Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Overhazard]

Exactly this.

Sometimes, there's nothing wrong will simply fulfilling expectations.

If you're going to subvert expectations, it shouldn't be at the expense of the narrative.

The way TLJ has come to be seen over the years has been interesting. Some people see it as a deeply subversive thing that requires study, these same people tell detractors that it's "a movie about space wizards for kids" that they take too seriously. Which is confusing. It's also an insult to kids, they aren't stupid.

I think Johnson got a bit of a swelled head, he subverted things just to do it. He isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

[Username taken]

The way TLJ has come to be seen over the years has been interesting. Some people see it as a deeply subversive thing that requires study, these same people tell detractors that it's "a movie about space wizards for kids" that they take too seriously. Which is confusing.
It's also an insult to kids, they aren't stupid.

I think Johnson got a bit of a swelled head, he subverted things just to do it. He isn't as clever as the thinks he is.

Quoted for the absolute truth.

[godisawesome]

The way TLJ has come to be seen over the years has been interesting. Some people see it as a deeply subversive thing that requires study, these same people tell detractors that it's "a movie about space wizards for kids" that they take too seriously. Which is confusing.
It's also an insult to kids, they aren't stupid.

I think Johnson got a bit of a swelled head, he subverted things just to do it. He isn't as clever as the thinks he is.

I actually think he *is* that clever... in his familiar wheelhouse of crime fiction set in the real world, where he knows the rules, the stakes are usually restrained and mundane, and where the character archetypes are more familiar to him - and can maybe conceal some of their own issues within audience expectations. He did okay with Looper because the majority of that film is a crime thriller, so the sci-fi stuff was manageable.

Compare The Last Jedi to Knives Out, and you can see some similar creative instincts and ideas... but they unfold differently, have different implications, and read totally different because of the genres and franchises they’re in.

Johnson couldn’t seem to handle the actual scale of mass murder, mass enslavement, Finn and Rey having traumatizing childhoods, Kylo having absolutely no redeeming features and just being f*ed up in the head. He wrote Finn more like a token minority supporting character who needed to be lectured on the horrors of the Galaxy, Rey like a naive and passive hybrid of an Action Girl’s powers and skills with the lamer and less interesting personality of The Ingenue, and Kylo like a classic “bad boy” character when that's just a little bit of a mislabel for a mass murdering patricide who violated the heroine in the last movie.

Thing is, those types of characterization choices aren’t quite as outlandish or insulting in original crime fiction, where 1) you aren’t dealing with someone else’s characters, and 2)... crime fiction can afford a few more biases as part of audience expectations.

In crime fiction, Actions Girls are rarer than The Ingenue, Femme Fatales, or Evil Matriarchs - so in Knives Out, it makes sense to have Marta be The Ingenue, and be “too pure” and “too trusting” as her flaw. “Bad Boys” are more common as main antagonists/villainous protagonists than mass murdering fanatics, and can turn out to have layers at the drop of a hat - so in Knives Out, Ransom being an obvious jerk who can pretend to be more works. And because crime fiction is generally a little bit more racist and sexist than Star Wars, Knives Out could be a story promoting progressive values, while a lot of The Last Jedi’s problem are that it’s trying to be progressive while actually being mildly sexist and racist *because it’s following TFA.*

Finn’s demotion is still probably the biggest red flag for me, though - the blatantly clear disinterest and distaste in him being a male lead is what sinks that story in its entirety. But that wasn’t just Johnson - LFL wouldn’t have been producing a comic trying to make sure Finn was seen as just a comedic janitor, or seemingly interfering in TROS to try and decrease his scenes and their awesomeness.

I think Johnson *and* LFL thought Finn was a “mistake” as a male lead because they thought that should be Adam Driver’s job... which gets a bit racist when Boyega won the job, delivered a successful award winning performance in a $2 Billion film, then they deliberately sabotage and isolate him afterwards.

[Overhazard]

I actually think he *is* that clever... in his familiar wheelhouse of crime fiction set in the real world, where he knows the rules, the stakes are usually restrained and mundane, and where the character archetypes are more familiar to him - and can maybe conceal some of their own issues within audience expectations. He did okay with Looper because the majority of that film is a crime thriller, so the sci-fi stuff was manageable.

Compare The Last Jedi to Knives Out, and you can see some similar creative instincts and ideas... but they unfold differently, have different implications, and read totally different because of the genres and franchises they’re in.

