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  1. #646
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    folks still complain about Moon Girl (which is the height of ridiculousness because I don't/can't understand why a grown man will be crying about books for little girls) and Kamala Khan despite Ms Marvel's success.
    It is precisely because these characters have become popular successes that they complain. Because to most of this complaining crowd, they can't understand, or stand, success by anyone else than people that are like them (i.e. all or most of white, male, heterosexual, and hale of body).

  2. #647
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    I don't think that everyone of these guys are alt-righters. And a lot of men can still identify with other men in fiction even if the men are of different races. However, many of these guys have been "red-pilled" and see any female they aren't used to addressing female concerns as some sort extremist...even if it's stuff aimed at little girls.

    And WoC only makes it worse because now the only possible reason a black woman they newer heard of can do extraordinary things is because someone put her there to "send a message" or to "virtue signal." Hence, Moon Girl being the smartest in the MU "insults" Tony and Reed.

  3. #648
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Logic says that but the box office says otherwise -- BP and Infinity War are two of Marvel's biggest hits to date.

    This could be a new paradigm where -- like the comics -- the stories are what keep people coming back for more.

    That's not so much my opinion as it is just bearing witness to something completely unexpected -- the next Spider-Man, Avengers, and BP movies are most likely guaranteed hits unless Marvel makes some serious missteps in the interim and what happens after that depends on how people take to the new characters.

    Now that the X-Books and Secret Wars are in play, Marvel has plenty of options going forward -- a Wolverine reboot alone would probably make near-record box office for Marvel.
    There are no stats out there supporting super hero fatigue.

    Thor 3 crushed all the other Thors. BP crushed everything in its path. IW was an absolute success. AM/Wasp made more money than Ant-Man.

    And with DC flailing and FoXmen going bye bye soon... Marvel actually has control of the super hero market. 3-4 movies a year isn't a ton

    (we can just ignore whatever Sony is trying to do lol)

    Plus, by weird coincidence, we have a huge gap in between marvel movies right now (late july to next march) and the same thing happens next year (SM is in the summer and the third marvel movie that year).


    Even if you get some fatigue post Avengers 4... the movies would still be wildly profitable. They aren't going to stop anytime soon.

    And their next generation is anchored by Black Panther (biggest solo movie of all time), Spider-Man (the most popular super hero in existence), Captain Marvel (they are crossing their fingers), and their trump card. Wolverine.

    Future of the MCU is actually very bright. And with the announcement of those mini series on the streaming channel, it could get even more involved.
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  4. #649
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post
    I feel compelled to watch what happens to Thanos and since i don't have GOTG to look forward to i might just hop off the MCU train if Marvel doesn't have anything cosmic to replace it with after Avengers 4. I still can't believe Marvel Studio had me watching Captain America and Iron Man
    Eternals are coming

    and they now have the rights to people like Annihilus, Galactus, Silver Surfer, the Shiar... and with Gunn gone, Nova might be a thing.

    The cosmic movies are still going to come out
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  5. #650
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post

    This could be a new paradigm where -- like the comics -- the stories are what keep people coming back for more.
    Man, I don't know if that's roundly the case, anymore. The output from Marvel has been recycling story arcs for nearly a couple decades now with only mild twists. In between that you had Magneto doing nothing with Thor's hammer, Angel getting his head bitten off, T'Challa and Storm marriage dissolving and any # of other asinine arcs. Sure there are Fraction's Hawkeye and that Vision that came out last year but that's not really the norm. Secret War is in it's 3rd go round isn't it? Skrull Invasion was a Battlestar Galactica arc before Marvel bit it wasn't it? Sprinkle in several relaunches and about a thousand new #1's and this is what the industry has going for it by way of story-lines. Continuity be damned. I feel, by and large the fan base that still rocks with the new stuff stick around for the basic functions of the characters. Even when the mythos around any given character has expounded i.e. the directions Black Panther has taken the past 15 years. Hardcore fans may or may not support it but they'll always be aware because it's Panther. Which is in some part why the backlash is so fervent when one of their beloved's has a shift to Jane getting a hammer or Riri getting a suit. New 52 was an all new direction and arc people rejected that and so many other stories because of a change to the nature characters. When it reset it went back to super basics, 1960s style. Comic readers don't take character growth very well. Not to paint a broad brush either but maybe they shouldn't have to. Maybe that is an inherent nature of the medium. Kal's cape will always be red, Bruce will always use a batarang, Cap was never going to be a Nazi and 85% of all of them will be white. Is what it is.

