Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Surf]

To get back on topic a touch...


Is the black chick playing the Inquistor in Obi-Wan really a mediocre actress or is this SW fans picking on minorities again?

Oof, always the latter, always but unfortunately a fair share of the former. Maybe, hope beyond hope, this is setting up a glimpse into The Empire on a level we've never seen? Her backstory has gotta be softer, and this is prolly asking a lot for character and of these D+ shows in general.

I was literally about to post about that.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/star...-moses-ingram/

She's been getting a ton of hate, a lot of it racist as expected. But that's not surprising considering what's been happening in geek fandom in recent years.

Although I must say that her character (Reva) isn't particularly well written or well-thought out. The character's depiction is rather grating and frankly could have been a lot more subtle.

1000%, and well there is some precident in that The Empire do undercut each other up the chain but still. Her one saving grace is she knows how to handle a lightsaber more than most fwiw.

[Overhazard]

I tend to think there’s too types of racism at play in attacking modern Star Wars - one is a largely impotent and insecure segment of social media blatantly being racist as loud as possible but having no impact on its own, and the other being a quieter, more insidious institutional racism that occasionally crops up within LFL and genuinely hurts the profit margins just as much as the talent. The second group can open up unfortunate avenues of attack for the first group, which will then try to define the hurt profit margins as coming from diversity rather than institutional racism, and can unfortunately help “cover up” the second group’s issues with their more vocal racism, and obscure overall how much the actual execution and directing of the characters and story might be its own problem.

Like, clearly, Disney LFL has realized that most of the jackasses who will holler the most racism aren’t actually impacting the bottom line - for all the invective they threw at The Force Awakens, it’s still the second most profitable Star Wars movie of all time, and it’s notable that Rogue One, The Mandalorian, and The Book of Boba Fett are their most successful products in the long run and don’t actually have WASP male leads anywhere among the heroes.

But… it’s also notable that they greenlit some blatantly prejudiced choices with The Last Jedi and Solo, that there’s some questionable design choices bordering on “white washing” that can creep into some of their cartoons. And while the cartoon art department does seem to have enough humility to admit some of their mistakes, Disney LFL seems willing to totally back up the racism and sexism of The Last Jedi and die on that hill rather than admit a mistake, even going so far as to implicitly sabotage some elements of The Rise of Skywalker to avoid uncomfortable diversity on their part.

Like, they’ll offer some (occasionally tepid and strictly nominal) support to their actresses and actors, but they still seem personally affronted by the fact that John Boyega was a better male lead who had better chemistry with Daisy Ridley than Adam Driver, and hate Finn because of it while still pimping out Rey in a sexist way towards Kylo.

I was soured on Finn since TFA, and when I expressed that on The Mary Sue, I was gaslit into oblivion by a legion of white feminists who were telling me that Finn being an incompetent loser was okay because he "subverted stereotypes of black male characters" I bet Coates liked Finn. They called him a cinnamon roll and weirdly infantilized him. He was their soft little baby who needed to be protected from Kylo, who they loved, even though he was an incel with superpowers.

[godisawesome]

Oh they don't care about the loud ones at all lol.

The loud ones WATCH THE SHOW and then get on social media and start loudly complaining everywhere, making YT videos, which leads to articles on bigger websites... aka it is all free advertising.

The subtle institutionalized racism is always the worst. The systemic shit that moves in silence. The stuff you can't outright prove but feel.

The problem with systemic stuff is you *can* prove it… but it obfuscates who is actually being motivated by it, or who’s a bystander to it, or motivated by other factors that just happen to align with it, so you can’t always lay responsibility down at somebody’s feet.

Like, Rian Johnson wrote and directed The Last Jedi - which means he conceived and executed the story’s denigration and dismissal of that larger inclusion and representation by Boyega and Ridely in exchange for blatantly privileged and prejudiced focus on Hamill and Driver… but since it was expressed in more systemic manners, he can hid behind ambiguity as to whether racism and sexism motivated him, or whether he just had pretentious taste with a lot poor understanding and empathy. And that ambiguity encourages people who liked The Last Jedi to defend him much more confidently, especially when he has other films like Knives Out to stand beside (though I’d argue there’s some questionable aspects to it as well, they’re minor.)

