Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Tien Long]

Perhaps it really comes into play when the original gender/race is crucial to their backstory. Whereas one could make the solid argument race of the actor is integral if we're talking about characters like Black Panther, considering the African culture, I suppose there wouldn't be as much anger towards a character like Cecilia Reyes getting played by a white actor from that perspective. As long as they get the best actor for the job, with the character's background considered, then I suppose it all works out in the end.

I think context is important as well. I'm aware of history and how minorities (race, ethnicitity, gender, sexuality) haven't played many roles in popular culture. Unless race is an absolute defining trait of a character (more on that a bit later), I'm open to the various kinds of swapping. Though I was fine with Danny Rand being portrayed by a caucasian actor in the Netflix series, I was 100% supportive of Lewis Tan potentially playing the character as well. I know that minorities in media do influence those who consume these things. I also know that there's been a huge history of whitewashing characters, so non-whites portraying traditionally white roles reclaims this in a way.

At the same time, I know that the concept works the other way. Seeing one's hero who was your same race, ethnicity, gender, or sexuality altered.....it stings for anyone, white heterosexual males included. Thus, I think we should be mindful of others when making these decisions.

Actually, this topic reminds me of other controversies. For instance, I remember there was debate regarding Gemma Chan, a British woman of Chinese descent, playing a British woman in Mary Queen of Scots



Gemma said something to the effect that she feels more British than Asian and that her portrayal should work regardless of her race. For me, well.....if one is portraying actual history and trying to keep things historically accurate, I lean towards historical accuracy. Now, I'm not saying Gemma can't play this role. But I feel she's got to be very good in order to play it. At the same time, having minorities play these roles reveals interesting truths. Indeed, in Mary Queen of Scots there were a number of figures played by those of African descent. Turns out that was historically true, since a lot of the Moors and people from Africa played roles in the English court. That I wholeheartedly support.

[PwrdOn]

Medieval Europe wasn't hermetically sealed from the rest of the world as we might be lead to believe by popular media. By the time of Queen Mary, Europeans had already made contact with the Americas and plenty of other cultures around the globe, and there would have been plenty of curious travelers going to and from. Granted, a peripheral kingdom like Scotland would have had few visitors, but that would largely be because the country was poor and had little draw for foreigners, not because Scots were particularly good at maintaining the purity of their ethnic stock or anything like that.

But what would really be better than trying to diversify the cast of yet another period piece set in ancient Britain, would be to actually make some historical films dealing with locations and time periods that aren't covered as much. Granted, I don't expect many American film producers to be sufficiently well versed in the political intrigues of the Kipchak Khaganate to make a competent film about that. But doing something like, say, the 6th century Byzantine Empire under Justinian would offer a setting that would still be familiar to Western audiences, while still featuring a much more diverse cast than you'd see in most Roman stuff, and a damned interesting story to boot.

[Electricmastro]

I also know that there's been a huge history of whitewashing characters, so non-whites portraying traditionally white roles reclaims this in a way.

I recall that law professor John Tehranian is noted as having said, "Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with race-blind casting, as long as it works both ways." and I'm inclined to agree. So long as there's no discriminating going on, and the context of the films are responsibly considered and handled, then I don't think that casting a white actor in a non-white role is any worse than casting a non-white actor in a white role. Emphasis on responsibility, and with that said, I think that every actor deserves a fair shot.

[PwrdOn]

I recall that law professor John Tehranian is noted as having said, "Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with race-blind casting, as long as it works both ways." and I'm inclined to agree. So long as there's no discriminating going on, and the context of the films are responsibly considered and handled, then I don't think that casting a white actor in a non-white role is any worse than casting a non-white actor in a white role. Emphasis on responsibility, and I think that every actor deserves a fair shot.

It's more subtle than that though, since we are all sort of conditioned by existing media to believe that people in the past were all English speaking white folks. So it just doesn't quite "feel" right to, say, cast a dark skinned Middle Eastern actor as Jesus, even though that would be more historically accurate than putting a white guy in the role, and casting directors will let that subconscious bias drive their decisions. Or they will recognize this tendency and overcorrect by casting someone who is obviously wrong for a role to earn woke points. I'm all for colorblind casting, but in order to have that we need to live in a colorblind society first, it'd be putting the cart before the horse to expect that movie casting will somehow lead to fundamental social change.

[Electricmastro]

it just doesn't quite "feel" right to, say, cast a dark skinned Middle Eastern actor as Jesus, even though that would be more historically accurate than putting a white guy in the role, and casting directors will let that subconscious bias drive their decisions. Or they will recognize this tendency and overcorrect by casting someone who is obviously wrong for a role to earn woke points. I'm all for colorblind casting, but in order to have that we need to live in a colorblind society first.

Either the casting is done responsibly or it isn't, and at that point. it probably has more a problem to do with society in general than the movie industry alone, hence I call back to me saying, "So long as there's no discriminating."