    Which is one issue I have with the MCU, it took them only a few years to start mining comic stories that are relatively very recent. Also the stories have to be adapted to screenplays and be broad enough to work as a single film yet NEVER have the expanded characters and arcs the single issues did. I mean you just can't do that on some level however this cuts out decades of 616 stories that work just as well and won't paint you into a corner after a few years. I'd argue that the last really cool large arching story-line (that I followed at least) was the Sinestro Corp from 2006. Civil War has been done and they've made Infinity War WAAY more popular than it was when the stories came out back in the early 90s. Maybe the big stories will fade but you've given the public a taste and after you do Battleworld, I don't know what's left to do frankly. Things will have to get smaller for the MCU at some point if for no other reason than Downey can't be Stark for another 10 years.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Comic readers don't take character growth very well. Not to paint a broad brush either but maybe they shouldn't have to. Maybe that is an inherent nature of the medium. Kal's cape will always be red, Bruce will always use a batarang, Cap was never going to be a Nazi and 85% of all of them will be white. Is what it is.
    Good points but we're in a world where BP outsold Cap's first effort and Carol (like Diana) might do the same -- really hard to say where things might go from here given the fact that movie audiences might be more open to change than comic book fans.

    We're in uncharted territory in a lot of ways but so long as things are trending upwards it doesn't make too much sense to me to err on the side of cynicism -- most likely because a large part of me wants to believe that comic book movies are here for the duration.

    The next phase will be telling but it's already off to a good start with BP and Pete -- the kids I've worked with all love them and I don't think there's any danger of them losing interest in the MCU anytime soon. I even had an older uncle get into GotG based on Rocket from the Infinity War movie.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 09-19-2018 at 10:32 AM.

  7. #652
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    Looks like we're getting a Space Jam 2.

    https://popculture.com/movies/2018/0...hoto-revealed/

  8. #653
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Looks like we're getting a Space Jam 2.

    https://popculture.com/movies/2018/0...hoto-revealed/
    This has bomb all over it. Lebron is a far more divisive figure then MJ was when he made the first one, and the Looney toons are not as popular as they were in the 90’s.

  9. #654
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    "Black Panther Leads New Avengers - How Long For The MCU?"

    https://screenrant.com/black-panther...der-comic-mcu/

  10. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Man, I don't know if that's roundly the case, anymore. The output from Marvel has been recycling story arcs for nearly a couple decades now with only mild twists. In between that you had Magneto doing nothing with Thor's hammer, Angel getting his head bitten off, T'Challa and Storm marriage dissolving and any # of other asinine arcs. Sure there are Fraction's Hawkeye and that Vision that came out last year but that's not really the norm. Secret War is in it's 3rd go round isn't it? Skrull Invasion was a Battlestar Galactica arc before Marvel bit it wasn't it? Sprinkle in several relaunches and about a thousand new #1's and this is what the industry has going for it by way of story-lines. Continuity be damned. I feel, by and large the fan base that still rocks with the new stuff stick around for the basic functions of the characters. Even when the mythos around any given character has expounded i.e. the directions Black Panther has taken the past 15 years. Hardcore fans may or may not support it but they'll always be aware because it's Panther. Which is in some part why the backlash is so fervent when one of their beloved's has a shift to Jane getting a hammer or Riri getting a suit. New 52 was an all new direction and arc people rejected that and so many other stories because of a change to the nature characters. When it reset it went back to super basics, 1960s style. Comic readers don't take character growth very well. Not to paint a broad brush either but maybe they shouldn't have to. Maybe that is an inherent nature of the medium. Kal's cape will always be red, Bruce will always use a batarang, Cap was never going to be a Nazi and 85% of all of them will be white. Is what it is.

    Which is one issue I have with the MCU, it took them only a few years to start mining comic stories that are relatively very recent. Also the stories have to be adapted to screenplays and be broad enough to work as a single film yet NEVER have the expanded characters and arcs the single issues did. I mean you just can't do that on some level however this cuts out decades of 616 stories that work just as well and won't paint you into a corner after a few years. I'd argue that the last really cool large arching story-line (that I followed at least) was the Sinestro Corp from 2006. Civil War has been done and they've made Infinity War WAAY more popular than it was when the stories came out back in the early 90s. Maybe the big stories will fade but you've given the public a taste and after you do Battleworld, I don't know what's left to do frankly. Things will have to get smaller for the MCU at some point if for no other reason than Downey can't be Stark for another 10 years.
    Lifers make up the LCS market and Lifers don't necessarily want innovation: they want assurances that
    what they are getting is as cool as when they first took up the hobby.

    Movie audiences are different. You can still pull off Westerns and Rom-Coms even today and those genres are best to death.

    You just have to be innovative in order to justify your presence on the big screen.

    With Comic book movies, Logan kinda is a blueprint for the kind of thing that we might be getting more of as things progress.

    Or things like a New Warriors movie where them being somewhat ineffectual tryhards compared to the Avengers will be the whole point and it will be played for pathos not laughs.

    You can't expect Comic fans to tolerate that kind of thing without backlash but the movies may have no choice.

  11. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Hardly. As tough as it is for white female characters to be accepted, it's even harder for non white characters. And God help you if you're female and poc. We learned this the hard way with Riri Williams, Kamala Khan, Moon Girl and Blade's potential daughter who didn't even appear in a comic before that idea got scorn.

