Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[ed2962]

Does "leading man" still exist in the same way?

Not in the way they did a generation ago, in the sense that a certain actor's name could guarantee sales. There's maybe a small handful that that still holds true for. Will Smith, Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks, maybe Leo DiCaprio...

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

MCU doesn't own Silk. And is "genius asian kid" really that different of a stereotype (cho)

The East Asian options at Marvel are SLIM.

Shang is cool. Y'all are trippin. I don't care about avoiding stereotypes, Shang deserves a solo movie. There hasn't been an MCU kung fu movie either. Give me some kung fu + comic book crap and inject it in my veins.

To me, Amadeus does a better job subverting his stereotype than Shang does. But I've wasn't a Shang-Chi fan till Pak and Yang wrote him so I have a bias.

I'm not saying he shouldn't get a movie. I'm just saying why some Asian fans are skeptical of him. But the MCU could win us over.

[Vic Vega]

eh, they are selling Shang in the US as an MCU movie. They aren't selling it as an Asian movie. It is MCU meets Kung Fu. They are counting on the brand just like they did with all the other "new" heroes.

I agree with PwrdOn overall point that you can't sell an "asian" movie to Asia and not have it be authentic. Disney doesn't seem to understand that after Mulan it seems. You also can't go into a place known for Martial Arts/Kung Fu movies and make an inferior product and expect it to sell well (Mulan). If hte choreography isn't up to China's standards, they wont like it.

... which is probably why they have a dragon in the movie, ten rings, abomination and such lol. They are trying to not make it a pure "kung fu" movie because they can't win over there with that.

It is all moot anyway, because of covid, it isn't making any money at all overseas anyway. It is 100% gonna bomb

HK/China has it's own Stars and Star Directors.

Throwing in one or two names they recognize won't win that audience over. They would have to make a movie for that market then cross market it here, like the Ip Man movies.

In other words the exact opposite of what Disney did with Mulan.

But yeah, clearly Shang Chi is for the American/International Market(you wouldn't put Awkafina in a commercial aimed at the Chinese Market, they don't care about her), they are trying to get extra buy in from the Chinese market.

[Agent Z]

I hope they don't do too much dad rock. The MCU is already over the top with it.

Anyway, I share your sentiment. I'd like more Asian-descended heroes in general, and not just be martial artists. But I think, as others have pointed out, this isn't purely a martial arts movie, and the crew seem to be somewhat aware of the problematic history of the main characters of this movie from the comics, so I think they'll at least do an ok job. And I presume he will join the Avengers at some point. At least, I hope so.

Marvel needs more Asian-descended heroes overall, but some of the recent ones, like Amadeus Cho and Silk, aren't martial artists and could get adapted at some point. Silk is already getting a tv show. I can't see someone like Jubilee being a main lead, though. What's she going to do? Sparkle and wear a stupid costume?

While training in Generation X, Emma Frost described Jubilee as having the untapped ability to detonate matter at a subatomic level, which in theory is the equivalent of a nuclear fusion bomb.[76] Her moral stance on taking a life was observed by Emma during the Phalanx Covenant, when Jubilee explained her fear of killing someone should her powers ever flare up again, as they did during the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Uncanny X-Men (she destroyed the Mandarin's mansion in a massive explosion, out of grief after believing that Wolverine had been killed).[77] Emma stated that Jubilee had unlimited potential and was one of the most powerful mutants she had ever encountered. Jubilee's Age of Apocalypse alternate had few qualms about using her powers, and made liberal use of her full ability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubile...#Mutant_powers

[MindofShadow]

a mutant and having untapped unlimited potential, name a more iconic duo lol

[Agent Z]

The point is that people had plenty of valid reasons for not wanting to watch Shang-Chi, and making it out to be a bunch of wacky foreigners who can't handle a movie star not looking like a plastic pop idol is just resorting to caricatures to gloss over the poor decisions of a movie studio failing to understand its intended audience. Both Crazy Rich Asians and Mulan flopped in the Asian market for much of the same reasons. As it turns out, trying to sell people a watered down version of their own culture and then blaming them when it doesn't do well isn't really a good way to go about it.

Shang Chi isn't targeted at just China.

