Simpson case was right after the Rodney King case. For those too young to remember (or weren't born then), the Rodney King riots were similar to the George Floyd 2020 protests/riots (and just like 2020, it was a series of events that led to the Rodney King riots including the murder of Latasha Harlins in a Korean store and said store owner getting a very, very light sentence for killing a 15 year old girl which is why Koreatown was hit badly during the riots).

The LAPD was plagued by racism and the lead Detective on the OJ case (Mark Fuhrman) was something of a neo-Nazi, this was the backdrop of the case that a lot of people seem to have forgotten. People can wave this stuff away today but the quality of people on the police force and the prosecution really do matters in cases like these. Yes, DNA evidence pointed to OJ being at the crime scene but read about the quality of the investigation and Mr Fuhrman's history....oh boy.

Again, I'm not defending OJ (he was an abusive and murderous monster) but it was the previously racist actions of the police force (which after certain events before the OJ trial did create doubt) that messed up the case against OJ (that and a shoddy job by the prosecution). The "not guilty" verdict and the black people celebrating didn't divide America, it was the division in the country (plus wealth) that led to OJ getting off scot-free. It is what it is.

[Username taken]

We're not in Kansas, i.e. the 90's anymore but I'll take it.

Champagne snapped back though lol. I'm kinda impressed. Ross is out here slangin' mud, he got social media issues with that ex of his he need to look into first.

Also fixed your post. Cole took his ball and went home... wasn't even his ball.

LOLOL..J.Cole just said "sorry" and dipped.

I guess he doesn't want to get involved in a back and forth with his guys.

[Username taken]

i notice he's getting a lot of hate and disdain. It has really become predictable and irritating when you see an diverse ensemble and the one character that people either hate or indifferent on is the Black character(Recent example of this is Wyll in BG3). When I was watching Fallout I was like yeah I bet Maximus is going to be the character out of the 3 leads most aren't high on and sure enough.

I don't mind the character starting off as inept because it does pave the way for easy growth and development through what will likely be a multi season series. Whereas Finn's whole arc was tossed aside and he was not really given enough time to develop within three 2 hour films. I'm cautiously optimistic...cautiously.

Yeah, there's still space for Maximus' development in subsequent seasons.

I can see the parallels between him and Finn though. From that basic haircut to the ineptness to him chasing after a white woman..lol.

spoilers:

I still don't understand why Maximus didn't just say Titus died fighting that monster. He lied to the Brotherhood and lied even more afterwards. I don't think he needed to do that considering what Dane did for him at the beginning. Also, they kind of wasted that power armor, I would have loved to see Maximus wreck some stuff with the power armor but alas, he just goofed around for large parts of the series

end of spoilers

[Overhazard]

Yeah, there's still space for Maximus' development in subsequent seasons.

I can the parallels between him and Finn though. From that basic haircut to the ineptness to him chasing after a white woman..lol.

spoilers:

I still don't understand why Maximus didn't just say Titus died fighting that monster. He lied to the Brotherhood and lied even more afterwards. I don't think he needed to do that considering what Dane did for him at the beginning. Also, they kind of wasted that power armor, I would have loved to see Maximus wreck some stuff with the power armor but alas, he just goofed around for large parts of the series

end of spoilers

I found the fan reaction to both Finn and Kylo Ren so fascinating I think it should be studied. Finn had all the traits that internet feminists swore up and down they wanted in a man, he was kind, thoughtful, considerate, vulnerable....but he was either shipped with Poe or infantilized. Tumblr was talking about this grown man like he was an itty bitty baby. They didn't see him as a viable romantic option for Rey, I know race factors in, I don't know how much, but I know it does. Kylo on the other hand, had all the traits feminists hate, dude was an incel with superpowers, but the fangirls adored him. There's something there beyond the "women like bad boys" trope.

[godisawesome]

I found the fan reaction to both Finn and Kylo Ren so fascinating I think it should be studied. Finn had all the traits that internet feminists swore up and down they wanted in a man, he was kind, thoughtful, considerate, vulnerable....but he was either shipped with Poe or infantilized. Tumblr was talking about this grown man like he was an itty bitty baby. They didn't see him as a viable romantic option for Rey, I know race factors in, I don't know how much, but I know it does. Kylo on the other hand, had all the traits feminists hate, dude was an incel with superpowers, but the fangirls adored him. There's something there beyond the "women like bad boys" trope.

I think the keyword here might actually be "internet feminists" - because I believe the actual statistics showed that the ST's audience became consistently more male, older and white as it went on, I've noticed that places like Jedi Council Forums eventually settled into having consistently more angry pro-Finn, anti-Reylo female posters than Kylo fangirls, while the stereotypical Kylo Fangirl tends to align pretty heavily with the "fanfiction sphere" of Tumblr and such. And let's also not forget that LFL themselves worked hard trying to portray TLJ as a film "too progressive for angry white men"... while ignoring they were pimping out Rey herself into a toxic relationship they expanded to include sidelining her entirely in the end, and that their film seemed to mostly argue "only our preferred types of white guys, like Luke and Kylo, are really good POV characters" rather than actually using the POV of any of the non-white, non-dude characters.