    I don't doubt the Captain Marvel movie will face considerable crap due to the characters sex. But whatever she gays will be a cake walk compared to what would happen if it were Monica starring in that movie instead of Carol.
    Take what Michael B Jordan, Leslie Jones, John Boyega & Rose mix it all together and that STILL won't equal the hate that film would get if Monica was in the lead.


    I still can't believe Marvel Studio had me watching Captain America and Iron Man
    Because the films are not pandering. No one is trying to top what came before. It's "we are just trying to do a movie that everyone can enjoy. We just got stuck with the fewest toys and had to make DO."
    That is what is scary. Guys who were hated or could not sell comics in large numbers are proving their worth in films or shows.
    And LOL it's coming from diverse properties.


    The anti-SJW crowd really freak out at the mention of black women in movies, games and the like. I mean, we had these folks freaking out over Star Trek discovery because it was led by a black female and people complaining about how SJW politics had "infested" Star Trek (which is the stupidest thing i've heard in my life because Star Trek is EXPLICITLY about social justice).
    One MAJOR thing you will notice from that group-they don't WATCH or READ the products in question. Or they only go by hearsay or a trailer.

    You can't throw a fit about a black woman lead in Star Trek after Avery Brooks told all of yall to sit down on DS9. A single father who took on everybody and gave no you know whats. We won't talk Janeway. Who made the Borg her bytch and only lost 30 crewmen in 7 years.

    As you rightly pointed out, Riri Williams has gotten an insane and frankly ridiculous amount of hatred since she was introduced and folks are still attacking her now even though she isn't being featured in the books; folks still complain about Moon Girl and Kamala Khan despite Ms Marvel's success.
    They hate the fact that those girls of color are REACHING more folks than many of their white counterparts.

    There is no excuse for the Riri hate. For all intent she was a NEW character with a suit of armor she MADE. Just like NATASHA IRONS. I guess we forgot her.

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    You can't expect Comic fans to tolerate that kind of thing without backlash but the movies may have no choice.
    When you are making DEATH THREATS and catcalling to shoot up theaters over black Johnny Storms or Storm Troopers-we got issues.

    Especially when these guys CHERRY PICK RAGE.

    Don't scream RESPECT the source material for Fantastic Four when NO one else has.

    Who only come out of the cesspool is large numbers when it's a POC, LGBT & women on the screen.

  13. #658
    'Sup Choom? Handsome men don't lose fights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post

    Especially when these guys CHERRY PICK RAGE.
    That's true. A good recent example was when Tucker Carlson ran wild when some of the BLM crowd were doing the pigs in a blanket chant. "Black Lives matters is a TERRORIST organisation that WANTS TO KILL COPS!" he says. It couldn't just be that only some members of BLM said that, it's ALL OF THEM are in a conspiracy to kill the police. Zero sum game. But when you get examples like Mark Fuhrman admitting in court that he liked pounding the crap out of black people and calling them the N-word, that's just bad apples at work and it's totally unreasonable to fear the police.

    Speaking of Tucker Carlson, woooooo. He is unraveling. I think Fox News is at Defcon-Glen Beck with that boy.
    "A happy ending? So unlikely. We're not having a moment here.

    Wrong city, wrong people, all huddling in fear.

    No one escapes the slaughterhouse, and that's just where you're at.

    (You could've asked Rebecca but then Adam stomped her flat.)

    You think you're special cuz you're scrappy? You're deluded, time to go.

    Lucy's living on the moon but you're another dead psycho."

  14. #659
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    As a Watchmen and V for Vendetta fan, I can honestly say that even if "superhero fatigue" set in tomorrow the genre as a whole has had a good run over the past few decades -- there's been something for everyone, from "Ghost World" to "Kick-Ass" to "Blade" to "Jessica Jones".

    I can see where the sense of inevitability comes from but it's also pretty amazing how popular these characters have become worldwide since Marvel took over the reins of it's own movie making -- probably beyond what anyone ever expected, really.

    Except maybe Stan Lee in his wildest dreams.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 09-19-2018 at 06:38 PM.

  15. #660
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    "Black Panther Leads New Avengers - How Long For The MCU?"

    https://screenrant.com/black-panther...der-comic-mcu/
    What is interesting about the new "big three" is that none of them really scream "lead a group of heroes to do hero stuff across the world"

    Carol is basically cosmic it seems. She hasn't even been on earth in 20 years.

    Strange has his own job on the magic side.

    T'challa has a country to run, a country that has traditionally just mind its own business. ANd is dealing with the "i just opened up the country" thing.


    Cap and Tony had nothing else better to do than lead avengers lol. Banner has nothing else better to do. Hawk and Widow don't have jobs after SHIELD collapsed. Falcon and Rhodey are military with apparently nothing better to do. Wanda lives at the Avengers HQ.

    This new generation of "Avengers" actually have family and/or responsibilities other than kicking ass. Even outside the trio above... Lang has a family. Wasp has a family. Parker has a family (and school lol).

    The only old school Avenger dude who had other **** to do was Thor... and he was constantly leaving and disappearing for large chunks of time despite have an intergalactic teleporting device and an all seeing friend.
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