Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[ed2962]

I can't recall that story

I can't remember the details, but I think it was during Matt Fraction's run. She was drawn to look like a black woman.

[numberthirty]

I can't remember the details, but I think it was during Matt Fraction's run. She was drawn to look like a black woman.

Rhodey Stark?

If so, it almost seems like she could have been part of one of those Hickman setups.

[CosmiComic]

I can't remember the details, but I think it was during Matt Fraction's run. She was drawn to look like a black woman.

I checked it and I think it's Rhodey Stark.

[G. Boney]

This is an odd idea, but has anyone noticed how white characters have children as legacy characters but PoC characters don't?

Both Ant-Men have daughters who are heroes (Wasp and Stature), Scarlet Witch and Vision have Wiccan and Speed, Thunderstrike (Eric) had Thunderstrike (Kevin), Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman have Franklin and Valeria, Cyke and Phoenix have Cable and Rachel, Wolverine has Daken and X-23, Spider-Man has Spider-Girl, Captain Marvel has Hulkling, Quicksilver and Crystal have Luna, etc. Vision also has Viv but they're not technically human.

Meanwhile none of the PoC legacy characters are children of older PoC heroes. Storm, Black Panther, Falcon, War Machine, Spectrum, Shang-Chi, Bishop, etc. have no "legacy children". What gives? I'm not saying younger heroes have to be related to older ones, in fact I prefer they don't, but why do only white heroes get to have children who become heroes?

Giving these heroes children is always a weird thing because the ages never make sense. I don't know the full back story of Wiccan and Speed, but how are they young adults? That many years hasn't passed within the marvel universe for them to be as old as they are. Franklin Richards isn't as old as them yet he's been around much longer lol. Is Superman's son still around? If so, he and Damion are going to run into that same comic book problem of eventually aging while the parent characters do not lol. I remember at the time thinking it was weird when Judd Winnick gave Black Lightning an adult daughter out of nowhere, though I grew to like the character (and her sister when she was later introduced).

Cable and Rachel are adults because of time travel and alternate timeline gobble-de-gook. Cyke also had another kid in another timeline, I think her name is Ruby? If we go into "possible future" stuff for non-white characters, then Black Panther has a son called Coal Tiger. That was from that marvel line of comics years back that featured Spider-Man's daughter as Spider-Girl.

[MindofShadow]

If it's any kind of consolation, it's not always a race thing. Some families just shut people out. Both of my parents are black, but my father's family wants nothing to do with me. I'm persona non grata to them and to this day I have no freaking clue why. Its difficult to have a relationship with someone when the other party just doesn't seem interested.

TBH, I don't really give it too much thought. Not worth my mental energy. Plus I moved 12 hours away from everything anyway

I only go home around the holidays and TBH, i'm rather distant unless I have to be. Wife's family fell into trumpville much to our dismay (although they hold it back when we are around bc my wife outright said we didn't drive 12 hours to listen to this ****) so I always have a side eye now.

but then i drive 12 hours back home and who really cares lol

[OopsIdiditagain]

Has anyone seen Jonathan Djob Nkondo's work? He's a great animation director:

[CosmiComic]

Giving these heroes children is always a weird thing because the ages never make sense. I don't know the full back story of Wiccan and Speed, but how are they young adults? That many years hasn't passed within the marvel universe for them to be as old as they are. Franklin Richards isn't as old as them yet he's been around much longer lol. Is Superman's son still around? If so, he and Damion are going to run into that same comic book problem of eventually aging while the parent characters do not lol. I remember at the time thinking it was weird when Judd Winnick gave Black Lightning an adult daughter out of nowhere, though I grew to like the character (and her sister when she was later introduced).

Cable and Rachel are adults because of time travel and alternate timeline gobble-de-gook. Cyke also had another kid in another timeline, I think her name is Ruby? If we go into "possible future" stuff for non-white characters, then Black Panther has a son called Coal Tiger. That was from that marvel line of comics years back that featured Spider-Man's daughter as Spider-Girl.

