Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Username taken]

No question. That's so frustrating. Good actor, great concept and we end up with a fool just capable of shooting "Rey!! Rey!!".

His destiny as former trooper to lead an uprising, his rivalry with Phasma, his potential as force user, hell, even his bromance with Poe, all wasted.

Quoted for truth.

[MindofShadow]

No question. That's so frustrating. Good actor, great concept and we end up with a fool just capable of shooting "Rey!! Rey!!".

His destiny as former trooper to lead an uprising, his rivalry with Phasma, his potential as force user, hell, even his bromance with Poe, all wasted.

They didn't even do the little stuff right with him.

Fine, you bait and switch the jedi ****. Fine whatever ti is stupid but whatever.

but... why not at least make him a competent shooter? The novel had him as a top 1% stormtrooper!

Why not give him a good fight against Phasma?

throw the dude a GD bone man

[skyvolt2000]

I do want to point this out though: I don’t think Finn’s receding role in the films was about China - not in bulk, at any rate.

Don’t get me wrong; they clearly lowered his profile in the TFA posters likely out of fear about racism in China... but at no point did any of the ST films do well in China anyway, and it wasn’t just the internationally released films that downplayed and dismissed Finn - LFL’s secondary and tertiary products were just as condescending towards him as well, and considering how pretty much all of the major award circuits are located in the western world, LFL repeatedly insisting on putting Driver down as their preferred male actor... it feels like his dismissal and ill-treatment has more to do with Western prejudices than Easter ones.

So what was the excuse for excluding him from the Rise of Skywalker toys? Everyone painted as a lead for that movie got a Black Label figure-except HIM.

They are doing a LEGO holiday special centered around Rey and zero confirmation of John even being there.

[godisawesome]

So what was the excuse for excluding him from the Rise of Skywalker toys? Everyone painted as a lead for that movie got a Black Label figure-except HIM.

They are doing a LEGO holiday special centered around Rey and zero confirmation of John even being there.

The “nice” hypothesis I have is that Lucasfilm never really adjusted to Boyega being cast as Finn, a character they themselves didn’t see a purpose for, because as far as they were concerned, Adam Driver as Kylo Ren was always supposed to be the male lead and Rey’s companion, and they were too blinded by their original conception of the film to adjust after TFA was a runaway hit even for a returning Star Wars franchise with Finn as male lead for a Rey as the main character.

Pablo Hidalgo has a few tweets that confirm that Finn and Kylo in TFA are “Decomposite Characters” of an original male lead, Sam/Skylar, who was Rey’s companion, a son of Han and Leia, and probably supposed to fall to the dark side in the first movie at the instigation of the “Jedi Killer.” Abrams and Kasdan have said they started out with a lot of LFL crew present in their writing room after Arndt, and then kicked them out and hammered out the TFA script, with the son of Han and a Leia part of Sam/Skylar merging with the Jedi Killer as Kylo Ren while the “Rey’s companion” part split off, was given an ex-stormtrooper background idea by Kasdan, and became Finn, supposedly, Kathleen Kennedy had already zeroed in on Driver for the “son” character, while Abrams pushed for and got Boyega as Finn.

In this scenario, LFL never accepted Finn as the male lead because Abrams and Kasdan “went off the reservation” in creating him.

And in my less charitable mood, and in my “mean” hypothesis, this was partially because LFL at best failed to realize how their obsession with Kylo was screwing things up after TFA and was simply wildly ignorant and therefore negligent to some extent, while at worst they were fully cognizant of what they were doing, but thought that a black male lead hanging around a white girl main character was “too risky,” and wanted to big up Kylo as a more “conventional” (i.e., white male) lead.

I feel some element of the “at worst” scenario has to be at play *somewhere* when you consider how ruthlessly they’ve sought to downplay and cast aside everything that made Finn a dramatic and important character in TFA.

And as much as I do love Rian Johnson’s other work, I feel like there was a somewhat paranoid backlash from him in his writing for Finn, what with trying to separate him entirely from Rey, or else the backlash stemmed from LFL. I don’t think with Johnson that it would be malignant and conscience racism, but instead old fashioned white privilige he was unaware of when writing TLJ. I mean, the guy and LFL both think of Kylo Ren as some kind of magnetic anti-hero who can be a love interest, and not as a school shooting Neo-Nazi patricide and would be mind-repost towards Rey... so clearly there’s some massive blinders on there.

... A good way to compare it to comics might be as a counterpart to Dan Didio embargoing and forbidding Cassandra Cain from existing in the DCU when the New 52 put Babs Gordon back in the cowl, but on steroids - Didio was overreacting and being bitchy about a character who didn’t fit what he thought the more iconic and successful ID was for a franchise character, while LFL was overreacting and being extra bitchy about a character in a role they thought belonged to someone else. Both cases have an uncomfortable amount of likely systemic racism going on, though the Finn case feels somewhat more severe given the massive public profile of everything.