And yeah, it does suck for Simu Liu, especially since this is his first major role and his career is kind of hinging on this movie doing well, that he probably will just go down as the guy who was seen as too ugly to play a superhero, but someone who has chosen an acting career should be prepared for this sort of thing. Let's not pretend like it's only those wacky Asian people who care more about how movie stars look than how well they can act or how well they fit the role, it's just that our culture has this strange taboo against commenting on men's looks that isn't really found elsewhere. If they had cast an average looking dude off the street as Captain America, maybe people wouldn't be all over Twitter complaining about how the guy isn't handsome enough to play Cap, but they would for sure be thinking that and would find ways to express the same idea without saying it in so many words.

Again, no one here is under any delusion in regards to Hollywood's issues when it comes to people's looks or how fans react to that. Pointing out that China is the same way is not letting the western filmmakers off the hook. None of these erase the fact that the backlash towards Liu is completely unjustified. If it is about his looks, it's a stupid reason to dislike him. If it is because he is an unknown, most of the MCU actors were either unknowns or washed-up has-beens, so that's holding him to an unfair standard.

[Agent Z]

a mutant and having untapped unlimited potential, name a more iconic duo lol

Well, a theoretical movie wouldn't have to stop at untapped potential.

[PwrdOn]

HK/China has it's own Stars and Star Directors.

Throwing in one or two names they recognize won't win that audience over. They would have to make a movie for that market then cross market it here, like the Ip Man movies.

In other words the exact opposite of what Disney did with Mulan.

But yeah, clearly Shang Chi is for the American/International Market(you wouldn't put Awkafina in a commercial aimed at the Chinese Market, they don't care about her), they are trying to get extra buy in from the Chinese market.

Endgame made $629 million in China while featuring a grand total of zero Chinese actors. If even Ant-Man can make $100 million over there, and Shang-Chi can't even get a release date, clearly they're doing something wrong here.

Shang Chi isn't targeted at just China.

Again, no one here is under any delusion in regards to Hollywood's issues when it comes to people's looks or how fans react to that. Pointing out that China is the same way is not letting the western filmmakers off the hook. None of these erase the fact that the backlash towards Liu is completely unjustified. If it is about his looks, it's a stupid reason to dislike him. If it is because he is an unknown, most of the MCU actors were either unknowns or washed-up has-beens, so that's holding him to an unfair standard.

Like I said before, if there were any kind of significant non-Asian audience clamoring for more Chinese leading men in films, then there wouldn't be an issue of underrepresentation to begin with. And refusing to watch a movie because you don't think the lead actor has the right look is a perfectly valid response, film is a visual medium and looks have always mattered more for actors than any purist thespian would be willing to admit. It's just that in America we force ourselves to express these ideas with euphemisms, like talking about an actor's screen presence, charisma, or star quality, but what movie stars can be said to have all of those attributes without having the right look?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Jubilee's powers are essentially mini explosions so I'm sure you could do something cool with that. If not she's had other powersets from different timelines so you could always just pick one of those. She was a vampire so you could always put her in Blade. .

[CosmiComic]

Jem and the Holograms say hi ( 80's version, not that movies from a few years ago).

I never saw that. But I don't like 80s cartoons in general

Not in the way they did a generation ago, in the sense that a certain actor's name could guarantee sales. There's maybe a small handful that that still holds true for. Will Smith, Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks, maybe Leo DiCaprio...

That's what I thought. Maybe the lines between the different types of actors are being blurred

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubile...#Mutant_powers

I know she has potential power. I was semi-joking there. But is she interesting as a personality? And why exactly does she wear that ridiculous outfit?

Endgame made $629 million in China while featuring a grand total of zero Chinese actors. If even Ant-Man can make $100 million over there, and Shang-Chi can't even get a release date, clearly they're doing something wrong here.



Like I said before, if there were any kind of significant non-Asian audience clamoring for more Chinese leading men in films, then there wouldn't be an issue of underrepresentation to begin with. And refusing to watch a movie because you don't think the lead actor has the right look is a perfectly valid response, film is a visual medium and looks have always mattered more for actors than any purist thespian would be willing to admit. It's just that in America we force ourselves to express these ideas with euphemisms, like talking about an actor's screen presence, charisma, or star quality, but what movie stars can be said to have all of those attributes without having the right look?