Kylo had NOTHING going for him as an individual character versus Finn... but he was a) a dude in a franchise that hadn't had a film headlined by a woman yet, b) white when ostensibly the new male lead was the black guy, c) the only new Skywalker in the production company's eyes, and d) played by an actor LFL wanted for Han's son before the script was written and (importantly) who's very good at playing "moody but handsome self-centered white guy."

I think we just saw a bad confluence of "Listen, LFL wants him to be the star because of the actor and the family tie they stupidly didn't give their main female lead" alongside "Vocal Tumblr Fangirls and fanboys who love to write toxic romance fanfiction with highly problematic elements are always looking for the next cute white guy to base their obsession on", leading to LFL endorsing a vocal minority and trying to argue those types of fanboys and fangirls were the "real" fans... alongside some nasty denial when its pointed out they actually did the opposite of reject white dude privilege and made the most elitist white dude movie in the saga.

The film-making subculture also didn't help because of its own bias towards "Cynical Sad White Dude" stories and how much they all want Adam Driver to play that character in everything - hell, when they made The Last Duel, they embraced the most cynical and pessimistic interpretation of all the other characters... but weirdly tried to soften up Driver's rapist villain.

Still, I think it's overall important to note than any honest (and likely unpopular in Hollywood) study of the films would point that half the audience left when they promoted Kylo as the male lead over Finn and shackled Rey to him as his abused girlfriend... and that the half that left had a disproportionate number of women and non-white audience members... even though LFL tried to argue they were being progressive.

[Username taken]

I found the fan reaction to both Finn and Kylo Ren so fascinating I think it should be studied. Finn had all the traits that internet feminists swore up and down they wanted in a man, he was kind, thoughtful, considerate, vulnerable....but he was either shipped with Poe or infantilized. Tumblr was talking about this grown man like he was an itty bitty baby. They didn't see him as a viable romantic option for Rey, I know race factors in, I don't know how much, but I know it does. Kylo on the other hand, had all the traits feminists hate, dude was an incel with superpowers, but the fangirls adored him. There's something there beyond the "women like bad boys" trope.

Lucasfilm should never have pandered to the fan "shipping" of Rey and Kylo. Kylo falls into a particular archetype that's pretty popular amongst certain fan girls.

It reminds of "Fourth Wing" (I think it's the best-selling fantasy novel in the US and has been for about a year now) and how the male lead was depicted in fan art. He was drawn as the "white emo, toxic, edge lord" type until the writer of the book reminded people that the character is dark-skinned. As soon as she did that, it caused some controversy because...he's not white.

[Mister Mets]

Lucasfilm should never have pandered to the fan "shipping" of Rey and Kylo. Kylo falls into a particular archetype that's pretty popular amongst certain fan girls.

It reminds of "Fourth Wing" (I think it's the best-selling fantasy novel in the US and has been for about a year now) and how the male lead was depicted in fan art. He was drawn as the "white emo, toxic, edge lord" type until the writer of the book reminded people that the character is dark-skinned. As soon as she did that, it caused some controversy because...he's not white.

Do you think there would have been a significantly different response just in terms of shipping if Kylo Ren were played by a handsome black man (John David Washington or Michael B Jordan) though he would have to be Lando's kid (presumably not with Leia?)

[Username taken]

Do you think there would have been a significantly different response just in terms of shipping if Kylo Ren were played by a handsome black man (John David Washington or Michael B Jordan) though he would have to be Lando's kid (presumably not with Leia?)

Honestly, I'm not sure it would have made a difference.

The fanfic ladies have a type which Adam Driver (and Kylo Ren by extension) fits to a "t".

I don't think the shipping community actually hated Finn or anything but they generally fancy a broken, toxic white guy that they "can fix".

[godisawesome]

Do you think there would have been a significantly different response just in terms of shipping if Kylo Ren were played by a handsome black man (John David Washington or Michael B Jordan) though he would have to be Lando's kid (presumably not with Leia?)

Definitely - but especially if he’s not a Skywalker family member, plus I don’t think any of the rest of the ST would play out the way it did if he were both black and not a Skywalker.

It’s the one-two-three punch of “This is the most high profile recurring white guy in the cast,” “He’s also the only new confirmed Skywalker,” and “His actor is really good at pouting and growing luxurious locks of black hair” that creates the feedback loop he depends on for his fanbase’s massive, obsessive bias towards him.

It goes “This character must be complex; look how sad and white he is!” -> “...And he’s the only new Skywalker, so he must be of maximum importance!” -> “...So he must be even more complex; hell, he’s entitled to our support because of how complex he must automatically be!” -> “...Which means we have the perfect Skywalker character to carry their entire story forward and be the main feature of the ST!”

In contrast, you make him “just” another charismatic, highly skilled black actor’s role, like Boyega as Finn, and I think at most you *might* get a tepid love triangle - but the day Hollywood fully embraces having a tent pole franchise feature a white girl pulled between her attraction to two different black men seems very, very far away.

