Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Adam Allen]

Because every single person that tends to play her is a white European woman, never someone action Greek. See wonder woman we got an Israeli playing her over Greek actress. People always make her out to be Liz Taylor, she wasn't. Adding onto her with more fabrications does not do this woman justice.

They haven't. People with darker skin still got **** on during the BC era. Sexism and classism existed. When I say attitudes didn't exactly change, this is what I mean. We've grown but not by a hell of a lot over the years.

Yes. My point was and still is that non of that has changed in the years since her time. Or rather it hasn't heavily evolved.

By adding more revisions to history that we already know. I didn't say it was stifling their expression. I am talking about how their concerns are not being addressed.

So let's say there's a docudrama about the king of Hawaii, and they get a Malaysian actor to play the part and argue that the king was Malaysian. And the director told native Hawaiians to sit down and shut up. Do you think they should?

People are upset because too many people over the years have done disservice to her. Making her into something that she wasn't.

There is a lot here about other works that I don't think really relevant to Jada Smith's thing, so for simplicity's sake, let's say I agree with you on all of that. No argument.

What's your source on this part about darker skin, tho? I found this pretty quick:

Video: Anxieties about Race in Egyptology and Egyptomania, 1890–1960

In 1948, he wrote, quote "One must remember that Egyptology starting in 1821 grew up during the African slave trade, the sugar empire, and the cotton kingdom. Few scholars during the period dared to associate the Negro race with humanity much less with civilization" end quote.

In 1915, in The Negro, he wrote, "Of what race, then, were the Egyptians? They were certainly not white in any modern sense of that word, neither in color nor in physical measurement, in hair nor countenance, in language nor social customs. They stood in relationship nearest the Negro in earliest times. And then gradually, through the infiltration of Mediterranean and Semitic elements became what would be described in America as a light mulatto stock of octoroons and quadroons" end quote.

Du Bois also struck out at the school who asserted that all advanced civilization in premodern Africa was due to white Hamites rather than to Negroes from further south. Quote "Ancient and modern mingling of Semite and Negro has given rise to the term Hamite under the cover of which millions of Negroids have been characteristically transferred to the white race by some eager scientists" end quote.

In 1930, the US census succumbed to the one drop rule dropping the category of mulatto and classifying those with any fraction of Negro ancestry as Negroes. When Breasted's 1935 textbook edition discarded the brown option, however, he annexed ancient Egyptians to his quote "Great White Race." Ignore the white patch here which represents the ice sheet in the last Ice Age, maybe since this is a geology hall here, I shouldn't say to ignore that. But concentrate instead on the sweep of his great white race from the Arctic through the Sahara and the Atlantic to the Urals and the Caspian. The black race and the Mongoloid or yellow race are reduced to small letters on the margin and, of course, not labeled great.

Breasted insisted, quote "The peoples of the great Northwest quadrant as far back as we know anything about prehistoric man have all been members of a race of white men who have well been called the Great White Race. The men of this race created the civilization we have inherited. The Mongoloids on the east and the Negroes on the south occupy an important place in the modern world, but they played no part in the rise of civilization.

In conclusion, race was rarely far beneath the surface of 19th and 20th century America and Europe. And the legacy of ancient Egypt became a high stakes racial prize. The Egyptomania revealed in Blashfield's mural affirming Egypt as the founder of civilization underpinned Breasted's and Reisner's pioneering of professional Egyptology in America. The textbook Ancient Times helped shape standard college courses of Western Civ. The 1935 edition's insistence that early civilizations sprang from a Great White Race, embracing both ancient Egyptians and quote "our Indo-European ancestors" end quote was in tune with much scholarly and popular opinion of the day.

Du Bois lacked the specialist authority on Egypt of his Ivy League and Berlin contemporary, Breasted, but he understood far better the socially constructed nature of race. His challenge to exclusivist white claims on the heritage of ancient Egypt still echoes today well beyond the ranks of Afrocentrists.

I don't think that our modern (and recent centuries') culture's biases about light and dark skin can be accurately projected into the past.

Recognizing that your own biases are not shared universally can be helpful, I think.

[Username taken]

There is a lot here about other works that I don't think really relevant to Jada Smith's thing, so for simplicity's sake, let's say I agree with you on all of that. No argument.

What's your source on this part about darker skin, tho? I found this pretty quick:

Video: Anxieties about Race in Egyptology and Egyptomania, 1890–1960








I don't think that our modern (and recent centuries') culture's biases about light and dark skin can be accurately projected into the past.

Recognizing that your own biases are not shared universally can be helpful, I think.

Biases are a lot of what these sorts of discussions boil down to. And I would want to point out that this isn't the first time Egyptian governments have displayed insane and delusional anti-blackness.

