Minorities in Comics and Other Media, etc

[Adam Allen]

Not only Greek but Northern Macedonian Greek which is the area by Albania, Bulgaria, and Serbia. The people of that region look the same now as they did before the time of Alexander the Great. Also Cleopatra was from Alexandria a city that was a majority of Macedonian Greek. On top of that her "mystery mother" is in all probably the wife of Ptolemy XII (her father) who's name was also Cleopatra and was a Macedonian Greek woman. In keeping with the tradition Cleopatra also named her own daughter Cleopatra too. The idea that her mother was some exotic outsider is more of a romantic notion than a scholarly one.

If I haven't been clear before, I personally could not give a crap about Cleopatra. The details of ancient history are literally academic (in the sense of having no practical or useful significance), at this point.

I just find an argument like this to be psychologically fascinating. You are arguing with insistence about the racial purity of someone who died thousands of years ago. I don't think that's how archeology works.

As for the focus on Ancient Egypt, European colonization, and the Transatlantic slave trade -- those are all taught as relevant to American history, so not surprising if they are relevant to African Americans. Yes, there is a great deal of world history (Africa and everywhere else) that is completely ignored by the general US population, and most individuals in the US. That's not a point that is only true when discussing issues related to black people, though.

[Moon Ronin]

If I haven't been clear before, I personally could not give a crap about Cleopatra. The details of ancient history are literally academic (in the sense of having no practical or useful significance), at this point.

I just find an argument like this to be psychologically fascinating. You are arguing with insistence about the racial purity of someone who died thousands of years ago. I don't think that's how archeology works.

As for the focus on Ancient Egypt, European colonization, and the Transatlantic slave trade -- those are all taught as relevant to American history, so not surprising if they are relevant to African Americans. Yes, there is a great deal of world history (Africa and everywhere else) that is completely ignored by the general US population, and most individuals in the US. That's not a point that is only true when discussing issues related to black people, though.

You couldn't give a crap yet you keep replying to post about it and, academic history may not have any significance to you but to may to others.

Not about racial purity but about historical accuracy in something touted as a historical documentary, which is what historians and archaeology seek and how they work. Its the producers of this series that are driven by race, and I agree with the sentient that they are driving for but with not distorting facts to get there. If this were something like AMC's Anne Boleyn that cast Jodie Turner-Smith as the famous British queen it would be different. That show was fiction based on historical figures and made purely for entertainment which I see nothing wrong with.

Point was that it is an untapped resource for media. People know more about Japanese, Indian, and Mideastern history though movies, TV shows, and documentaries than any thing about the 2nd largest continent outside of those three subjects. Even among the US's black population outside of those that may have taken an advanced African history study in college you'd be hard pressed to find someone that could tell you anything that happened between the fall of the Egyptian dynasties and the arrival of European colonizers.

[Surf]

As for the focus on Ancient Egypt, European colonization, and the Transatlantic slave trade -- those are all taught as relevant to American history, so not surprising if they are relevant to African Americans.


Yes, there is a great deal of world history (Africa and everywhere else) that is completely ignored by the general US population, and most individuals in the US. That's not a point that is only true when discussing issues related to black people, though.

Quite. And 'relevant' reads as pilars of American history, as it used to be understood in most places anyway. As in, ain't one without the other, it's a cake lol. Colonization and large helpings of Manifest Destiny as your base, 100's of years of transatlantic trade, throw as many helpings of abject cruelty for taste and bake. The ones that enjoy the taste the most won't even care how it was made, only that it feels right.

That's our shinny badge, there's American pride in not knowing ****. Forget about World History, as a whole we struggle with Geography.



Biggest thing for me is, By Netflix own description, it is a DOCU-DRAMA, it's whatev. We can go up one side of ANY studio production ever and down the other, throughout history- same history people are finding so much credence in as their validation for concern, and find WAY more grievances. None of this is academia. I'd almost feel better if this was all about Elizabeth Taylor.

I'm also not 'mistrust EVERYTHING' guy, but the fact the historic 'scholars' somehow are thought to be bereft of cultural biases and/or inability in upholding dominant society IS part of the problem. The psychologically fascinating part. Putting a big ol' prosthetic nose on John Wayne and calling him Ghengis Khan is how it's normally done. Thank God that's changing, even slightly.

