Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[ed2962]

Well all that old shit has some outdatedness to it. Thing about the FF is it's always gonna be more Gladys Knight and The Pipps than an episode of Seinfeld. They don't go without Reed and his brain, sure when it's time for a baddie to get thrown through a building and/or save a crowd of people they can do that but it all goes with Reed from the onset of the threat. The classic runs are predicated on the restrictiveness of the pieces. If you boil it all the way down to a 4 person concept, then of course that's not what we consider outdated but the distribution of the heavy lifting (beyond actual heavy lifting) of that group is where it's gonna get tough to for a general audience, 50 years removed from the onset to buy into.

If it's gonna get done then it's going to have to be in a period of time post the OG four and then you can insert whomever, hell franchise it out like The Boys and have FF chapters. You can't expect to fix much of the other issues of the group with a brotha as Mr. Fantastic imo.

It depends on how it's written. Reed is the brains and the leader, but Ben and Johnny were more popular with the fans and actually had solos. Reed might have been the one to pull out the deus ex machina on the last page, but Torch and Thing would get the exciting fight scenes and Ben got the best one-liners.

[ed2962]

I think in recent years (particularly Hickman's run) FF stories have been somewhat Reed-centric. Hickman's entire run started off with a Reed flashback.

A lot of FF stories weren't necessarily Reed-centric but they almost always ended with Reed figuring out what to do and more or less saving the day (not necessarily directly but through some other member of the team or some gadget).

Ben Grimm was a LOT more prominent in the FF books and in Marvel as a whole back in the 70s and 80s. He was actually one of their most popular characters then and he even had a solo book. Marvel really denigrated the FF and most of their non-mutant, non Spider-man characters when the 90s hit and it became "all X-men, all the time". Even to the point that Wolverine scarred Grimm's face for a good long while then, that's how low his profile had dropped.

This was also the time of Sue's "stripper" costume.

That's actually a good example of how not to update them. The trend was grim and gritty, so Marvel tried to turn them into fashionable bad-asses and that's just not going to work on every title. Heck, they even convinced Herb Trimpe ( 70's Hulk artist) to draw like Rob Liefeld!

[CosmiComic]

I think grim/gritty and corny/hokey aren't the only options though

I like the space adventure concept, but I think someone like Captain Marvel fits the concept more.

[Agent Z]

Then what would their characters be like?/s

Plus, Sue needs an actual personality.



I think that would actually be better than the F4 themselves in the MCU. That and maybe the Maker

Just to be clear, have you ever read an FF book past the 1970s? Because just about every issue you have has more or less been addressed. There was even an animated series on Cartoon Network in the 2000s that updated the characters and stories for modern audiences.

[CosmiComic]

Just to be clear, have you ever read an FF book past the 1970s? Because just about every issue you have has more or less been addressed. There was even an animated series on Cartoon Network in the 2000s that updated the characters and stories for modern audiences.

I've read some later stuff on and off, including Ultimate F4 and the latest was Empyre. It still feels the same to some extent

[Adam Allen]

I'm also a fan of the FF. Not like they are my absolute favoritest ever or anything, but I wouldn't say they're a dated concept that needs to go away, either. The Incredibles have already been mentioned, and they are obviously riffing on the family dynamic of FF pretty hard, and I think their success shows that dynamic can work pretty well with audiences. I think DC's Terrifics are also pretty obviously a riff on an FF dynamic, I guess updated with a POC as leader. I unfortunately didn't read the book, but glad to see Mr. Terrific getting the spotlight, and I think it's another indication the FF isn't just a dated concept that needs to go away.

I mean, fair enough if any given fan just doesn't vibe with the particular characters of Reed, Ben, Sue and Johnny, but then, not every team/book is going to be loved by everybody. Doesn't mean there's nothing good about them. You wouldn't have people riffing off them, if there wasn't.