[Agent Z]

Finn. finn, finn, finn, fiiinnnnnnn.

It wasn't accidental or passive. They downplayed Finn because they wanted the movies to do well in China. Star Wars is not popular in China.

There are a lot of things that bother me about Finn in these movies.

1. He's a bumbling dolt. He drives the entire plot of the Force Awakens, but he bumbles around, gets beaten up a lot, and he doesn't get a hero moment. Beating that trooper with the club should have been his moment. I didn't need him to outshine Rey, I just needed to see him actually beat someone in a fight.

2. The Last Jedi has Finn go through the exact same character arc as in TFA, because Rian Johnson was so busy subverting expectations he didn't know what to do with him. He starts the movie as a selfish coward who wants to run away, but the actions of his friends, particularly the girl he meets at the start of his journey inspires him to be brave. The exact. same. arc. He also gets a lecture from Rose about how bad war is. A black man who is a former brainwashed child soldier gets a lecture on the horrors of war and slavery.

Finn had so much potential, and they flushed it down the toilet, and that really stinks.

I can't defend point 1 but I will try to defend point 2.

Finn's arc in the second isn't really a repeat of his arc in the first movie but an expansion of it. His first step was breaking away from the First Order. Now comes the really difficult part of committing to the Resistance. Because it isn't enough to not support the First Order, you have to actively oppose them. The thing is, Finn was really only with the Resistance in the first movie because he had friends there but the Canto Bight scene is about him realizing the importance of opposing the First Order. Remember Anakin was a slave himself but he still ended up serving a tyrant. You could say that Finn's story was about how not to be like Anakin.

That said, the third movie kind of failed to stick the landing on this.

[Agent Z]

...okay, I kind of want to broach this subject here...

...But does anybody else think that LFL might have had an internal backlash against Rey and FinnÂ’s friendship and vaguely pseudo-romantic interactions in The Force Awakens, and that backlash screwed both characters over in the process?

Like, I think Finn got screwed over more generally by LFL wanting to make Kylo Ren the male lead over Finn, and market Driver over Boyega... but the way TLJ outright refuses to have Rey and Finn exchange any dialogue, doesnÂ’t have Rey bring up FinnÂ’s maiming by Kylo in TFA*, seems to primarily bring in the character of Rose just to be a non-Rey love interest for Finn all feel like going above and beyond that purpose to intentionally try and estrange and separate Rey and Finn entirely.

*(Yes, they also ignored the sexual assault allegory between Rey and Kylo in the interrogation scene, but at least Rey is talking to Kylo and HanÂ’s death is brought up... if obfuscated and responded to in a psychotic way that Rey is supposed to accept.)

And the way LFL has insisted on portraying FinnÂ’s past as a comedic janitor over an enslaved and dehumanized stormtrooper, and the way that Colin TrevorrowÂ’s Duel of the Fates script seemed to think that Poe as ReyÂ’s romance option before TROS went right back to disgusting Reylo antics... and the fact that LFL seems to have twice submitted Adam Driver for award consideration over Boyega even as Boyega shoots more scenes and does more marketing...

Like, I donÂ’t see LFL having an explicit and consciously racist intent, but am I wrong to think accidental and passive racism played a part in screwing Boyega over?

I would like to say that I personally would have preferred a Finn/Rose relationship because there are relatively few interracial relationships in media where neither part of the couple is white.

That said, this is why studios should be careful about how they respond to backlash. Assuming, of course, anything about how Finn was written was due to racist backlash.

[Agent Z]

Oh and speaking of Didio.

An interview with Janelle Asselin in which she discusses her time at DC under Didio's tenure:

I do think the culture at DC when I was there was toxic in a lot of ways. Didio would get so angry he would throw things and shout and slam doors – the door frame to his co-publisher office had a crack around it because he’d slammed it so many times. I once saw him throw lettering copy at an associate editor in a rage. He threw his office phone to the ground once and then was so angry about it being broken that you could hear him bellowing for his assistant down the hall to get him a new phone.

One of my favorite personal Didio stories is that we were doing Batman and Detective Comics annuals and Mike Marts, my boss, had allowed me to edit a two page story in each featuring the first published version of Dustin Nguyen’s Lil Gotham stuff. Nguyen had been doing those drawings on his own for a while and we really liked them but never had a place for them, until these annuals came along.

Anyway, Didio found out we were putting “kiddy ****” in mainstream Batman comics, and he lost his mind. Someone, I don’t remember who, popped into my office and told me that Dan was furious upon seeing the lettering and that he was going to come down to scream at me. Marts told me to leave for the day (it was already like 5 anyway) and that he would handle it, so I scampered. Marts got the brunt of the ranting and screaming that was meant for me. I felt guilty but also relieved, you know? I don’t hold up well under screaming.