[Surf]

Aw wow, RIP to a lenged. He has this cold-ass line in the Is That Black Enough For You documentary where at 90+ he goes third person, with an F bomb, lol. A life lived.

[Username taken]

I'm also not 'mistrust EVERYTHING' guy, but the fact the historic 'scholars' somehow are thought to be bereft of cultural biases and/or inability in upholding dominant society IS part of the problem. The psychologically fascinating part. Putting a big ol' prosthetic nose on John Wayne and calling him Ghengis Khan is how it's normally done. Thank God that's changing, even slightly.

Exactly this.

Which is why there's never really a consensus when it comes to historical figures. Seriously, there was a time when "scholars" asserted that stuff like "Great Zimbabwe" was built by white people which defies common sense.

A lot of "scholars" aren't bereft of bias and have never been, hence the lack of consensus on a lot of historical stuff.

[Username taken]

Aw wow, RIP to a lenged. He has this cold-ass line in the Is That Black Enough For You documentary where at 90+ he goes third person, with an F bomb, lol. A life lived.

I'm ashamed to say I didn't know he was still alive.

Man, Belafonte got to 96, that was a pretty great run.

RIP to him.

[Adam Allen]

Yes, but Greek does equal Greek. I'm fine with a dark skinned Cleopatra, what I'm not okay with is twisting history in such a way where in that Greek part of her history is wiped out because there are a lot of people who want to revise the history of Egypt.

Yes, race lines were not the same, but attitudes didn't exactly change that much either unfortunately. Class, status, sex and even yes skin color did lead to certain beliefs within society. The thing is Egyptians and Greeks would like to be heard and scene on screen. I mean honestly how man Greek actresses or Egyptian actresses can you name right now?



Because Netflix didn't promote it. I will happily watch it if its an actual documentary on Queen Njinga of Angola. But I'd rather they dive into othere Egyptian rulers before Cleopatra. Namely because everyone knows her thanks to the Shakespeare's history.

How is the Greek part of her history being wiped out?

And "attitudes didn't exactly change much" in 2000 years?

Okay, what beliefs did class, status, sex, and skin color lead to, in Ancient Egypt? Like, for example? That hasn't changed from our world today, which I guess is your point?

And omg. Jada Smith and Netflix are stifling the expression of Egyptian and Greek culture or artists how, exactly?

It's not that Netflix didn't promote Njinga; it's just that people are upset about Cleopatra.

[Adam Allen]

You couldn't give a crap yet you keep replying to post about it and, academic history may not have any significance to you but to may to others.

Not about racial purity but about historical accuracy in something touted as a historical documentary, which is what historians and archaeology seek and how they work. Its the producers of this series that are driven by race, and I agree with the sentient that they are driving for but with not distorting facts to get there. If this were something like AMC's Anne Boleyn that cast Jodie Turner-Smith as the famous British queen it would be different. That show was fiction based on historical figures and made purely for entertainment which I see nothing wrong with.

Point was that it is an untapped resource for media. People know more about Japanese, Indian, and Mideastern history though movies, TV shows, and documentaries than any thing about the 2nd largest continent outside of those three subjects. Even among the US's black population outside of those that may have taken an advanced African history study in college you'd be hard pressed to find someone that could tell you anything that happened between the fall of the Egyptian dynasties and the arrival of European colonizers.

Said I don't care about Cleopatra, which is true. Immediately followed by saying I find the argument psychologically fascinating.

I'm done. I have no desire to validate the racism of some stupid Egyptians.

I'm also not 'mistrust EVERYTHING' guy, but the fact the historic 'scholars' somehow are thought to be bereft of cultural biases and/or inability in upholding dominant society IS part of the problem. The psychologically fascinating part.

What they said.

[Moon Ronin]

Said I don't care about Cleopatra, which is true. Immediately followed by saying I find the argument psychologically fascinating.

What is fascinating is people creating an unnecessary controversy regarding something that couldn’t be more clear than it is, and that if some one is set on making a documentary it should revolve around fact and historical evidence and not romanticized conjecture and idealism. Yes it is very "psychologically fascinating" to say don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. In one scene in the trailer it had Cleopatra sword fighting with a man. There is no evidence at all that suggest any notion that she had any training or combat experience at all. Again if this was labeled as historical fiction I'd have no issue with it. The Stratford Festival put on Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra years ago in which Yanna McIntosh (a Jamaican-born Canadian actress) played the lead role and I think it was great and she did an awesome job. But it never touted "this is the real story" it's only goal was to entertain in which is exactly what it did.