Johnson couldn’t seem to handle the actual scale of mass murder, mass enslavement, Finn and Rey having traumatizing childhoods, Kylo having absolutely no redeeming features and just being f*ed up in the head. He wrote Finn more like a token minority supporting character who needed to be lectured on the horrors of the Galaxy, Rey like a naive and passive hybrid of an Action Girl’s powers and skills with the lamer and less interesting personality of The Ingenue, and Kylo like a classic “bad boy” character when that's just a little bit of a mislabel for a mass murdering patricide who violated the heroine in the last movie.

Thing is, those types of characterization choices aren’t quite as outlandish or insulting in original crime fiction, where 1) you aren’t dealing with someone else’s characters, and 2)... crime fiction can afford a few more biases as part of audience expectations.

In crime fiction, Actions Girls are rarer than The Ingenue, Femme Fatales, or Evil Matriarchs - so in Knives Out, it makes sense to have Marta be The Ingenue, and be “too pure” and “too trusting” as her flaw. “Bad Boys” are more common as main antagonists/villainous protagonists than mass murdering fanatics, and can turn out to have layers at the drop of a hat - so in Knives Out, Ransom being an obvious jerk who can pretend to be more works. And because crime fiction is generally a little bit more racist and sexist than Star Wars, Knives Out could be a story promoting progressive values, while a lot of The Last Jedi’s problem are that it’s trying to be progressive while actually being mildly sexist and racist *because it’s following TFA.*

Finn’s demotion is still probably the biggest red flag for me, though - the blatantly clear disinterest and distaste in him being a male lead is what sinks that story in its entirety. But that wasn’t just Johnson - LFL wouldn’t have been producing a comic trying to make sure Finn was seen as just a comedic janitor, or seemingly interfering in TROS to try and decrease his scenes and their awesomeness.

I think Johnson *and* LFL thought Finn was a “mistake” as a male lead because they thought that should be Adam Driver’s job... which gets a bit racist when Boyega won the job, delivered a successful award winning performance in a $2 Billion film, then they deliberately sabotage and isolate him afterwards.

Ah, so he's like Bendis then. I never saw Knives Out. He's good at noir, street level, and teams of no more than 5 people. The sci-fi stuff is just too much. Large teams and space books do not suit him at all, his Legion book was held up by great art, but unlike his guardians series, he didn't have movie hype to save it or Name brand recognition like X-Men.

The idea of Finn was nice. A black man as the lead, who wasn't a bumbling idiot who actually stood a chance at getting the girl. It was fun to dream.

[MindofShadow]

Exactly this.

Sometimes, there's nothing wrong will simply fulfilling expectations.

If you're going to subvert expectations, it shouldn't be at the expense of the narrative.

*Cries in Game of Thrones*

There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving the people what they want. Especially something that has been built up for a very very very long time.

If you are going to "subvert expectations"... what you come up with has got to be VERY FUCKING GOOOD

[Marvell2100]

Ah, so he's like Bendis then. I never saw Knives Out. He's good at noir, street level, and teams of no more than 5 people. The sci-fi stuff is just too much. Large teams and space books do not suit him at all, his Legion book was held up by great art, but unlike his guardians series, he didn't have movie hype to save it or Name brand recognition like X-Men.

The idea of Finn was nice. A black man as the lead, who wasn't a bumbling idiot who actually stood a chance at getting the girl. It was fun to dream.

They took Finn and made him safe. He wasn't going to be the lead hero -Rey got that. He wasn't going to be the badass rogue who played by his own rules -that slot was for Poe. He wasn't going to be the dastardly villain so powerful and over the top but eventually turned and defeated the ultimate bad guy -that went to Ben.

He was the safe buddy who brought a little comic relief and was in no way any threat to be a romantic lead. He was the guy who kept shouting "Reyyyy!!!!!"

[Marvell2100]

https://www.cbr.com/underworld-kevin...ng-of-killers/

Kevin Grevioux developing film adaptation of King of Kings.

[Adam Allen]

*Cries in Game of Thrones*

There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving the people what they want. Especially something that has been built up for a very very very long time.

If you are going to "subvert expectations"... what you come up with has got to be VERY FUCKING GOOOD

I don't doubt the show ended much differently than what GRRM intends, in broad strokes. The diffrence is that he likely plans another three 1000+ page books to get there, and they insisted on doing it in six episodes. After having already floundered for two seasons due to not having a roadmap laid out from the books, like they'd had for the first five seasons.

[MindofShadow]

I don't doubt the show ended much differently than what GRRM intends, in broad strokes. The diffrence is that he likely plans another three 1000+ page books to get there, and they insisted on doing it in six episodes. After having already floundered for two seasons due to not having a roadmap laid out from the books, like they'd had for the first five seasons.