I'm old enough to remember how the Egyptian government in the 1980s freaked out because Louis Gossett jr played Anwar Sadat in a movie because Gossett Jr is black.

A simple Google search on how Sadat actually looked (he was half-Egyptian and half-Sudanese but was indeed a black man) will quickly lead to confusion and simply reveal that a lot of what the Egyptian government is doing is simply projecting its racism. Sadat himself said he was black when he was still alive. One could only imagine how folks from that area in a thousand years from now would have argued that Sadat was "wHItE" if not for technology.

It's not really about history with these folks as much as it is their own bias.

[Username taken]

[Agent Z]

Because every single person that tends to play her is a white European woman, never someone action Greek. See wonder woman we got an Israeli playing her over Greek actress. People always make her out to be Liz Taylor, she wasn't. Adding onto her with more fabrications does not do this woman justice.

They haven't. People with darker skin still got **** on during the BC era. Sexism and classism existed. When I say attitudes didn't exactly change, this is what I mean. We've grown but not by a hell of a lot over the years.

Yes. My point was and still is that non of that has changed in the years since her time. Or rather it hasn't heavily evolved.

By adding more revisions to history that we already know. I didn't say it was stifling their expression. I am talking about how their concerns are not being addressed.

So let's say there's a docudrama about the king of Hawaii, and they get a Malaysian actor to play the part and argue that the king was Malaysian. And the director told native Hawaiians to sit down and shut up. Do you think they should?

People are upset because too many people over the years have done disservice to her. Making her into something that she wasn't.

Regarding Wonder Woman. The DC Amazons weren't explicitly stated to be from Greece and there have been Amazons of different races and ethnicities since Nubia was created. The Anazons of the myth weren't from Greece either.

[Darkspellmaster]

There is a lot here about other works that I don't think really relevant to Jada Smith's thing, so for simplicity's sake, let's say I agree with you on all of that. No argument.

What's your source on this part about darker skin, tho? I found this pretty quick:

Video: Anxieties about Race in Egyptology and Egyptomania, 1890–1960








I don't think that our modern (and recent centuries') culture's biases about light and dark skin can be accurately projected into the past.

Recognizing that your own biases are not shared universally can be helpful, I think.

Regarding the information, I've been trying to find the podcast I heard it on. But, short version was that there was issues about immigration and similar matters that plagued a number of kingdoms and ancient societies.

And you are right, biased opinions are a thing, and important to recognize, and yes modern view of race is going to not be the same, but at the same time there still were race and color issues, even far in the past.

My worry is that people are deifying a person who by her own choices ended up basically losing her kingdom to Rome.

On a side note, gonna be watching Queen Njinga of Angola this weekend.

[Darkspellmaster]

Biases are a lot of what these sorts of discussions boil down to. And I would want to point out that this isn't the first time Egyptian governments have displayed insane and delusional anti-blackness.

I'm old enough to remember how the Egyptian government in the 1980s freaked out because Louis Gossett jr played Anwar Sadat in a movie because Gossett Jr is black.

A simple Google search on how Sadat actually looked (he was half-Egyptian and half-Sudanese but was indeed a black man) will quickly lead to confusion and simply reveal that a lot of what the Egyptian government is doing is simply projecting its racism. Sadat himself said he was black when he was still alive. One could only imagine how folks from that area in a thousand years from now would have argued that Sadat was "wHItE" if not for technology.

It's not really about history with these folks as much as it is their own bias.

Now that is just wrong on their part if Sadat identified as black. However I still take umbrige with the director basically acting like Egyptians shouldn't have a say in how a historical figure of their's is shown.

You don't make bigoted comments like "Amir in Cairo in his bedroom" and act like you just made the best dig ever when all people are asking for is, for once, doing her as historical and not romanticized Shakespeare version that people usually see her as.

[Agent Z]

Right-wing media used to shun pop culture. Now it’s obsessed with it.

The right’s mounting battle against “woke” pop culture makes a lot more sense when considering its growing anxieties over the loss of social status. As political scientists Pippa Norris and Ronald Inglehart argue in the book Cultural Backlash, status anxiety is perhaps the key driving force behind today’s right-wing populism and grievance politics. Ultimately, what is at stake is a sense of esteem — that feeling of being at the top of the social and cultural ladder and having that position constantly reflected back to you in the media. Anxieties about the loss of social status help account for why topics as seemingly trivial as casting news for cartoon and mermaid movies now loom so large in the right-wing media’s imagination — to no small degree, pop culture provides the perfect microcosm for aggrieved straight white men to chart their diminishing social dominance in real time. It’s a convenient symbolic target to which they can channel their anger.