And of course, a few years later, they published longer form Lil Gotham stuff to great critical praise which made me laugh.

My other favorite personal Didio story is the time I tried to hire Jamal Igle to draw Birds of Prey while Gail Simone was writing it. Igle had done some fantastic character sketches and Simone and I were super excited to work with him on it. I’d gone through the proper channels to get the hiring approved, including Marts clearing it with Didio, but apparently it hadn’t registered until someone had a problem with the hiring that they took to Didio.

Didio called me to his office to tell me I needed to fire Igle and hire someone with a different style. To explain what he wanted, he started miming with his hands large breasts in front of his chest. I said to him, Dan, please stop making those gestures, to which he responded “what?! I’m Italian!” as if that made it okay?

http://www.tcj.com/2020-report-day-d...-interviews/3/

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Oh and speaking of Didio.

An interview with Janelle Asselin in which she discusses her time at DC under Didio's tenure:



http://www.tcj.com/2020-report-day-d...-interviews/3/

Dan Didio should have been fired years ago. The moment he gave Berganza a promotion he should have been fired then. Its a travesty how long everyone looked the other way because the company above didn't think anyone else could run the company.

[MindofShadow]

I can't defend point 1 but I will try to defend point 2.

Finn's arc in the second isn't really a repeat of his arc in the first movie but an expansion of it. His first step was breaking away from the First Order. Now comes the really difficult part of committing to the Resistance. Because it isn't enough to not support the First Order, you have to actively oppose them. The thing is, Finn was really only with the Resistance in the first movie because he had friends there but the Canto Bight scene is about him realizing the importance of opposing the First Order. Remember Anakin was a slave himself but he still ended up serving a tyrant. You could say that Finn's story was about how not to be like Anakin.

That said, the third movie kind of failed to stick the landing on this.

I could see this if I squint but the way it was portrayed, it was just a redo of movie one.

He should have died. That speech at the end was insulting.

[godisawesome]

I can't defend point 1 but I will try to defend point 2.

Finn's arc in the second isn't really a repeat of his arc in the first movie but an expansion of it. His first step was breaking away from the First Order. Now comes the really difficult part of committing to the Resistance. Because it isn't enough to not support the First Order, you have to actively oppose them. The thing is, Finn was really only with the Resistance in the first movie because he had friends there but the Canto Bight scene is about him realizing the importance of opposing the First Order. Remember Anakin was a slave himself but he still ended up serving a tyrant. You could say that Finn's story was about how not to be like Anakin.

That said, the third movie kind of failed to stick the landing on this.

The counter to this is that Finn *has* already expressed enough perspective and empathy to know he should oppose the First Order - he came back to Han and started explaining Starkiller Base after being moved to do so when he saw the Hosnian System blow up and *before* he knows Rey’s away from Han. Finn wasn’t willing to abandon his escape attempt after Rey directly appealed and begged him not to... but he was willing to when he was forced to bear witness to another First Order atrocity.

He then also prioritized the needs of the Galaxy And the Resistance above his desire to rescue Rey, even while he testified he was on SKB for her; he focuses on lowering the shields first, and follows orders completely in staying on SKB after rescuing Rey and realizing they need to sabotage the oscillator’s defenses as well.

The implication of those major scenes and the focus on Finn in both is that he’s already feeling and acting on the moral obligation to oppose the First Order, while he’s willing to brave SKB specifically for Rey. It’s a bit like how, while Rey doesn’t explicitly state she wishes to be a Jedi and oppose Kylo Ren to defend herself and her friends because he’s an existential threat to them, that’s clearly the rational and emotionally resonant implication of TFA’s ending...

...Which is why it’s highly suspicious that The Last Jedi insists Finn hasn’t had a wider POV exposed and needs to go on a juvenile mission with the other non-white cast members where they screw up by not listening to a white woman, and why it’s equally suspicious that TLJ is arguing Rey doesn’t view Kylo as her personal enemy and is somehow likely to think he needs to safe the Galaxy and desires to hold his hand after having her mind violated and her friends maimed and murdered by him.

And TLJ seems wholly ignorant of Finn’s past as a slave himself when it’s lecturing him on slavery - that’s the part that feels utterly moronic, especially considering that element would provide a hell of a lot more reason for him to get more personally driven to overthrow the FO.

And the biggest issue is that clearly Kylo’s experiencing a different set of rules than Finn...

I would like to say that I personally would have preferred a Finn/Rose relationship because there are relatively few interracial relationships in media where neither part of the couple is white.

That said, this is why studios should be careful about how they respond to backlash. Assuming, of course, anything about how Finn was written was due to racist backlash.