She is a bad character that is not well written. There is some racists out there that hate her character for being black. But to say that is the only reason she is getting hate is not true. Reva is just a bad character.

Not the Fault of the actress. Just bad writing.

While I disagree on the evaluation of the character (since I kind of like her), you’ve perfectly pointed out that the majority of problems people have with the character actually don’t fall on the actor, and especially not on her skin tone… which is where we can see racist agitators trying very hard to define everything by race or sex, so that they can infer those are what matter, rather than stuff that can plague other actors - the writing and directing.

Like, Rubert Friend isn’t quite as good as Jason Isaacs, and the make-up job for the Grand Inquisitor is pretty poor compared to what it could be, while he’s clearly being written in more of a “supporting villain” role even though he’s supposed to be the boss of the Inquistors… but those are mostly aspects outside of his control, and commentators recognize them.

Ingram is clearly playing a character purpose written for this show, and seems to be suffering in some audience members’ eyes with the production’s weaknesses compared to the standard set by The Mandalorian… and the racist want to try defining her skin tone as the cause, rather than the production’s issues.

[Agent Z]

I was soured on Finn since TFA, and when I expressed that on The Mary Sue, I was gaslit into oblivion by a legion of white feminists who were telling me that Finn being an incompetent loser was okay because he "subverted stereotypes of black male characters" I bet Coates liked Finn. They called him a cinnamon roll and weirdly infantilized him. He was their soft little baby who needed to be protected from Kylo, who they loved, even though he was an incel with superpowers.

Finn reminds me of Cassandra Cain in some ways: A minority character who walks the line between being progressive and regressive depending on who is writing him. When he's the former he's great, but when he becomes the latter any good aspects can be very easily overshadowed. Even his arc about learning to care for other slaves isn't a bad one in theory, but the execution could have been better.

[godisawesome]

I was soured on Finn since TFA, and when I expressed that on The Mary Sue, I was gaslit into oblivion by a legion of white feminists who were telling me that Finn being an incompetent loser was okay because he "subverted stereotypes of black male characters" I bet Coates liked Finn. They called him a cinnamon roll and weirdly infantilized him. He was their soft little baby who needed to be protected from Kylo, who they loved, even though he was an incel with superpowers.

Finn reminds me of Cassandra Cain in some ways: A minority character who walks the line between being progressive and regressive depending on who is writing him. When he's the former he's great, but when he becomes the latter any good aspects can be very easily overshadowed. Even his arc about learning to care for other slaves isn't a bad one in theory, but the execution could have been better.

I’m an *extremely* white dude, so I can’t pretend that I can certify when Finn might not hav been written with racist connotations - I know better than to try arguing everything was copacetic in TFA, and I specifically can see why stuff like him not getting any major one-on-one wins, even against TR-8R, was problematic, as was him drinking for the animal trough.

But I *do* feel I can correctly identify that his situation and portrayal got immeasurably worse from TLJ on, and I do trust Boyega himself enough to agree that it was a problem that was fueled more by Johnson and LFL’s bias against him than Abrams. While Abrams still deserves some side eye for some choices in both TFA and TROS regarding race, Boyega clearly has his back at least in regards to his own treatment and on some of the other BTS issues that were exposed in the narrative… and some of those issues come from very weird places.

Like, Kelly Marie Tran clearly got a lot of racist shit thrown her way for playing Rose, and yeah, it sucks that her character got shortchanged in TROS… but on some level, the character itself, regardless of her actress’s ethnicity, was designed to help demote and denigrate Finn, which was why she was conceptually boring character laboring to exposit the retcons and messages Rian Johnson wanted the audience to accept regarding Finn.