What they said.

I don't completely disagree with them either.

Netflix has a docu-series about the Roman Empire in which Cleopatra is played by Jessica Green (a very pretty green eyed Australian actress) and not a peep from the Egyptians on that front. Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian (nor was she very good looking), she identified culturally and ethnically as Greek. Saying that she was an Egyptian Queen is like saying Elon Musk is an African billionaire or that George Washington was a native American. All are technically true.......But really?

Great Zimbabwe was brought up earlier and is an outstanding example of writing/rewriting history though the lenses of biases, and shows the reason why history should not be told with motivation in anything other than presenting the facts and evidence as is without forcing it to fit with in a set scope of thinking. The Netflix's Cleopatra documentary is doing just that (forcing it to fit despite the facts and evidence) and people that admonish the act from past situations are defending this one, that's "psychologically fascinating".

[Username taken]

Meanwhile, the witch that accused Emmett Till has died.

I hope she burns in hell for what she did.

[80sbaby]

Pras from the Fugees was covicted on 10 criminal counts and is facing 20 years in prison.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/26/u...convicted.html

[Adam Allen]

Pras from the Fugees was covicted on 10 criminal counts and is facing 20 years in prison.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/26/u...convicted.html

Honestly seems kind of over-stiff penalty, to me.

https://apnews.com/article/fugees-ra...69388efb69773a

[Darkspellmaster]

How is the Greek part of her history being wiped out?

And "attitudes didn't exactly change much" in 2000 years?

Okay, what beliefs did class, status, sex, and skin color lead to, in Ancient Egypt? Like, for example? That hasn't changed from our world today, which I guess is your point?

And omg. Jada Smith and Netflix are stifling the expression of Egyptian and Greek culture or artists how, exactly?

It's not that Netflix didn't promote Njinga; it's just that people are upset about Cleopatra.

Because every single person that tends to play her is a white European woman, never someone action Greek. See wonder woman we got an Israeli playing her over Greek actress. People always make her out to be Liz Taylor, she wasn't. Adding onto her with more fabrications does not do this woman justice.

They haven't. People with darker skin still got **** on during the BC era. Sexism and classism existed. When I say attitudes didn't exactly change, this is what I mean. We've grown but not by a hell of a lot over the years.

Yes. My point was and still is that non of that has changed in the years since her time. Or rather it hasn't heavily evolved.

By adding more revisions to history that we already know. I didn't say it was stifling their expression. I am talking about how their concerns are not being addressed.

So let's say there's a docudrama about the king of Hawaii, and they get a Malaysian actor to play the part and argue that the king was Malaysian. And the director told native Hawaiians to sit down and shut up. Do you think they should?

People are upset because too many people over the years have done disservice to her. Making her into something that she wasn't.

[Darkspellmaster]

Meanwhile, the witch that accused Emmett Till has died.

I hope she burns in hell for what she did.

May she rot for all eternity.

[Overhazard]

Because every single person that tends to play her is a white European woman, never someone action Greek. See wonder woman we got an Israeli playing her over Greek actress. People always make her out to be Liz Taylor, she wasn't. Adding onto her with more fabrications does not do this woman justice.

They haven't. People with darker skin still got **** on during the BC era. Sexism and classism existed. When I say attitudes didn't exactly change, this is what I mean. We've grown but not by a hell of a lot over the years.

Yes. My point was and still is that non of that has changed in the years since her time. Or rather it hasn't heavily evolved.

By adding more revisions to history that we already know. I didn't say it was stifling their expression. I am talking about how their concerns are not being addressed.

So let's say there's a docudrama about the king of Hawaii, and they get a Malaysian actor to play the part and argue that the king was Malaysian. And the director told native Hawaiians to sit down and shut up. Do you think they should?

People are upset because too many people over the years have done disservice to her. Making her into something that she wasn't.

The Rock has been trying to make a movie about King Kamehameha for years, I think it may be happening but I'm not sure. Indigenous Hawaiians don't want the project done at all.