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  1. #9241
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    The IIconics aren't the ones to do that I'm afraid, especially not with how they've been booked. It'd just make Asuka & Kairi look like jokes if they cannot beat a comedy tag team. And after Asuka's booking this year, and Kairi's ignominious exit from NXT, that's NOT what they need.

    Also if WWE wanted to "build drama," which they tend to suck at these days as it is, the The IIconics wouldn't have such a dismal record since Mania.
    Because the Iconics are heel champs, they don't have to be dominant. THey just need to be be able to keep the belt when it counts. Flair said back in the day he lost 3000 matches, but won 16. An exaggeration to be sure, but the point being that the type of heels they are don't require them to actually win a lot. For heels, being potrayed as beatable actually is one viable way of booking champs.

  2. #9242
    Astonishing Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Because the Iconics are heel champs, they don't have to be dominant. THey just need to be be able to keep the belt when it counts. Flair said back in the day he lost 3000 matches, but won 16. An exaggeration to be sure, but the point being that the type of heels they are don't require them to actually win a lot. For heels, being potrayed as beatable actually is one viable way of booking champs.
    otoh hand they don't need to look like shit either. the way they're booked really does them nor whoever chases/beats them any favors. putting the belts on them before really establishing the titles was a bad move only made worse by the way they've been booked since.

    i like optimism but you have a tendency to make "not really hurting" talent sound like an accomplishment, especially when it comes to WWE.


    impact was really good this week. crist brother vs tessa was very good and i'm looking forward to sami vs tessa. glad to see TJP return as himself rather than a gimmick. elgin vs johnny holmes vs swann was a great tv main event with a clean finish and still built elgin vs cage and holmes vs swann at the ppv.

    i actually have high hopes for slammiversary
    Last edited by BigLbo; 06-22-2019 at 06:32 AM.

  3. #9243
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    otoh hand they don't need to look like shit either. the way they're booked really does them nor whoever chases/beats them any favors. putting the belts on them before really establishing the titles was a bad move only made worse by the way they've been booked since.

    i like optimism but you have a tendency to make "not really hurting" talent sound like an accomplishment, especially when it comes to WWE.


    impact was really good this week. crist brother vs tessa was very good and i'm looking forward to sami vs tessa. glad to see TJP return as himself rather than a gimmick. elgin vs johnny holmes vs swann was a great tv main event with a clean finish and still built elgin vs cage and holmes vs swann at the ppv.

    i actually have high hopes for slammiversary
    In hindsight they probably had to take the belts off of Sasha and Bayley since Sasha seemingly was ready for a vacation. Plus, IMO them winning the belts actually made a nice Wrestlemania moment. Despite being heels, I think it was actually pretty emotional.

    But I do agree the Iconics probably should be booked stronger. Honestly they should win most tag matches against make shift tag teams that are just 2 random people thrown together. I don't think the lack of wins is hurting them THAT much because they are good at getting heat on themselves.... but I would agree they probably should win more, even if it's by cheating.

  4. #9244
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Because the Iconics are heel champs, they don't have to be dominant. THey just need to be be able to keep the belt when it counts. Flair said back in the day he lost 3000 matches, but won 16. An exaggeration to be sure, but the point being that the type of heels they are don't require them to actually win a lot. For heels, being potrayed as beatable actually is one viable way of booking champs.
    The Iconics ain't Ric Flair. He could eat those losses because he's an established name so was so over that eating lots of losses wouldn't hurt his creditability. The Iconics don't have that luxury. They're barely on TV and when they are it's always to lose.

  5. #9245
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In hindsight they probably had to take the belts off of Sasha and Bayley since Sasha seemingly was ready for a vacation. Plus, IMO them winning the belts actually made a nice Wrestlemania moment. Despite being heels, I think it was actually pretty emotional.

    But I do agree the Iconics probably should be booked stronger. Honestly they should win most tag matches against make shift tag teams that are just 2 random people thrown together. I don't think the lack of wins is hurting them THAT much because they are good at getting heat on themselves.... but I would agree they probably should win more, even if it's by cheating.
    The lack of wins don't hurt them. They got over for being funny. It's hurts the title and the "division".

    I don't need heels to get clean wins. I need heel champs to win though.