I would also go so far as to guess that if Kylo were a black non-Skywalker, Rey almost certainly becomes Skywalker or a Solo. Now, if they decided instead to make Kylo Leia and Lando’s son? That might shift things again... but still likely toward Rey being a Skywalker. Shippers always want a sad white boy, but even non-shippers can have massive biases with weird ripple effects.

Fact of the matter is that LFL had two pathways that were sort of predictable after TFA, given Hollywood’s pretensions, pride and biases - do a “conventional progressive story arc” where Rey is the new Skywalker, Kylo likely gets redeemed as her cousin or brother, and Finn joins the family as Rey’s romantic interest... or slip into pretending that a “Rey Random” answer is more “progressive” for all of about five minutes before inevitably becoming deeply insecure about Finn being a better (and blacker) character than Kylo while simultaneously losing interest in Rey as anything but arm-candy for Kylo, screwing both those characters up, but then inevitably having to kill off their precious baby boy or else be force to admit they gave up on Rey and hated Finn if they allow Kylo to emerge alive and heroic because of their bias towards him.

Unfrotyanly, the latter pretty much inevitably happened once Rian Johnson and LFL convinced themselves Rey Random was a cool, “unpredictable idea,” and immediately their unconscious biases “infected” their material.

Now, to be honest, Maximus might be “safer” than Finn as long as Jonathon Nolan and Amazon either don’t introduce any sad white body type major characters in Fallout... or if they just don’t forget who their main characters are.

Hell, I’d argue that Rian Johnson simply didn’t “forget” who his main characters were in his post-TLJ work, and thus his privilege didn’t cause much issues in the Knives Out films or Poker Face.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Reminder that despite the controversy around Reylo the most popular ship on fanfiction platforms was FinnPoe. Star Wars was already pandering when they backtracked on Rey not being related to anyone important so who cares if they decided to give the shippers what they wanted. Last Jedi tried to do something different but people wanted the same old family drama and chosen one/destiny narrative brought back so we got a botched Romeo + Juliet with Reylo.

[OopsIdiditagain]

What exactly is going on between J.Cole, Drake, Rick Ross and Kendrick Lamar?

The beef seems to have come out of nowhere because these guys have worked together before.

they made subliminal about each other like immature highschoolers. I stopped caring about this beef when I found out Kendricks first no 1 entry on billboard was thanks to a Taylor Swift collab, what big 3 is he talking about.

[OopsIdiditagain]

What's the consensus on the new doctor who season? I have confidence in Russell T Davies as a producer

The giggle and church on ruby road had surprisingly good ratings

[godisawesome]

Reminder that despite the controversy around Reylo the most popular ship on fanfiction platforms was FinnPoe. Star Wars was already pandering when they backtracked on Rey not being related to anyone important so who cares if they decided to give the shippers what they wanted. Last Jedi tried to do something different but people wanted the same old family drama and chosen one/destiny narrative brought back so we got a botched Romeo + Juliet with Reylo.

The Last Jedi didn’t try to do anything different regarding the same old family drama and Chosen One/Destiny narrative - it just did exactly that for Luke and Kylo, but in a self-obsessed hipster way, and you can tell because it tried to punish Finn for being the male lead in TFA, and shooed Rey off stage as soon as it declare her unrelated, and made he entire film be about how only the saddest, most self centered Skywalker boys could impact the Galaxy.

That whole “TLJ was trying something different!” argument is a mix of some minimal truth and a lot of bullshit - it’s just Cynical Classic Star Wars For White Boys. Otherwise, people who liked Rey and Finn would have actually liked the movie. TLJ fans pretty much uniformly either loved Reylo or didn’t give a **** about what was happening to Rey and ignored her: TROS was pandering to LFL’s own Kylo obsession, which was why they fired Trevorrow for *not* giving Kylo an incongruous redemption-into-hero story, rather than any kind of reaction from the audience.

Also, “Reminder”: the FinnPoe fans never harassed John Boyega in a racist manner, never endorsed an inherently toxic relationship with inherent sexist undertones, and never had enough pull at LFL to impact anything, while Reylo fans *in* LFL successfully moved against Boyega in a racist manner. “Yuri fangirls” don’t have nearly the track record of “Fix the Bad Boy” writers for getting up to ugly shenanigans.

Although, that brings up another factoid here: LFL’s officially sanctioned Reylo stuff was made by fanboys, not fangirls.

...which explains why Finn and Rey get screwed so hard and why Kylo’s even more broken and dysfunctional as a lead character in TLJ and TROS than a “Fix the Bad Boy” fangirls would write it - Kylo fanboys don’t think he needs to get fixed, and want to see themselves and their teenage angst in him rather than treat him as a romance option.

Arguably, LFL was maybe even *more* racist and sexist towards Rey and Finn because it was dudes pushing Kylo rather than women - at least stuff like Twilight makes a (Bad) stab at making the male love interest sympathetic, while LFL just declared “The Neo Nazi School Shooter Mind Rapist is the most sympathetic character!”