[CosmiComic]

I don't think the concept of space explorers is dated. I just think the specific dynamic of the F4 is too old fashioned

[Vic Vega]

The Fantastic Four are supposed to be explorers first, super heroes second. Now thier first big exploration mission failed pretty epically (especially for the Thing) and yet they KEEP DOING IT.

If a writer can explain why, they can get the characters to work. Most would rather avoid the whole question outright and focus on the alien of the month. This was ok for the comics, Movie audiences might want more.Then you have to sell the audience of casuals on the exploration angle.

The other unique problem with the Fantastic Four, is at this point even if you wanted to make them more interesting by way of disfunction is that you've got Venture Bros. who did it years ago already. Also an evil FF were the big bads in an Warren Ellis book that I can't remember the name of right now,

Dysfunctional versions of the FF have been done to death in other media ( not in movies yet I admit). It doesn't take much to make the concept pretty dark.

You kinda have to hand wave hard to make Reed Richards NOT a Sociopath, as is.

[Adam Allen]

I don't think the concept of space explorers is dated. I just think the specific dynamic of the F4 is too old fashioned

Fair. Another thing I think hasn't been mentioned though, as far as the specific personalities/dynamic of the FF, and in my personal opinion, the biggest reason none of the FF movies have worked so great, so far ... besides the family-of-adventurers vibe, one of the biggest things the FF has going for it is that they are the arch enemies of what is arguably the greatest and most iconic supervillain of all, Dr. Doom. I can see how a comics-accurate Doom is pretty hard to translate to a different medium, so I understand why his concept would get tinkered with, trying to put him in a movie. The guy in the clunky armor, green tunic, and weird/unrealistic Iron Mask face ... who is both a scientific genius and a master sorceror, ruler of his own kingdom, with a tragic Romani backstory ... yeah, it's all a bit much.

Of course, Doom somehow ends up being awesome anyway, probably in some inexplicable way as much because he has all of that going on, as despite it. But I do think that part of the appeal of the FF is that they are collectively the thing that keeps Doom in check. Reed for being as smart, but I think one of the reasons the Maker works as a villain is that it's Reed, without the influence of the others to balance him out. I feel like part of the appeal of the FF is that ... you get these characters who get these different powers, and however impressive any of them might be individually, it's a great team and family because they together make for a greater whole ... something all of Doom's tech and magic and resources ultimately cannot defeat.

But yeah, you're right, it is both kind of hokey and kind of old-fashioned. Maybe just isn't for you, but if they can translate it right, I think it would find a decent movie-going audience.

I'd also say go ahead and include Franklin and Valeria at this point, though. Given they've already done the origin before, and everybody likely knows it anyway, maybe jump in with a story where they already have Franklin, and do an origin story for Valeria, starting with the older, alternate Valeria Von Doom version, and ending up with the Valeria Richards version. This would also play strongly with the frenemy vibe the FF has with Doom.

[CosmiComic]

The Fantastic Four are supposed to be explorers first, super heroes second. Now thier first big exploration mission failed pretty epically (especially for the Thing) and yet they KEEP DOING IT.

If a writer can explain why, they can get the characters to work. Most would rather avoid the whole question outright and focus on the alien of the month. This was ok for the comics, Movie audiences might want more.Then you have to sell the audience of casuals on the exploration angle.

The other unique problem with the Fantastic Four, is at this point even if you wanted to make them more interesting by way of disfunction is that you've got Venture Bros. who did it years ago already. Also an evil FF were the big bads in an Warren Ellis book that I can't remember the name of right now,

Dysfunctional versions of the FF have been done to death in other media ( not in movies yet I admit). It doesn't take much to make the concept pretty dark.

You kinda have to hand wave hard to make Reed Richards NOT a Sociopath, as is.

Therein lies the difficulty. Although I don't think being an explorer and a super hero are mutually exclusive titles. I think other superheroes could do well with stories not purely about fighting villains.