There shouldn't be any discriminating to begin with, because as it should be made obvious to everyone, discriminating is objectively bad.

[Agent Z]

Outside of the MCU, Scarlett Johansson is not much of a draw. Considering that she was the one producing the film, she could have given the role to a trans actor if she really was serious about bringing attention to the real person's life story.

[PwrdOn]

Either the casting is done responsibly or it isn't, and at that point. it probably has more a problem to do with society in general than the movie industry alone, hence I call back to me saying, "So long as there's no discriminating."

There shouldn't be any discriminating to begin with, because as it should be made obvious to everyone, discriminating is objectively bad.

Yeah but casting is inherently subjective and will be influenced by the casting director's inherent biases whether they want that to be so or not. Of course, if every single lead role ends up going to a white guy then of course that's a problem, but looking at each individual decision there's probably some reasonable justification in each case why that particular choice was made, so you can't pin any of it on explicit discrimination.

[jetengine]

I meeeeeeean......
DID Scarlett Johansson sell it tho???
If you're trying make the point a 'closer to the source' actor was overlooked in favor of one that can 'sell the movie' perhaps you should at least know the name of the movie.

I'm not aware of the title because....

A. The film didnt come out.
B. I hate mob movies
C. It was a random bit of info I heard ages ago

[Electricmastro]

Gemma Chan, a British woman of Chinese descent, playing a British woman in Mary Queen of Scots

I'm reminded of Elementary, in which Dr. Watson, usually a white Englishman, is played by Asian-American actress Lucy Liu.

[ed2962]

It's more subtle than that though, since we are all sort of conditioned by existing media to believe that people in the past were all English speaking white folks. So it just doesn't quite "feel" right to, say, cast a dark skinned Middle Eastern actor as Jesus, even though that would be more historically accurate than putting a white guy in the role, and casting directors will let that subconscious bias drive their decisions. Or they will recognize this tendency and overcorrect by casting someone who is obviously wrong for a role to earn woke points. I'm all for colorblind casting, but in order to have that we need to live in a colorblind society first, it'd be putting the cart before the horse to expect that movie casting will somehow lead to fundamental social change.

I think this is sorta kind of part of the argument though...that the media can at least in part influence how people perceive certain groups ( including members of said groups themselves). It's why people want more positive portrayals of minorities in the first place. Art and entertainment don't necessarily lead to social change by themselves, but can definitely be a part of larger movements.

[BroHomo]

there's been a huge history of whitewashing characters,
so non-whites portraying traditionally white roles reclaims this in a way.

A history that continues in 2019 as the same old crusty@ss ideas and movie execs try to keep the same kinda faces on the screen barely bothering to hide the institutional prejudice and double standard
a non-white actor playing a traditional white char isn't the same. The audience is aware that when they see that movie/play doesn't change that characters whiteness.. they're seeing the non-white actor's interpretation of the role.

At the same time, I know that the concept works the other way. Seeing one's hero who was your same race, ethnicity, gender, or sexuality altered.....it stings for anyone, white heterosexual males included. Thus, I think we should be mindful of others when making these decisions.

Nah there's no such thing as "reverse white washing " lol
If Sony announced a Miles Morales Spider-Man movie Cis White dudes would lose their minds despite the fact that 95% of the other superheroes looking like them.... there's like 5 or 6 Spider-Man films with a white Peter Parker they can choose from. I think they'll be okay lol

Actually, this topic reminds me of other controversies. For instance, I remember there was debate regarding Gemma Chan, a British woman of Chinese descent, playing a British woman in Mary Queen of Scots



Gemma said something to the effect that she feels more British than Asian and that her portrayal should work regardless of her race. For me, well.....if one is portraying actual history and trying to keep things historically accurate, I lean towards historical accuracy

A documentary or a book would be better for a person who's that concerned about what really transpired during that time. The plague was was stilI around and i doubt very much that people.... even the nobility had the relative fit bodies of the actors, let alone mouths full of clean white teeth.. etc

Now, I'm not saying Gemma can't play this role. But I feel she's got to be very good in order to play it.

All the actors are playing people British people whose world 500 yrs ago wss completely different than ours but What makes you doubt her ability Shes got nothing to prove She was really really good in CRA The director was impressed by her performance and offered her the role she seems like she'll be okay lol

Or At the same time, having minorities play these roles reveals interesting truths. Indeed, in Mary Queen of Scots there were a number of figures played by those of African descent. Turns out that was historically true, since a lot of the Moors and people from Africa played roles in the English court. That I wholeheartedly support.

Having the minority char regulated as Cannon fodder, or wait staff is just all kinds of problematic and hopefully along with White Washing will soon become a thing of the past.

I'm reminded of Elementary, in which Dr. Watson, usually a white Englishman, is played by Asian-American actress Lucy Liu.