Then the novels will have different expectations.

based on what was shown on film... yikes lol.

and I am not even talking about Dany... but I mean look at the battle in the north. they built up these cool white walker killing swords and the main character (jon) didn't fight the white walkers or the night king for instance. i don't think anyone with the valerian steel fought a single Whtie Walker. or I may have missed it becasue it was so dark lol

[Moon Ronin]

Then the novels will have different expectations.

based on what was shown on film... yikes lol.

The TV show will be the only ending we get to A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). George R.R Martin (72) will never finish it at the pace that he is going with two books left and he has yet to give us any thing in the last 10 years the chances of him finishing up the whole story are not very good.

[Adam Allen]

Then the novels will have different expectations.

based on what was shown on film... yikes lol.

and I am not even talking about Dany... but I mean look at the battle in the north. they built up these cool white walker killing swords and the main character (jon) didn't fight the white walkers or the night king for instance. i don't think anyone with the valerian steel fought a single Whtie Walker. or I may have missed it becasue it was so dark lol

Yeah, even for what they'd set up themselves, it really seemed like they just went, "Screw it!" and decided to wrap things up as quickly as possible, regardless of how it crapped the plot, characters, or fan expectations. And it didn't seem like subverting expectations, so much as not caring. They were on track to do some Star Wars stuff themselves at the time, right? I guess they were in a big hurry to do that, before they screwed GoT up so severely.

The TV show will be the only ending we get to A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). George R.R Martin (72) will never finish it at the pace that he is going with two books left and he has yet to give us any thing in the last 10 years the chances of him finishing up the whole story are not very good.

Probably because his desired endpoint of Dany as the defeated bad guy and "Bran the Broken" somehow on the iron throne requires a near impossible sequence of events, even if you do take thousands more pages. He really should just give up and have Dany take the throne, because as much as he may want the surprise, unpredictable ending, her crossing the Narrow Sea and beating the already exhausted houses of Westeros is the far more likely ending.

And probably let Bran somehow become a White Walker and the new Night King, not because it makes sense, but more because without some Deus Ex bs like that, the even more likely ending than Dany on the Iron Throne is the Wights just spreading across the continent and killing everyone, because a mass of ice zombies that increases exponentially with every battle isn't really a foe you will beat, otherwise.

It was a nice unusual thing, to have this supernatural existential threat hanging over the heads of all the characters involved in political struggles in the main story, but it also paints you into a corner unless you pull out some random bs in the end, to have your characters survive that threat.

[Agent Z]

They took Finn and made him safe. He wasn't going to be the lead hero -Rey got that. He wasn't going to be the badass rogue who played by his own rules -that slot was for Poe. He wasn't going to be the dastardly villain so powerful and over the top but eventually turned and defeated the ultimate bad guy -that went to Ben.

He was the safe buddy who brought a little comic relief and was in no way any threat to be a romantic lead. He was the guy who kept shouting "Reyyyy!!!!!"

Considering what they ended up doing to Poe, I think Finn dodged a bullet there.

And if you think fans were hostile to Kylo's face turn, just imagine how much worse it could have been for a villainous Finn.

[Vic Vega]

The way TLJ has come to be seen over the years has been interesting. Some people see it as a deeply subversive thing that requires study, these same people tell detractors that it's "a movie about space wizards for kids" that they take too seriously. Which is confusing. It's also an insult to kids, they aren't stupid.

I think Johnson got a bit of a swelled head, he subverted things just to do it. He isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

Eh. It's still the only movie of the three and the only movie of the entire MOVIE franchise that says anything new and interesting about The Force.

The books and comics and even games may say plenty but that stuff doesn't exist for the core audience that only pays attention to movie canon.

The idea that the Jedi and the Sith were both wrong about the Force all along at least explains why the prequel Jedi were such unlikeable Dbags as a group.

[MindofShadow]

Eh. It's still the only movie of the three and the only movie of the entire MOVIE franchise that says anything new and interesting about The Force.

The books and comics and even games may say plenty but that stuff doesn't exist for the core audience that only pays attention to movie canon.

The idea that the Jedi and the Sith were both wrong about the Force all along at least explains why the prequel Jedi were such unlikeable Dbags as a group.

The bits with Rey and Luke (and yoda luke) about the force and whatnot were interesting.

Not sure it was "good," but there were some interesting stuff in there.

The finn plot and poe plot bored me to tears.

[MindofShadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBa_aHwCbC4

Other than I do not understand why they need an original character who is essentially asian johnny cage and goodness Lewis Tan is wooden as hell and I hope he doesn't get too much focus, this trailer kinda lit. Gives me "good B movie" feelings lol.

interesting jax origin

but I swear spoilers:

if that was my man Reptile getting his heart ripped out by freaking Kano, I might cry

end of spoilers