The problem is that, for all the little bits and pieces of questionable decisions regarding Finn in TFA, when the film was done, Finn was the ST’s Han Solo - a popular-in-the-real-world, heroic regular dude capable of drama and humor and clearly positioned as at least “romantic interest-adjacent” if not as an actual romantic interest. And Finn in TFA was the lynchpin for the plot and all the major victories of the film…

… and the next film insisted those actions didn’t matter, that he wasn’t a selfless friend and hero but “obsessed with Rey,” and that a sad, selfish old white guy doing a five minute illusion to save 12 people (while someone else does the heavy lifting) was more inspiring, and that a Neo Nazi School Shooter who violated the main female character made a better romantic interest for her.

And LFL’ earned some more side eye with how it’s implicit they ordered Abrams to remove any scenes between just Rey and Finn and conceal Finn had the Force from the final cut of TROS, possibly for the same reasons they might have ordered Rey kiss Ben Solo in the film.

[Lord Morph]

What's happening with Reva makes a good case for why it's not a bad idea to drop all episodes at once in certain cases. Clear the character has a journey that has yet to be realized.

Let's also not act like Star Wars has had Academy Award winning performances and writing throughout it's existence. "No No No....YOU will die" *facepalm*

[4sake Baned]

I’m an *extremely* white dude, so I can’t pretend that I can certify when Finn might not hav been written with racist connotations - I know better than to try arguing everything was copacetic in TFA, and I specifically can see why stuff like him not getting any major one-on-one wins, even against TR-8R, was problematic, as was him drinking for the animal trough.

But I *do* feel I can correctly identify that his situation and portrayal got immeasurably worse from TLJ on, and I do trust Boyega himself enough to agree that it was a problem that was fueled more by Johnson and LFL’s bias against him than Abrams. While Abrams still deserves some side eye for some choices in both TFA and TROS regarding race, Boyega clearly has his back at least in regards to his own treatment and on some of the other BTS issues that were exposed in the narrative… and some of those issues come from very weird places.

Like, Kelly Marie Tran clearly got a lot of racist shit thrown her way for playing Rose, and yeah, it sucks that her character got shortchanged in TROS… but on some level, the character itself, regardless of her actress’s ethnicity, was designed to help demote and denigrate Finn, which was why she was conceptually boring character laboring to exposit the retcons and messages Rian Johnson wanted the audience to accept regarding Finn.

The problem is that, for all the little bits and pieces of questionable decisions regarding Finn in TFA, when the film was done, Finn was the ST’s Han Solo - a popular-in-the-real-world, heroic regular dude capable of drama and humor and clearly positioned as at least “romantic interest-adjacent” if not as an actual romantic interest. And Finn in TFA was the lynchpin for the plot and all the major victories of the film…

… and the next film insisted those actions didn’t matter, that he wasn’t a selfless friend and hero but “obsessed with Rey,” and that a sad, selfish old white guy doing a five minute illusion to save 12 people (while someone else does the heavy lifting) was more inspiring, and that a Neo Nazi School Shooter who violated the main female character made a better romantic interest for her.

And LFL’ earned some more side eye with how it’s implicit they ordered Abrams to remove any scenes between just Rey and Finn and conceal Finn had the Force from the final cut of TROS, possibly for the same reasons they might have ordered Rey kiss Ben Solo in the film.

Can’t be better said imo. As a Black man I found/still find Finn Highly Offensive & those last 3 movie pretty much killed my Star Wars fandom ( I used to watch everything movie/cartoon wise. I may watch the Ahsoka show but I’ve been boycotting this franchise & don’t miss a it one bit

[mace11]

Moses Ingram Faces Death Threats And Attacks From Star Wars’ Darker Side
Here is some more talk about it.

[skyvolt2000]

What's happening with Reva makes a good case for why it's not a bad idea to drop all episodes at once in certain cases. Clear the character has a journey that has yet to be realized.

Let's also not act like Star Wars has had Academy Award winning performances and writing throughout it's existence. "No No No....YOU will die" *facepalm*

It would not have mattered they would have still come out attacking her.

Can’t be better said imo. As a Black man I found/still find Finn Highly Offensive & those last 3 movie pretty much killed my Star Wars fandom

Well Disney is acting Star Wars ended with Return of the Jedi as NOTHING has been done with Finn and crew since that movie.

No new books or merchandise.
Now think those 3 films still made over 3 billion. And Disney is acting like those films never happened.