    Some people may not like the Iconics, but other than the Kabuki Warriors, they are the only team that gets a reaction.

  6. #9246
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUTHAIFA View Post
    The lack of wins don't hurt them. They got over for being funny. It's hurts the title and the "division".

    I don't need heels to get clean wins. I need heel champs to win though.

    Some people may not like the Iconics, but other than the Kabuki Warriors, they are the only team that gets a reaction.
    Booking wise it's almost tricky since you probably want to protect both teams. Iconics will probably end up the face of the tag team division since they are arguably the only REAL tag team. I can imagine the Iconics still being a team 3-4 years from now... I'd be halfway surprised if the Kabuki warriors haven't turned on each by Wrestlemania.

    But likewise the Kabuki Warriors should be protected since they are not only the only over face tag team, but two fairly high profile singles wrestlers whom you don't necessarily want looking too weak.

    Iconics however can stand to take losses because they can get their heat back, moreso than the Kabuki Warriors can retain their credibility from loses. So ultimately it's more important for the Kabuki Warriors to win in the end... but I don't necessarily think that means immediately beating the Iconics and moving on from them.

  7. #9247
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Because the Iconics are heel champs, they don't have to be dominant. THey just need to be be able to keep the belt when it counts. Flair said back in the day he lost 3000 matches, but won 16. An exaggeration to be sure, but the point being that the type of heels they are don't require them to actually win a lot. For heels, being potrayed as beatable actually is one viable way of booking champs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    The Iconics ain't Ric Flair. He could eat those losses because he's an established name so was so over that eating lots of losses wouldn't hurt his creditability. The Iconics don't have that luxury. They're barely on TV and when they are it's always to lose.

    Actually if you read Death of WCW or one of the Scott Keith books ...the losses or not winning on national TV did hurt Flair's credibility. It was said later that the "Dusty Finish" pretty much hurt Crockett and the fact that while Flair was being booked as a champion who needed help keeping his title ; Hulk Hogan was winning matches straight. While sure Flair is a heel and he was a great heel , its sadly how they booked him with weak finishes that hurt him and Crockett.

    It wasn't til Dusty was removed and Flair was made head of booking committee awhile did he really show what an in ring performer he was. His matches with Steamboat and fair wins showed the audience that yes Ric Flair is a heel. But he's one of the greatest in ring workers and gained that respect. Its a shame it took Flair having to get placed in charge to finally get that.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  8. #9248
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Actually if you read Death of WCW or one of the Scott Keith books ...the losses or not winning on national TV did hurt Flair's credibility. It was said later that the "Dusty Finish" pretty much hurt Crockett and the fact that while Flair was being booked as a champion who needed help keeping his title ; Hulk Hogan was winning matches straight. While sure Flair is a heel and he was a great heel , its sadly how they booked him with weak finishes that hurt him and Crockett.

    It wasn't til Dusty was removed and Flair was made head of booking committee awhile did he really show what an in ring performer he was. His matches with Steamboat and fair wins showed the audience that yes Ric Flair is a heel. But he's one of the greatest in ring workers and gained that respect. Its a shame it took Flair having to get placed in charge to finally get that.
    I don't agree at all that Flair didn't get respect until he was made head booker. He was a champion that people paid to see long before that. If the company makes you their champion, they respect you. And if the fans continually pay to see you, then they respect you as a performer even if they are booing you.

    I don't dispute that Dustys booking didn't get bad at one point, but to argue Flair wasn't respected as a performer prior to that is giving the booking way to much credit.

  9. #9249
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I don't agree at all that Flair didn't get respect until he was made head booker. He was a champion that people paid to see long before that. If the company makes you their champion, they respect you. And if the fans continually pay to see you, then they respect you as a performer even if they are booing you.

    I don't dispute that Dustys booking didn't get bad at one point, but to argue Flair wasn't respected as a performer prior to that is giving the booking way to much credit.
    Flair was a great heel for sure and many loved that. But his title defenses and needing constant help to keep said title was what hurt him and Crockett. Because they were approaching it from an old school perspective. The cowardly cheap heel gets help to keep his title even though he loses non title matches or uses his heel group. . Its just by the 1980's TBS was a national TV product. Your audience is seeing 2 men nationally at this point. A guy in WWF who is beating whoever is in his way fairly and then the other guy needing the 4 Horsemen and tactics to win or Dusty Finishes.