Fair. Another thing I think hasn't been mentioned though, as far as the specific personalities/dynamic of the FF, and in my personal opinion, the biggest reason none of the FF movies have worked so great, so far ... besides the family-of-adventurers vibe, one of the biggest things the FF has going for it is that they are the arch enemies of what is arguably the greatest and most iconic supervillain of all, Dr. Doom. I can see how a comics-accurate Doom is pretty hard to translate to a different medium, so I understand why his concept would get tinkered with, trying to put him in a movie. The guy in the clunky armor, green tunic, and weird/unrealistic Iron Mask face ... who is both a scientific genius and a master sorceror, ruler of his own kingdom, with a tragic Romani backstory ... yeah, it's all a bit much.

Of course, Doom somehow ends up being awesome anyway, probably in some inexplicable way as much because he has all of that going on, as despite it. But I do think that part of the appeal of the FF is that they are collectively the thing that keeps Doom in check. Reed for being as smart, but I think one of the reasons the Maker works as a villain is that it's Reed, without the influence of the others to balance him out. I feel like part of the appeal of the FF is that ... you get these characters who get these different powers, and however impressive any of them might be individually, it's a great team and family because they together make for a greater whole ... something all of Doom's tech and magic and resources ultimately cannot defeat.

But yeah, you're right, it is both kind of hokey and kind of old-fashioned. Maybe just isn't for you, but if they can translate it right, I think it would find a decent movie-going audience.

I'd also say go ahead and include Franklin and Valeria at this point, though. Given they've already done the origin before, and everybody likely knows it anyway, maybe jump in with a story where they already have Franklin, and do an origin story for Valeria, starting with the older, alternate Valeria Von Doom version, and ending up with the Valeria Richards version. This would also play strongly with the frenemy vibe the FF has with Doom.

I think the problem is the family dynamic only works in Reed's favor, and the idea of the rest of them being on the team to keep him from being a villain, especially Sue, his wife, is problematic at best. Plus he always looked way too old for her. And the squabbling makes them look a bit petty.

As for Doom, I like him but he's a bit over the top, so I can see why being adapted isn't easy. And frankly, I think even comic Doom needs to reign it in at times. He's complex but he feels a bit like he's trying to be too many things.

I'd skip to Franklin and Valeria in the MCU as well. Frankly they should already be adults in the comics by now, or at least Franklin. It helps keep the team a bit more fresh rather than static and stale. And I harp on this a lot but considering the subject of this thread, this all White team doesn't help diversity that much. Compare them to Avengers, X-Men or even Spider-Man, who've become much more diverse yet still have far to go. what good would F4 do in that regard?

[Adam Allen]

Therein lies the difficulty. Although I don't think being an explorer and a super hero are mutually exclusive titles. I think other superheroes could do well with stories not purely about fighting villains.



I think the problem is the family dynamic only works in Reed's favor, and the idea of the rest of them being on the team to keep him from being a villain, especially Sue, his wife, is problematic at best. Plus he always looked way too old for her. And the squabbling makes them look a bit petty.

As for Doom, I like him but he's a bit over the top, so I can see why being adapted isn't easy. And frankly, I think even comic Doom needs to reign it in at times. He's complex but he feels a bit like he's trying to be too many things.

I'd skip to Franklin and Valeria in the MCU as well. Frankly they should already be adults in the comics by now, or at least Franklin. It helps keep the team a bit more fresh rather than static and stale. And I harp on this a lot but considering the subject of this thread, this all White team doesn't help diversity that much. Compare them to Avengers, X-Men or even Spider-Man, who've become much more diverse yet still have far to go. what good would F4 do in that regard?

I don't think it's true, to same the team dynamic only works in Reed's favor. Okay, true enough that Ben's powers made him kind of a monster, but that's just pathos for his character -- his being a Thing aside, they all got fantastic powers out of the deal, they get to be superheroes and adventurers, and get to be part of what keeps a megalomaniac genius with major issues from taking over the world. Being one of the FF is not a bad gig overall, compared to being just a regular schlub, and there would be no FF if not for Reed, so ... yeah, not like he only benefits from them, but they don't benefit at all, from him.