Today’s right-wing news media establishment is not merely content to throw spitballs at “woke” Hollywood. As one editor at a conservative news site told me, the goal is to “engage with culture,” not just rage at it. After all, Breitbart’s vision was all about the right’s long-term political success being dependent on its cultural success, or, as he bluntly put it in Righteous Indignation, “young people suckle at the teat of popular culture—but by refusing to fight for their attention, we lose by default.”

https://www.vox.com/culture/23699343...e-mermaid-woke

[Adam Allen]

Regarding the information, I've been trying to find the podcast I heard it on. But, short version was that there was issues about immigration and similar matters that plagued a number of kingdoms and ancient societies.

And you are right, biased opinions are a thing, and important to recognize, and yes modern view of race is going to not be the same, but at the same time there still were race and color issues, even far in the past.

My worry is that people are deifying a person who by her own choices ended up basically losing her kingdom to Rome.

On a side note, gonna be watching Queen Njinga of Angola this weekend.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion of course but

Donald Reid, Professor Emeritus, Department of History, Georgia State University; Affiliate Professor, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilization, University of Washington
Presented on 4/6/2017 by Peabody Museum of Archaeology & Ethnology and Harvard Semitic Museum in collaboration with the Departments of Anthropology and Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University

Donald Reid will discuss the history of how such debates have played out among Western and modern Egyptian scholars, artists, and writers, and how interpretations of ancient Egypt are intertwined with personal values.

Boiled down, the very credentialed guy explains people only think there were race and color divisions in ancient Egypt because lots of historians were white supremacists.

Just one guys opinion, but a pretty learned one.

[Username taken]

Now that is just wrong on their part if Sadat identified as black. However I still take umbrige with the director basically acting like Egyptians shouldn't have a say in how a historical figure of their's is shown.

You don't make bigoted comments like "Amir in Cairo in his bedroom" and act like you just made the best dig ever when all people are asking for is, for once, doing her as historical and not romanticized Shakespeare version that people usually see her as.

I agree with this that people have a right to say how their history is depicted. I don't broadly have any issue with this.

The only issue I have is the anti-blackness that some Egyptians have decided to define themselves by.

Like the Sadat example I mentioned earlier, it's not so much history for them as much as the fact they can't accept that black people have ruled that country before.

[Username taken]

Everybody is entitled to an opinion of course but





Boiled down, the very credentialed guy explains people only think there were race and color divisions in ancient Egypt because lots of historians were white supremacists.

Just one guys opinion, but a pretty learned one.

Egyptology is laced with and has been defined by white supremacy for a good long while. Seriously, if anyone thinks that some of these "scholars" don't have biases then I have a bridge to sell to that person. That's not to say I don't "trust the science" just that with a lot of stuff in the modern world, attitudes are decided by race. It is what it is.

When one digs into this stuff, it's surprising how much black existence in ancient Egypt has been "explained away" by on the face of it by what looks like outlandish theories. I'm not a "hotep", so I'm not one of those upholding Egypt as a great black civilization, however, the fact is that ancient Egypt (as it does today), did have a black population and did have black rulers.

[Darkspellmaster]

Egyptology is laced with and has been defined by white supremacy for a good long while. Seriously, if anyone thinks that some of these "scholars" don't have biases then I have a bridge to sell to that person. That's not to say I don't "trust the science" just that with a lot of stuff in the modern world, attitudes are decided by race. It is what it is.

When one digs into this stuff, it's surprising how much black existence in ancient Egypt has been "explained away" by on the face of it by what looks like outlandish theories. I'm not a "hotep", so I'm not one of those upholding Egypt as a great black civilization, however, the fact is that ancient Egypt (as it does today), did have a black population and did have black rulers.

I agree, although a question about the term, as I've heard in some discussions on culture that some people in Africa don't prescribe to being called "black" as they see it as a western term and prefer to be labeled as their region.

[Username taken]

I agree, although a question about the term, as I've heard in some discussions on culture that some people in Africa don't prescribe to being called "black" as they see it as a western term and prefer to be labeled as their region.

A lot of Sub-Saharan Africans don't actually call themselves black (a lot of Africans joke about being called black when their skin is largely brown). They define themselves more by tribe and region as opposed to race. Outside of when they experience racism, you'd be surprised at how little racial discussions are going on amongst a lot of Africans. This could be because a lot of countries are monoracial but you're right, Africans don't traditionally don't generally define themselves by race.

That being said, I don't know if this is the same with some North Africans. That particular region has a complex ethnic and racial makeup. For example, the current Tunisian government is literally repeating replacement theory...in a North African country and some Egyptians are raging against "Afro-centrism".