It it continues to follow in this "controversial" footsteps her performance should be pretty zam good lol

[Moon Ronin]

Saw this and thought it was funny, Hollywood hates readheads.

[Tien Long]

A history that continues in 2019 as the same old crusty@ss ideas and movie execs try to keep the same kinda faces on the screen barely bothering to hide the institutional prejudice and double standard
a non-white actor playing a traditional white char isn't the same. The audience is aware that when they see that movie/play doesn't change that characters whiteness.. they're seeing the non-white actor's interpretation of the role.

To some extent, yes, the audience is aware that they're seeing an interpretation, which can be pretty damn good by the way. Here in NYC as well as elsewhere, there have been numerous instances of that happening. With the stage performance of Hamilton we see tons of African-Americans, Latinos, and other PoC playing Washington, Adams, Hamilton, Hamilton's sisters, etc. I think of something like Les Miserables which has both on stage and film adaptations had blacks and other PoC playing roles. (Check out the 25th anniversary of Les Miserables from the 02 Arena. The actor who played Javert was incredible.)

Still, that comes down to what the movie/play striving for. Is it trying to be performance? Or ACTUAL history? If it's performance, I totally agree minorities could play. If it's actual history....I'll talk more about that when we get to Gemma Chan.

Nah there's no such thing as "reverse white washing " lol
If Sony announced a Miles Morales Spider-Man movie Cis White dudes would lose their minds despite the fact that 95% of the other superheroes looking like them.... there's like 5 or 6 Spider-Man films with a white Peter Parker they can choose from. I think they'll be okay lol

In terms of Miles Morales, then I'll agree that a cis white male shouldn't be complaining. Miles is a different character from Peter. He's his own self. There are other options out there. Allow others who haven't had this option to finally enjoy this. I'd say (and have said) the same thing if people complained about Falcon taking over the Captain America role. Falcon is a separate character. Cap gave that shield to Falcon.

But people, whether privileged or not, don't like to have things taken away. Especially if there is a sense of belonging or ownership. Minorities haven't liked it when whites do black or yellowface, or race bend. It's the same way with whites.

Now, as someone who has an idea of power imbalances in America, I would accept a person of a different race, ethnicity, gender, or sexuality to play a traditionally non-minority role. Like I stated before, I totally accepted an Asian Danny Rand for Netflix's Iron Fist. The performance, the spirit of the role, that should be the most important thing. But yeah, changing a prominent quality of a character, I still say people exercise awareness of others, cis white males included.

A documentary or a book would be better for a person who's that concerned about what really transpired during that time. The plague was was stilI around and i doubt very much that people.... even the nobility had the relative fit bodies of the actors, let alone mouths full of clean white teeth.. etc

All the actors are playing people British people whose world 500 yrs ago wss completely different than ours but What makes you doubt her ability Shes got nothing to prove She was really really good in CRA The director was impressed by her performance and offered her the role she seems like she'll be okay lol Having the minority char regulated as Cannon fodder, or wait staff is just all kinds of problematic and hopefully along with White Washing will soon become a thing of the past.

Perhaps this is where we differ. Documentaries and books are supposed to be fairly accurate of the past, I agree. But if a movie or TV show is trying to present itself as real history, than it isn't just a performance or interpretation. It isn't a Hamilton or Les Miserables. It should be accurate to the time period. We were not as diverse as we are now. And yes I believe that race and ethnicity are a parts of that. These physical features aren't completely different from the past. I feel that they are more prominent features than relative health.

Let me be clear though; I lean towards this belief. I don't fully agree with it. Hence, I'm open to the possibility of Gemma Chan playing the role. Because perhaps that performance could be that good.

It it continues to follow in this "controversial" footsteps her performance should be pretty zam good lol

That series is set in modern times, right? Not 19th century England? Then yes, Lucy Liu can play Watson. Totally support that.

[jetengine]

I wouldn't accept an Asian Danny Rand because its both racist and misses the point. The racism is from the standard reason a chunk of the audience wanted him asian "Because asians know kung fu" and it misses the point because Iron Fist is about a white guy learning martoal arts from magic akterbate dimension chinese people. Yeah is it schlocky and racist ? Definitely. But it was built atound exploitation cinema.

It would also alter his dynamics with Luke

[Agent Z]

I wouldn't accept an Asian Danny Rand because its both racist and misses the point. The racism is from the standard reason a chunk of the audience wanted him asian "Because asians know kung fu" and it misses the point because Iron Fist is about a white guy learning martoal arts from magic akterbate dimension chinese people. Yeah is it schlocky and racist ? Definitely. But it was built atound exploitation cinema.

It would also alter his dynamics with Luke

Asians knowing kung fu in and of itself is not racist. On the other hand, playing the mighty whitey trope completely straight is very much racist in any context.

And it wasn't like Luke and Danny had much of a dynamic in the shows anyway. Besides the MCU has altered relationships or created new ones entirely.