To me that is pandering to those trolls who went after Finn & Rose. Instead of trying to fix all the Finn flaws.

[skyvolt2000]

To get back on topic a touch...


Is the black chick playing the Inquistor in Obi-Wan really a mediocre actress or is this SW fans picking on minorities again?

This.

Because if someone had issues with her acting and how the character was done-you would see comments about the script more than she is some diversity hire.

It is getting annoying that when we hear about issues with a franchise-a BLACK person is at the center of it.

Just being hired.

You know it's bad when actors from Star Trek are coming in to support the actress.

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/anson-mo...has-your-back/

Since the news broke, waves of support for Ingram hit social media in the hours following. And hate like that exists in all fandoms… with Star Trek being no stranger to narrow-minded wannabe "fans" looking to spew their bile on anyway who doesn't fit their sad dreams on how the franchise should look. So there was a lot of meaning to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds star Anson Mount not only taking to social media to defend Ingram but to also pledge the support of the entire "Star Trek" universe.

[Username taken]

This.

Because if someone had issues with her acting and how the character was done-you would see comments about the script more than she is some diversity hire.

It is getting annoying that when we hear about issues with a franchise-a BLACK person is at the center of it.

Just being hired.

You know it's bad when actors from Star Trek are coming in to support the actress.

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/anson-mo...has-your-back/

I agree. It's now becoming really annoying.

Anytime some parts of the Star Wars fandom see a minority, they become racist immediately.

[Mister Mets]

This.

Because if someone had issues with her acting and how the character was done-you would see comments about the script more than she is some diversity hire.

It is getting annoying that when we hear about issues with a franchise-a BLACK person is at the center of it.

Just being hired.

You know it's bad when actors from Star Trek are coming in to support the actress.

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/anson-mo...has-your-back/

It always seems weird when fans of larger than life heroes do racist or misogynistic things. It just goes against the ethos of the series.

Shouldn't a racist Star Wars troll recognize that Han Solo would think he's a piece of shit?

One thing I have witnessed (and it's something other minorities have too because my Puerto-Rican relatives think the same thing) is a lot of "white liberals" shift away from liberalism when the culture shifts a little left. It's like they can't agree with any other form of liberalism that doesn't fit their own definition and they then automatically shift towards the right. We're still seeing it today with idiots like Bill Maher and even bigger asshats like Elon Musk. Basically, if they have no say over the control of the narrative, they shift to the side where they can influence the said narrative. Needless to say, it's problematic in a number of ways because guys like these were never really about the struggle, it was always about them getting attention.

Most minorities I have interacted with don't hate white people, they simply don't have the luxury to do so. In fact, we don't really talk about white people in our private lives at all. However (for whatever reason), it does seem that minorities activities and their lives live rent-free in a lot of white people's minds. So many white people simply utter racist garbage (sometimes its very passive or subtle but its racist) at the first minority they meet for whatever reason. This is just speculation on my part because I'm not white but from the laws being enacted (anti-CRT, anti-trans e.t.c) it seems a lot of affluent white people spend an absurd time thinking (negatively) about minorities.

One weird thing politically is the distinction between white liberals and white people.

By all accounts, white Democrats have moved heavily to the left, including on racial issues.

https://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/182598...ing-trump-2020

White Americans in general are more conservative, and more likely to hold retrograde views.

There were plenty of BIPOC Democratic voters who identified as moderates and conservatives, although this may be changing.

https://www.njspotlightnews.org/2022...ocratic-party/

https://rollcall.com/2021/06/23/as-d...to-the-center/

One complicating factor is that White Democrats tend to hold different views. They're more likely to be against to be against hierarchy and discipline, which explains some absurd efforts to equate white supremacy with a preference for measurable results or a sense of urgency.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/tema-okun?s=r

Because more white people are conservative, white liberals tend to have some preferences that don't necessary match those of Black or Hispanic Democrats.

[babyblob]

I better not put this off any longer

I'm kinda private so this harder than it should be. Ok.