EDIT: Just as a follow-up to the last point, race, as defined in the US, has been largely based on "one-drop rules". For example, a lot of people from Hispanic countries who are multiracial at best but have some outwardly "black phenotypes" are categorized as black in the US. These people don't consider themselves black, they define themselves by their culture and where they are from. It's an increasingly interesting dynamic now because a very substantial number of African-Americans have traced their origins (via DNA testing) to Europe and even some outwardly white people (like Ronda Rousey and Joe Manganiello) have black ancestry, this means that America itself is a lot more of a melting pot than is acknowledged. A lot of the folks the US has labeled as black are ultimately multiracial but because it still goes by one-drop classifications (not to mention economic redlining and the likes), stuff isn't changing the way it should. Ultimately, the racial descriptors used by the US and many Western societies can't really be applied to a lot of other societies and cultures because of how they have evolved over time. This is probably why the discourse in North Africa is as complicated as is, people tend to mix up and evolve over time which generally renders traditional racial descriptors irrelevant.

[Adam Allen]

Also, just a personal opinion, but I even think the separation of "Sub Saharan" and North African peoples is some racist bs.

Sub-Saharan Africa

Sub-Saharan Africa is the term used to describe those countries of the African continent that are not considered part of North Africa. In 19th Century Europe and the Western world, the area was sometimes referred to as Black Africa. Africa as a whole was commonly known as "the Dark continent", a term that was usually intended to refer to the Sub-Saharan region. This was partly due to the skin colour of its inhabitants and partly because much of it had not been fully mapped or explored by Westerners. These terms are now obsolete and often considered to be pejorative. Further, they are misleading, as Africans are indigenous to much of North Africa, as well. Cultural writer and filmmaker Owen 'Alik Shahadah adds "the notion of some invisible border, which divides the North of African from the South, is rooted in racism, ... This barrier of sand hence confines/confined Africans to the bottom of this make-believe location, which exist neither politically or physically". Shahadah argues that the term sub-Saharan Africa is a product of European imperialism, "Sub-Saharan Africa is a byword for primitive African: a place which has escaped advancement. Hence, we see statements like 'no written languages exist in Sub-Saharan Africa.' Egypt is not a Sub-Saharan African civilization."

It’s time to drop ‘Sub-Saharan Africa’ from our vocabulary

First created by European colonialists to describe African countries south of the Sahara as inferior/ below, they believed that North Africa was more developed and considered them to be ‘white’ enough to have their achievements celebrated, but still not white enough to be fully accepted in Western society. The rest of Africa i.e West, Central, East, and Southern Africa, and one country in the North– Sudan (see how confusing and counterproductive this is?), were ‘too Black’ to be worth mentioning.

Okay, I won't go on listing people who also share this opinion, but you get the point.

[Username taken]

Also, just a personal opinion, but I even think the separation of "Sub Saharan" and North African peoples is some racist bs.

Sub-Saharan Africa



It’s time to drop ‘Sub-Saharan Africa’ from our vocabulary



Okay, I won't go on listing people who also share this opinion, but you get the point.

I agree.

It was developed as a descriptor to make some parts of Africa (particularly those where the Transatlantic slave activity was higher) seem "lesser".

[Moon Ronin]

Because every single person that tends to play her is a white European woman, never someone action Greek. See wonder woman we got an Israeli playing her over Greek actress. People always make her out to be Liz Taylor, she wasn't. Adding onto her with more fabrications does not do this woman justice.

This is interesting, Again if an Inuit trans woman with pink hair plays her in a work of fiction I really don't care. But what non "white European Greek woman" would you suggest? How about Jennifer Anniston her father is Greek? Or if half Greek is not good enough you can go with Efi Kiouki she is very Greek. Or just go to IMDB and look at a list of Greek actresses, spoiler they all look like "white European woman". Really don't know were you're going with this argument in which you would have to define "white" and to most saying "white European" would be redundant as the most basic definition of "white" would be European ancestry. Your argument is more about nationality than anything else, just went about it in a very strange way.

Wonder woman is a fictional character, could really care less what person plays her, though as put by someone else the Amazon women lived outside of Greece, most likely in the Turkish area so an actress with Levant features like Gal Gadot could be correct.

Liz Taylor played her in a film that is full of historical inaccuracies. If someone is watching a 60 year old film with almost an entire British cast thinking they are going to find a realistic portrait of Egyptian/Hellenistic history that really does shine light on how really poor the U.S. educational system really is. It is a movie with the purpose to entertain and should not be looked as anything but that. I haven't seen it in years but as I remember I found it kind of boring.

Does Cleopatra need justice? My argument is that fabrications don't belong in documentaries, but fiction is another story it is sort of the definition of it.