The thing is, I’m fairly certain that interracial relationship where the girl is white are just as, if not more, rare than non-white interracial couples, even to this day - that the specifically racist taboo of a white woman in an interracial relationship is one Hollywood is still exceptionally anxious and shy towards. Heck, I think there’s a Cracked After Hours video specifically pointing out that Hollywood still favors any relationship where the guy is white, and any relationship between non-white actors, than it is one where the girl is white (specifically at around the 3:00 mark):



And there’s still something down right wretched smelling when you realize that TLJ feels like Kylo Ren, the only major young-ish WASP actor in the new cast, is somehow a natural romantic interest for Rey even though he’s done nothing but traumatized her, throw psychotic temper tantrums, and positioned himself as the personal and existential threat to the safety of Rey and her friends.

And it’s not like Rian Johnson is bing ambitious with Finn and Rose: he himself said that his original introduction for Finn (as Paige Tico’s Co-gunner holding her as she died and getting marked with a bloody handprint again) was dropped because it would have required writing a dramatic interpersonal conflict between Finn and Rose he just wasn’t interested in writing... so that’s why we got Finn being made fun of with a bubble suit when he recovers from his life threatening injuries instead.

If TLJ isn’t suffering from systemic racism (and sexism) issues, it certainly has all the weaknesses of them...

[anyajenkins]

At least part of their problem was trying to reach-capture’ the Luke /vadar dynamic from the OT. With Luke being insanely trusting and desperately trying to save vadar in the third one (which even then was a stretch.) but the current writers/producers do didn’t realize that a father/son relationship dynamic is a lot different a romantic relationship. Like a lot different..

I can see why they would want to ‘save’ Han and Lisa’s son, but they needed to go about it differently...

[godisawesome]

At least part of their problem was trying to reach-capture’ the Luke /vadar dynamic from the OT. With Luke being insanely trusting and desperately trying to save vadar in the third one (which even then was a stretch.) but the current writers/producers do didn’t realize that a father/son relationship dynamic is a lot different a romantic relationship. Like a lot different..

I can see why they would want to ‘save’ Han and Lisa’s son, but they needed to go about it differently...

There’s also nothing about trying to put a Luke/Vader dynamic on Rey and Kylo that necessitates screwing over and ignoring Finn; I could see how a blind and ignorant enough favoritism towards Kylo and recreating that OT dynamic could lead to sticking Rey into an abusive and shallow relationship with her tormentor at the hands of primarily male creators, but the apathy, condescension, and at times seeming malice towards Finn doesn’t connect immediately to the same blindness - particularly when it carries through past TLJ.

I really do think the most “racially benign” answer is that some of LFL saw Finn as an inconveniently high profile character with too good of a relationship with Rey and too much success as the male lead in TFA when they wanted Kylo to enjoy both of those, and that they may have tried to sabotage him a bit in both aspects. The problem is, it’s hard to see that as an innocently ignorant move when Finn’s a black character getting sabotaged this way.

[Username taken]

Oh and speaking of Didio.

An interview with Janelle Asselin in which she discusses her time at DC under Didio's tenure:



http://www.tcj.com/2020-report-day-d...-interviews/3/

Wow, I never knew he was like that.

He seemed like a "jolly good fellow" in a lot of his interviews. But as its been pointed out, the way Didio handled the Berganza considering the scandals around him was pretty terrible and ultimately said something about Didio as well.

[Nate Grey]

If that was their intention, shoehorning a redux of Luke and Vader with Rey and Kylo, respectively, following the through-line...wouldn't that make Finn Leia? And if so, who was supposed to be Han (between Poe and Rose)?

All rhetorical cause I find the whole thing silly. Both Finn and Rey could have had arcs that involved both discovering their own connections to the Force, training, all that, while keeping Rey the lead. They didn't have to ape the OT in the eleventh hour. They didn't have to do a lot of things (looking at crazy hermit Luke). SMH

[MindofShadow]

If that was their intention, shoehorning a redux of Luke and Vader with Rey and Kylo, respectively, following the through-line...wouldn't that make Finn Leia? And if so, who was supposed to be Han (between Poe and Rose)?

Naw, Finn is C3PO lol

Poe was Han.


What is wild about ST SW is that they badly just aped the OT to bring in the old OG fans... but at the same time took a dump on all the OT characters the OG fans loved. It is so weird. I feel like Disney should just do a documentary on WTF happened behind the scenes with the ST because none of it really makes sense from a fan stand point. HOW DO YOU NOT PLAN THE TRILOGY lol??

TFA could have been "the adventures of old luke/han/leia" and it could have been those three playling Uno and it would have made a billion dollars lol.

Why even have a trilogy? Why not a SW cinematic universe? Why did the same company that has the only successful cinematic universe not turn arond and copy that idea with a franchise that has the exact same potential do to have vast it is?

None of this makes sense!