You're right. Maybe if they actually allowed the heroes to age, we'd be ok. Seriously, Spidey should at least be in 50s now. They need to make room for new characters tbh.

I think that line you're talking about is MC2, if I'm not mistaken.

[J. D. Guy]

I was worried I was the only one who thought that.

But you're right. I don't think legacy heroes should have to be related to their predecessors. I like the more egalitarian aspect of the millennial/gen z versions having separate origins. But if they are related why don't the PoC characters have legacies?

You're righr about PoC not being shown in normal family relationships. Couldn't any of the white heroes have PoC love interests? I mean, Scott Lang shows up as the new Ant-Man and already has a daughter, but Rhodey and Monica Rambeau don't, so the Ant-Man legacy is all white family while the more diverse Iron Man and Captain Marvel legacies aren't families.

That's not even getting into the extremely dated whitebread whiteness of the F4.

And none of the white heroes' legacies are mixed race

To be clear, I did not mean to imply I felt the way in bold; I am perfectly fine with legacy heroes who are progeny of their hero parents. In fact, I think it's a very cool concept that isn't actually done very often. (Not as often as it may seem, even when we account for the reality that most of the ones who do so are White.) I'm also okay with compositely constructed hero identities and completely original ones. But I'm indeed all for legacy mantles, including ones that are taken from/inherited from the parents/guardians. There is a sense of majesty regarding that that makes legacies in general appealing.


Otherwise, I agree with the insights (and their frustrating ramifications) from the rest of your post.

[J. D. Guy]

Giving these heroes children is always a weird thing because the ages never make sense. I don't know the full back story of Wiccan and Speed, but how are they young adults? That many years hasn't passed within the marvel universe for them to be as old as they are. Franklin Richards isn't as old as them yet he's been around much longer lol. Is Superman's son still around? If so, he and Damion are going to run into that same comic book problem of eventually aging while the parent characters do not lol. I remember at the time thinking it was weird when Judd Winnick gave Black Lightning an adult daughter out of nowhere, though I grew to like the character (and her sister when she was later introduced).

Cable and Rachel are adults because of time travel and alternate timeline gobble-de-gook. Cyke also had another kid in another timeline, I think her name is Ruby? If we go into "possible future" stuff for non-white characters, then Black Panther has a son called Coal Tiger. That was from that marvel line of comics years back that featured Spider-Man's daughter as Spider-Girl.

Dem's comic books for you sometimes.

Wiccan and Speed were pretty much reality-warped into existence, so they came into being as teenagers. Truth be told, them (specifically Wiccan, because Speed generally doesn't get anywhere close to the same page-time or focus) being able to grow into young adulthood and stuff is a blessing, compared to many of their peers who are stuck as teens because they're not getting any focus. When I think of the trio of Sam Alexander, Miles Morales, and Kamala Khan, I can see first hand how Miles and Kamala aging into their later teens because of popularity and story/spotlight focus has left Sam in the dust. Miles and Kamala are 17 now, yet Sam is still stuck at 15.

As for Franklin and Valeria Richards, that has to do with the politics of creation. They're still kids despite being here so long because as far as the creatives who've been working on Fantastic Four and who give a care about Franklin and Valeria, they only seem them as being worth something as young adolescents/pre-teens. They are stuck in their ages/grow much more slowly than their peers because of this compulsion to maintain a dynamic instead of evolving and progressing it. Franklin also had the whole thing with his powers, wherein he was kept young so they wouldn't have to make someone who had as much power as Franklin start becoming relevant in ways they didn't want to bother with. (He would logically need to become a household name, and some "What If?" stories and future Franklin stories explore that while otherwise remaining non-committal.) Granted, with Franklin having become vastly weaker, there really isn't a reason to keep him young. But they do.