    What made it even more silly was Crockett wanted to compete nationally. So beyond the south (where he did GREAT) the audience outside that was getting this version of Flair . Again all credit to Flair who managed to stay a solid heel during this entire deal , but he showed people a lot in 1989. His matches against Steamboat and Funk showed he didn't need anyones help etc.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

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  11. #9251
    Astonishing Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In hindsight they probably had to take the belts off of Sasha and Bayley since Sasha seemingly was ready for a vacation. Plus, IMO them winning the belts actually made a nice Wrestlemania moment. Despite being heels, I think it was actually pretty emotional.

    But I do agree the Iconics probably should be booked stronger. Honestly they should win most tag matches against make shift tag teams that are just 2 random people thrown together. I don't think the lack of wins is hurting them THAT much because they are good at getting heat on themselves.... but I would agree they probably should win more, even if it's by cheating.
    don't you have that backwards, isn't sasha vacation because they took the belts off of them.

    and really a mania moment for the fukn iconics?? they've been in the WWE for a cup of coffee, it seemed emotional for them but i don't remember the crowd caring too much.

  12. #9252
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    don't you have that backwards, isn't sasha vacation because they took the belts off of them.

    and really a mania moment for the fukn iconics?? they've been in the WWE for a cup of coffee, it seemed emotional for them but i don't remember the crowd caring too much.
    If Sasha needs a vacation because she lost a ritle, then she needed a vacation anyways, because that's just a part of the game. People who win belts lose them too. If she can't handle losing a belt then she probably shouldn't be carrying one.

    And the crowd popped for the Icobic winning, despite being heels. When you sgow that much appreciation its hard not to.

  13. #9253
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    don't you have that backwards, isn't sasha vacation because they took the belts off of them.

    and really a mania moment for the fukn iconics?? they've been in the WWE for a cup of coffee, it seemed emotional for them but i don't remember the crowd caring too much.
    sasha is on vacation because the E basically lied to her and bayley. they said they would give them a long title reign with defense across all the brands, including both NXT and NXT UK. sasha wanted those belts to mean something and have value.

    and we know what happened since then. i don't hate the iiconics. i just hate how they and the belt have been treated. i mean, the last title defense they had was against alexa and nikki, a pair who was never a team before this, didn't do anything to earn a title shot and only used the match to build up the match between alexa and bayley for tonight.

  14. #9254
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    From what I heard, it was:

    -Sasha & Bayley lobbied Vince for weeks/months directly to get those belts made.

    -They were promised/led to believe that they would get a long/strong reign to really establish the belts. Sasha has even said that she WANTED to drop them to The IIconics eventually, it was the timing that was the problem.

    -WWE send them down to NXT, and over to SDL, and had them cut promos hyping up them defending the belts on all brands (which hasn't happened either BTW).

    -Then they were told the night before Mania that, oops, actually they're dropping the titles to The IIconics the next day. Also this wasn't a last minute decision either, WWE had known for awhile that they would do this, they just didn't bother to tell the champs about it until the last minute.

    -Then apparently WWE wanted Sasha & Bayley to both put over Alexa at the same time the next night on Raw. Sasha actually tweeted pics of her and Bayley hanging out with Billie and Peyton at Mania, and saying she "wouldn't change things," and there were pics of her at Raw before the show. So apparently her leaving was a last-second decision on her part.

    -Etc.

    It seems it was the one two punch of being forced to drop the tag titles, being lied to about getting a long/strong reign beforehand, AND WWE wanting both her and Bayley to put over Alexa 2 on 1 not 24 hours later (I mean Bayley lost to Alexa in 3 minutes, that was pathetic) that set her off.

    And given that they've been jerking her around with the booking for her entire MR career, and undercutting her every time that she starts building momentum, I cannot blame her if she's finally gotten sick of it. They've wasted so much potential with her that it's pathetic.

    And if I'm Sasha, I'm watching what happens with the Bayley vs. Alexa match tonight VERY closely. But who wins, and how, will be very telling about WWE's agenda.

  15. #9255
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    I wouldn't even be watching WWE if I were Sasha. Wait out the contract and bounce. AEW and the Joshi will be happy to have her.

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