I was kinda with you until the last point. Rejecting a movie because of the actors' looks is not valid IMO, Otherwise, that would excuse racism

[Ragged Maw]

“I do wish they'd choose a non-martial arts/mystic type of character for an Asian lead”

Amadeus Cho. First movie can be his big solo outing. Second movie can feature Heracles. There. Done.

[MindofShadow]

“I do wish they'd choose a non-martial arts/mystic type of character for an Asian lead”

Amadeus Cho. First movie can be his big solo outing. Second movie can feature Heracles. There. Done.

ooo instead of an asian martial artist, it is a kid Asian genius. Maybe they can make it doubly unique by having academically harsh parents make him play chess or something.

Marvel has just about zero non stereotypical asian heroes that aren't mutants.


The Shang-Chi slander is weird in here. Should they ban Luke Cage from the MCU because he is a walking black stereotype?

The chose Shang-Chi because he is the most popular East Asian character and martial arts movies are cool. Just like they picked Black Panther becasue he is the most popular black character. They built the movie from the US market and hoped China would jump on board because they generally jump on board for big USA movies. But with covid, that might not happen. Its gonna bomb not because of China but becasue of Covid.

[CosmiComic]

“I do wish they'd choose a non-martial arts/mystic type of character for an Asian lead”

Amadeus Cho. First movie can be his big solo outing. Second movie can feature Heracles. There. Done.

Where would he show up first in the MCU?

ooo instead of an asian martial artist, it is a kid Asian genius. Maybe they can make it doubly unique by having academically harsh parents make him play chess or something.

Marvel has just about zero non stereotypical asian heroes that aren't mutants.


The Shang-Chi slander is weird in here. Should they ban Luke Cage from the MCU because he is a walking black stereotype?

The chose Shang-Chi because he is the most popular East Asian character and martial arts movies are cool. Just like they picked Black Panther becasue he is the most popular black character. They built the movie from the US market and hoped China would jump on board because they generally jump on board for big USA movies. But with covid, that might not happen. Its gonna bomb not because of China but becasue of Covid.

Does Luke Cage still count as a stereotype anymore?

Also, I wouldn't say Silk is a stereotype, but she's with sony

[Adam Allen]

I know she has potential power. I was semi-joking there. But is she interesting as a personality? And why exactly does she wear that ridiculous outfit?

It truly is weird that some version of her iconic look has endured all this time. The kind of hilarious part about it is that I feel absolutely sure the outfit was meant to be a one-off joke.

You know, she was introduced during a storyline where the X-Men had been separated after their stint hiding in Australia, and after helping Wolverine escape being tortured by Reavers, she helps him heal up and becomes his "sidekick" as he finds and rescues newly-ninjafied Psylocke and I think they all start looking for the rest together. Anyway, I think it was just after they got Psylocke that she first appeared in the outfit -- just after or just before, anyway -- and the joke of it was kind of lost in time, because with her being the Robin to Wolverine's Batman, her yellow-trenchcoat and shorts look was a pretty obvious way of poking fun at the traditional yellow cape/green trunks Robin costume, which everyone had already come to agree looked pretty ridiculous, by that point.

The joke got lost somewhat though because over in DC, Tim Drake was introduced not long after Jubilee had popped up in Marvel, and of course for Tim, they'd designed and updated, more badass-looking version of the Robin costume, which has pretty much been the basis for Robin's look, ever since. So yah, her original look was one of those inter-company rivalry things that was kind of funny at the time, but made an obsolete joke almost immediately, by Robin's costume no longer looking like that.

As for why she still has remnants of that outfit, today -- I don't know, because people recognize it, I guess? Why does Luke Cage wear a yellow t-shirt?

Anyway, random comics trivia!

(Edit: Honestly, when I google "Robin original costume" and "Jubilee original costume", I still think it was pretty funny, for a passing visual joke. Just no way of knowing what's going to stick with any given character, though.)

[Surf]

But yeah, clearly Shang Chi is for the American/International Market(you wouldn't put Awkafina in a commercial aimed at the Chinese Market, they don't care about her), they are trying to get extra buy in from the Chinese market.

I've made it a point to anybody who'll listen, which boils down to a 5 year old and a 7 year old, that I'm in for Shang-Chi despite Awkafina.