And I feel you about it being kind of problematic, if they are all that keeps him from being a villain, but in that respect, I kind of feel like that's part of what makes it true to life, about family. None of us is perfect, and hopefully our family is what helps keep us grounded, and makes us a better person. That's what family should be, at least. And it definitely depends on good writing, but part of the deal should be that you can see why Sue loves him, and why Ben is his best friend ... in that way, showing how a character who could be a dick isn't, because these clearly good people would not care for him, if he were.

Their being all white ... well, I guess that's why they already added some diversity in the one film, by making Sue adopted, and I guess are looking to cast a black Reed, for the next film. I don't know, though ... yeah, this is the diversity thread, but just gonna say, I don't personally care if the FF are an all white team. I'm not necessarily against racebending, either. Much as I didn't watch it, due to the universally bad reviews, I think casting Michael B. Jordan as Johnny was a solid call. I probably would have just made Sue black, as well, and let Reed and Sue be an interracial couple ... but then, respect for trying to represent adoptive families, too. Anyway, even in the comics, isn't Ben Grimm Jewish? That's a little diversity ... but overall, I don't feel like everything needs to necessarily carry the largest flag of diversity. The FF are a white family in the comics. Let the Avengers and X-Men and even Miles represent a more diverse population ... it's not like we have to pretend white families don't exist, anymore. I mean, they do.

Anyway, if I wasn't clear, I'm all about seeing movies going forward just totally owning how over the top Doom is. I mean, again, dude is pretty much your textbook illustration of a supervillain. I think the right way to go for an FF movie is to own that. He is cartoonish and just totally overblown in every way possible -- he's the human version of Mojo Jojo and The Brain, and it's a little bit ridiculous to try to portray a real human being that way, but that's the line to toe, if you're going to do Dr. Doom right, so I say, go for it! I mean, the movies have done the Red Skull and Thanos, and they are no less cartoonish, really. And the MCU movies with their approximately comics-accurate costumes are way better than the X-Men's black leather look, so -- yeah, don't be ashamed of the source material. It's overly dramatic and kinda hokey, but it has resonated for decades and several generations of fans anyway, so trust in that. We can handle a little silliness, in our stories about superheroes and supervillains. It's just part of the deal, really.

[MindofShadow]

You fix the "outdated' issue by pulling from the Ultimate Universe, like the MCU does constantly.

You probably fix the "complicated Doom issue" by simply throwing out is Romani ancestry part, make him royalty from Latveria, which is how he gets on Reeds team in the youngin days bc strings were pulled. He's a genius, ut not on Reed's level, which starts the conflict between them.

After the accident that scars him, he flees back to Latveria in shame (the once most eligible bachelor top 10 hottest scarred) and he starts dabbling in ways to heal (similar to dr strange) which leads him down the path of sorcery.

Adopts the Doom handle, takes the throne from his father by force, becaomes the Doom you know with the same hatred of Reed.

This thing is, you don't do it all in a F4 movie. Hell, you don't even have to show the "college years" time. Just allude to it or touch on it in a flashback. We don't need the rehash again.

Doom has evolved past the F4 villain wise. He is a "universal" threat now. Doesn't mean he can't be introduced in the F4 movie but he shouldn't be the main villain. He is too big.

Mole Men prolly fit better as the villain

[CosmiComic]

I don't think it's true, to same the team dynamic only works in Reed's favor. Okay, true enough that Ben's powers made him kind of a monster, but that's just pathos for his character -- his being a Thing aside, they all got fantastic powers out of the deal, they get to be superheroes and adventurers, and get to be part of what keeps a megalomaniac genius with major issues from taking over the world. Being one of the FF is not a bad gig overall, compared to being just a regular schlub, and there would be no FF if not for Reed, so ... yeah, not like he only benefits from them, but they don't benefit at all, from him.