And speaking of keeping them young for the sake of nostalgic preservation, the Power Pack is a real odd-ball example. Lightspeed/Julie has been the only one allowed to age and go off and do other things. The recent Future Foundation book that got egregiously cut aged up Alex into a young 20-something (and very heroically strapping) adult man who was leading the Future Foundation in earnest. Yet when the book got canned, the next time we see Alex was the newest Power Pack mini, and he was back to being an unduly short and scrawny teen again. Which means in the span of two series and very short amount of time (a small handful of months, at most), he had been retconned back into a "kid". All to preserve the nostalgia of how Power Pack started off. I found this pretty frustrating.

Damian Wayne is another odd example. He was aged to 13 to make him Teen Titans age, yet physically he still looks 10. And as for Jon Kent, events has led him to be aged up to his late mid-late teens (16-17). Personally, I can appreciate that, as I've been enjoying the stories this has allowed Jon to be a part of. Likewise, and while I do have enjoyment for the whole "Super Sons" dynamic, I can appreciate how this has allowed Jon to have adventures and stuff away from and outside of functioning as Damian's Morality Chain. Of course, Jon's case showcases the attitudes that has permitted Franklin and Valeria and the Power Pack to be stuck as kids/teens and even outright de-aged. I'm personally not for it, for a number of reasons, but so much of the vocal discourse around Jon calls for his de-aging.


Despite this, I wish more heroes had heroic kids, to be honest. (Biological or adopted/surrogate.)

[CosmiComic]

To be clear, I did not mean to imply I felt the way in bold; I am perfectly fine with legacy heroes who are progeny of their hero parents. In fact, I think it's a very cool concept that isn't actually done very often. (Not as often as it may seem, even when we account for the reality that most of the ones who do so are White.) I'm also okay with compositely constructed hero identities and completely original ones. But I'm indeed all for legacy mantles, including ones that are taken from/inherited from the parents/guardians. There is a sense of majesty regarding that that makes legacies in general appealing.


Otherwise, I agree with the insights (and their frustrating ramifications) from the rest of your post.

No problem. I prefer the legacy heroes not having to be related to their predecessors. It shows anyone can become a hero IMO. Plus with so many heroes being white, it gives a chance for PoC to take up these mantles.

But if white people get legacy children, then PoC should to. I mean, if the new Wasp or Wiccan gets to be related to old Ant-Man or Scarlet Witch, then Rhodey or Spectrum could've had a kid who carries the Iron Man or Captain Marvel mantle

[CosmiComic]

As for Franklin and Valeria Richards, that has to do with the politics of creation. Their still kids despite being here so long because as far as the creatives who've been working on Fantastic Four and who give a care about Franklin and Valeria, they only seem them as being worth something as young adolescents/pre-teens. They are stuck in their ages/grow much more slowly than their peers because of this compulsion to maintain a dynamic instead of evolving and progressing it. Franklin also had the whole thing with his powers, wherein he was kept young so they wouldn't have to make someone who had as much power as Franklin start becoming relevant in ways they didn't want to bother with. (He would logically need to become a household name, and some "What If?" stories and future Franklin stories explore that while otherwise remaining non-committal.) Granted, with Franklin having become vastly weaker, there really isn't a reason to keep him young. But they do.

Partially why I don't like F4. They're one all-white team who never evolves, unlike the X-Men or Avengers

You raise some pretty good points, by the way

[J. D. Guy]

No problem. I prefer the legacy heroes not having to be related to their predecessors. It shows anyone can become a hero IMO. Plus with so many heroes being white, it gives a chance for PoC to take up these mantles.

But if white people get legacy children, then PoC should to. I mean, if the new Wasp or Wiccan gets to be related to old Ant-Man or Scarlet Witch, then Rhodey or Spectrum could've had a kid who carries the Iron Man or Captain Marvel mantle

Oh, I am all for PoC legacies heroes of White Superhero (whether the legacy is related to their predecessor or not). In fact, many of the mainstream heroes I've fallen in love with are PoC legacy characters. For example, my interest of the Ghost Rider brand comes from Robbie Reyes specifically, as he introduced me to the wider Ghost Rider world through his own journey. Similarly, Sam Alexander for Nova, Samuel Chung for Daredevil (even if he has his own identity as Blindspot), Jackson Hyde/Kaldur'ahm for the Aquaman mythos are just a handful of examples of how PoC legacies have opened an otherwise "closed" or "gated" world for me. My interest in some of the older heroes stems from my love of the legacies they've introduced.