I want you all to know I'm not asking for anything. I have no GoFundMe I've been really lucky with my Stateinsurance . Only piece of luck I've had.

Last in June I was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer. They put me on chemo right away. The initial mix was helpful. Later treatments less so.

So now the docs are trying a new therapy. I have no idea if it working or not. Nutrition is a major issue as my appetite is dead.

Any well wishes would be appreciated.

Don't know what even to say. Thanks for listening,

I am heart broken to hear this. We have a history of Cancer in my family. I wish you all the best and hope for the best.

[godisawesome]

It would not have mattered they would have still come out attacking her.




Well Disney is acting Star Wars ended with Return of the Jedi as NOTHING has been done with Finn and crew since that movie.

No new books or merchandise.
Now think those 3 films still made over 3 billion. And Disney is acting like those films never happened.

To me that is pandering to those trolls who went after Finn & Rose. Instead of trying to fix all the Finn flaws.

I think the lack of material for the ST heroes actually has more to do with systemic racism within LFL during their production and denial on their part now that it’s over. I don't actually think modern LFL cares about catering to racists or sexists outside of their own circle - thus why The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett had almost entirely non-white casts and why LFL knows those stories are their bread and butter now. What they *do* care about is being “right” in the way the ST refocused onto Adam Driver’s Kylo Ren instead of Rey, Finn or any other characters, and in particular, they care about being “right” in saying that TLJ was a great progressive movie even if the evidence shows it was actually pretty racist and sexist as a follow-up to TFA.

Because yes, all three movies made over a billion dollars… but the drop in audience interest and ticket sales coincided with TLJ’s release, and ended up being about half of the people who caught TFA in theaters - and the actual demographics of their opening weekends show the drop was disproportionately among women and minority audience members. LFL wants to say that TLJ’s divisiveness was caused by racists and sexists complaining about Tran, Dern, and Del Toro having roles and people not liking progressive messages… but the evidence shows that TLJ was more pleasing to an older, whiter, more male audiences as the story suddenly became about how trauma and internal conflict only really matter if you’re white and male. The fact that every non-white male character ends up just making the situation worse due to lazy, convoluted, and deeply problematic writing is also something LFL can9t stand to hear or talk about.

And the issues they had developing Episode IX showed LFL’s interest wasn’t really in Finn, Rose, Poe, or even Rey - the issue they had with the story was Kylo Ren being the main bad guy, which they demanded be changed. And lo and behold, when Abrams answered their request upon being rehired with Palpatine, the only real tie-in idea they were excited about wasn’t something featuring any of the heroic characters - just Ben Solo being privileged to have his teenage hissy fits depicted as a relatable tragedy.

I think LFL themselves don’t really want to do anything with Rey or Finn - because on some level, they’re aware they fucked up with Rey, and on another level, they never want to face the fact that Finn was a $2 Billion male lead and they went with a $1 Billion male lead instead with Ben Solo.

Cause again, they seem happy to plow ahead with making money with non-white actors in their other material. It’s mostly just with the ST they suddenly get paranoid…

I agree. It's now becoming really annoying.

Anytime some parts of the Star Wars fandom see a minority, they become racist immediately.

It’s important to recognize that these agitators clearly aren’t actually able to move the box office needle or Disney+ subscription numbers in their favor, though; the actual Star Wars fandom, as a whole, still seems to love diversity more than be racist.

Hell, I’d argue we could “prove” that pandering to racism and sexism actually drives fans away - as “Reylo” rose in importance to the ST, half the audience bounced away, and Reylo was pretty much defined by being a white male privilege fantasy.

[G. Boney]

I better not put this off any longer

I'm kinda private so this harder than it should be. Ok.

I want you all to know I'm not asking for anything. I have no GoFundMe I've been really lucky with my Stateinsurance . Only piece of luck I've had.

Last in June I was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer. They put me on chemo right away. The initial mix was helpful. Later treatments less so.

So now the docs are trying a new therapy. I have no idea if it working or not. Nutrition is a major issue as my appetite is dead.

Any well wishes would be appreciated.

Don't know what even to say. Thanks for listening,

Hoping for good results with the new treatment.