And I feel you about it being kind of problematic, if they are all that keeps him from being a villain, but in that respect, I kind of feel like that's part of what makes it true to life, about family. None of us is perfect, and hopefully our family is what helps keep us grounded, and makes us a better person. That's what family should be, at least. And it definitely depends on good writing, but part of the deal should be that you can see why Sue loves him, and why Ben is his best friend ... in that way, showing how a character who could be a dick isn't, because these clearly good people would not care for him, if he were.

But I can never see why Sue loves Reed. He's inattentive and emotionally distant at best. And while no one is perfect, family shouldn't be about restraining someone from being an outright sociopath. That's potentially abusive and media in general already has problems condoning problematic relationships.

Their being all white ... well, I guess that's why they already added some diversity in the one film, by making Sue adopted, and I guess are looking to cast a black Reed, for the next film. I don't know, though ... yeah, this is the diversity thread, but just gonna say, I don't personally care if the FF are an all white team. I'm not necessarily against racebending, either. Much as I didn't watch it, due to the universally bad reviews, I think casting Michael B. Jordan as Johnny was a solid call. I probably would have just made Sue black, as well, and let Reed and Sue be an interracial couple ... but then, respect for trying to represent adoptive families, too. Anyway, even in the comics, isn't Ben Grimm Jewish? That's a little diversity ... but overall, I don't feel like everything needs to necessarily carry the largest flag of diversity. The FF are a white family in the comics. Let the Avengers and X-Men and even Miles represent a more diverse population ... it's not like we have to pretend white families don't exist, anymore. I mean, they do.

White heroes, couples and families are already overrepresented in comics. We barely see many PoC and interracial couples. White people in media aren't endangered so Idk what's to be gained by keeping around an all White team with problematic family dynamics. Especially when they're promoted as the only stable family in Marvel. All the other groups at least give the option of adding or changing members to diversify. And maybe I'd be ok with this team if I thought it was interesting, but outside of Ben Grimm to some extent, I don't

Anyway, if I wasn't clear, I'm all about seeing movies going forward just totally owning how over the top Doom is. I mean, again, dude is pretty much your textbook illustration of a supervillain. I think the right way to go for an FF movie is to own that. He is cartoonish and just totally overblown in every way possible -- he's the human version of Mojo Jojo and The Brain, and it's a little bit ridiculous to try to portray a real human being that way, but that's the line to toe, if you're going to do Dr. Doom right, so I say, go for it! I mean, the movies have done the Red Skull and Thanos, and they are no less cartoonish, really. And the MCU movies with their approximately comics-accurate costumes are way better than the X-Men's black leather look, so -- yeah, don't be ashamed of the source material. It's overly dramatic and kinda hokey, but it has resonated for decades and several generations of fans anyway, so trust in that. We can handle a little silliness, in our stories about superheroes and supervillains. It's just part of the deal, really.

I don't mind silliness, but I don't want the movies to just become all about Doom, and how powerful he is. And I don't want too much to be squeezed in all at once.

[Adam Allen]

Honestly, I'd be fine if they just gave up on trying to make an FF movie. I do like the characters well enough, I do not consider them boring or their dynamics inherently problematic, but I would also be completely fine with another movie attempt never being made. Not every comics character necessarily needs to be translated to movies, no matter how popular they are or how long they've been around. Just my opinion though, and I suppose the dreams of raking in those Avengers-level amounts of box office cash is why they'll keep trying.

[CosmiComic]

Honestly, I'd be fine if they just gave up on trying to make an FF movie. I do like the characters well enough, I do not consider them boring or their dynamics inherently problematic, but I would also be completely fine with another movie attempt never being made. Not every comics character necessarily needs to be translated to movies, no matter how popular they are or how long they've been around. Just my opinion though, and I suppose the dreams of raking in those Avengers-level amounts of box office cash is why they'll keep trying.

I don't think F4 will ever rake in Avengers levels of money, especially with how many newer Avengers are coming into the MCU

As you can probably tell, I'd be fine it they never show up either.