Partially why I don't like F4. They're one all-white team who never evolves, unlike the X-Men or Avengers

You raise some pretty good points, by the way

Thank you.


I've never really been too gung-ho about the Fantastic Four in general, myself. There are occasions where they peak my interest, but other than maybe Johnny Storm (who I feel is largely confined and limited whenever he's with the Fantastic Four; his time solo when the FF were in general limbo did wonders for his character as far as I'm concerned, and could have gone farther and harder then it did, even), I'm not super intrigued or fascinated by them.

[Ragged Maw]

Partially why I don't like F4. They're one all-white team who never evolves, unlike the X-Men or Avengers

That’s mostly because it’s STRONGLY associated with what amounts to a nuclear family (see: Black Lightning; Wakandan royal family; etc.) with only one member not being blood related. This kind of close-knit arrangement does indeed limit things. Fortunately, its much larger (in-universe) successor team, the Future Foundation has far more room for the “evolution” you speak of.

On that note, if the MCU is too afraid of making another F4, given the stigma of past failures the film license now carries, then maybe starting off the bat with a Future Foundation film with “the original four” established as its founders would be more prudent.

[CosmiComic]

Oh, I am all for PoC legacies heroes of White Superhero (whether the legacy is related to their predecessor or not). In fact, many of the mainstream heroes I've fallen in love with are PoC legacy characters. For example, my interest of the Ghost Rider brand comes from Robbie Reyes specifically, as he introduced me to the wider Ghost Rider world through his own journey. Similarly, Sam Alexander for Nova, Samuel Chung for Daredevil (even if he has his own identity as Blindspot), Jackson Hyde/Kaldur'ahm for the Aquaman mythos are just a handful of examples of how PoC legacies have opened an otherwise "closed" or "gated" world for me. My interest in some of the older heroes stems from my love of the legacies they've introduced.

That's an interesting take. I kinda look at the difference between Young Avengers and Champions. Because YA is largely legacy children of white heroes, it too was quite white. Whereas the Champions have legacy characters unrelated to their white predecessors so they can be quite diverse.

Thank you.


I've never really been too gung-ho about the Fantastic Four in general, myself. There are occasions where they peak my interest, but other than maybe Johnny Storm (who I feel is largely confined and limited whenever he's with the Fantastic Four; his time solo when the FF were in general limbo did wonders for his character as far as I'm concerned, and could have gone farther and harder then it did, even), I'm not super intrigued or fascinated by them.

No problem. I'm glad to see someone agree with me here. I could never understand the appeal of these characters

That’s mostly because it’s STRONGLY associated with what amounts to a nuclear family (see: Black Lightning; Wakandan royal family; etc.) with only one member not being blood related. This kind of close-knit arrangement does indeed limit things. Fortunately, its much larger (in-universe) successor team, the Future Foundation has far more room for the “evolution” you speak of.

On that note, if the MCU is too afraid of making another F4, given the stigma of past failures the film license now carries, then maybe starting off the bat with a Future Foundation film with “the original four” established as its founders would be more prudent.

Thing is, there are lots of problems with the concept of the nuclear family in the Anglo-American ideal the F4 is based on, and IMO that's reflected in how Reed treats Sue (another reason I don't like them)

Maybe Future Foundation is the way to go. An all-white mostly-male team in Phase 4 sounds antithetical to the promise of much needed diversity

[Ragged Maw]

That's an interesting take. I kinda look at the difference between Young Avengers and Champions. Because YA is largely legacy
Thing is, there are lots of problems with the concept of the nuclear family in the Anglo-American ideal the F4 is based on, and IMO that's reflected in how Reed treats Sue (another reason I don't like them)

Maybe Future Foundation is the way to go. An all-white mostly-male team in Phase 4 sounds antithetical to the promise of much needed diversity

Are you talking about the current F4 in the comics or the 70s version?