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[XPac]

Those losses are few and far between. And she doesn't lose clean. Austin, Cena and Roman were faces, so that's just different.

Becky WAS in a complete different boat because it was something of a fan revolt (after losing to Charlotte again) that propped her up. Then she ran with it and became arguably the most over superstar in the company.

You can't have a heel wrestler (or tweener or whatever she is now) constantly and consistently win matches clean and by submission. It makes the faces look weak and Charlotte stronger and stronger.

That's the complete opposite of how to build up the division.

If this were Samoa Joe (again lets pretend he was a heel) would we be complaining that he needs to cheat to beat the faces? I would argue no... he is a dominant performer, heel or face, that in theory is good enough to beat anyone. And I'd say the same for Charlotte (who is a pretty decent analogue to Charlotte since he also wins via submission).

I was a big fan of how Joe was handled when he first came to TNA. He was this big unstoppable heel who choked people out clean. He won clean because he was that damn good, despite being a heel, and I thought it was great. I wish they had kept on booking him that way frankly.

It's one thing for Joe to cheat to beat a high level main eventer, like a Roman Reigns. But if Joe needed to cheat to beat a mid-card performer like a Cedric Alenader? I don't think that would help the program or the roster... in fact at a certain point I think it would start hurting Joe. Charlotte to me is the female equivalent of Samoa Joe (only booked better). She's a big physcally dominant performer who can match up with anyone athletically or technically.

[HUTHAIFA]

So Jim Cornette tried to defend the whole way Bart Gunn was done after he won Brawl for All. That there was no conspiracy to derail Bart Gunn. Because no one expected Bart to even win anything so no one knew what to do with him. Because the company and everyone thought that Doctor Death would win this. That if you told everyone about it , this tournament was built for Doc to win.

He claims there was no fix in for it to make Doctor Death win (which is absurd given how they changed brackets to push Doctor Death at Bart and put him in this promoting him for it). That everyone in the company felt in a shoot fight Doc who had a reputation would win it very easy. Except as we saw the rules of it was really against Williams. He was forced to wear boxing gloves and the whole weird take down system had him at a disadvantage.

The company he claims had no way of pushing anyone besides Doc who was in this and he believes that this cost the company at least $5 million in PPV revenue as the build for it was. Also he feels that Bart was able to use this in Japan as we saw and had a decent run there for a few years.

Love Corny, but that's bull. If Williams had won, I can guarantee he would not have ended up with Butter Bean. Just give Bart the same storyline you would have given Williams . They do this all the time, when somebody gets hurt.

[HUTHAIFA]

If this were Samoa Joe (again lets pretend he was a heel) would we be complaining that he needs to cheat to beat the faces? I would argue no... he is a dominant performer, heel or face, that in theory is good enough to beat anyone. And I'd say the same for Charlotte (who is a pretty decent analogue to Charlotte since he also wins via submission).

I was a big fan of how Joe was handled when he first came to TNA. He was this big unstoppable heel who choked people out clean. He won clean because he was that damn good, despite being a heel, and I thought it was great. I wish they had kept on booking him that way frankly.

It's one thing for Joe to cheat to beat a high level main eventer, like a Roman Reigns. But if Joe needed to cheat to beat a mid-card performer like a Cedric Alenader? I don't think that would help the program or the roster... in fact at a certain point I think it would start hurting Joe. Charlotte to me is the female equivalent of Samoa Joe (only booked better). She's a big physcally dominant performer who can match up with anyone athletically or technically.

Charlotte is not presented as a big person. She just is bigger than most of her opponents, but her size is rarely brought like it is for Vader or Joe.

She is presented as just being superior. It's why she doesn't work well as a face, and it's why even as a heel, it's hard to get a proper rub from her. I think Charlotte is the best all around female performer in American Wrestling.

But her value to the NXT roster is to bring up everybody. Not just having a decent match and having them tap out cleanly to her. It didn't work with Brock, and diminished the Universal title to this day.

A Bad Guy Has To Do Bad Things.

Because if everything the heel says and does is right than the only thing I am booing is Vince McMahons booking. That not storyline driven heat. That's crippling Roman Reigns heat. Charlotte and women's roster deserves better than that. Charlotte can't have a worthwhile career, if the only people she can fight are Rhonda and Becky.

[Immortal Weapon]

Love Corny, but that's bull. If Williams had won, I can guarantee he would not have ended up with Butter Bean. Just give Bart the same storyline you would have given Williams . They do this all the time, when somebody gets hurt.

They couldn't do that. As Jim said, Bart was a guy the company presented as an underneath guy for 5 years. He beat a bunch of other underneath guys in a series of matches that never got over. He said the people would have never brought him going against Austin. Bart getting William's push would be like Jinder's main-event push from 3 years ago.

[XPac]

Charlotte is not presented as a big person. She just is bigger than most of her opponents, but her size is rarely brought like it is for Vader or Joe.

She is presented as just being superior. It's why she doesn't work well as a face, and it's why even as a heel, it's hard to get a proper rub from her. I think Charlotte is the best all around female performer in American Wrestling.

But her value to the NXT roster is to bring up everybody. Not just having a decent match and having them tap out cleanly to her. It didn't work with Brock, and diminished the Universal title to this day.

A Bad Guy Has To Do Bad Things.

Because if everything the heel says and does is right than the only thing I am booing is Vince McMahons booking. That not storyline driven heat. That's crippling Roman Reigns heat. Charlotte and women's roster deserves better than that. Charlotte can't have a worthwhile career, if the only people she can fight are Rhonda and Becky.

They DO in fact mention that Charlotte has a physical and athletic superiority over most of her opponents. They don't specifically mention size often (though she is bigger than most of her peers), but her being able to physically and athletically dominant a good portion of the female roster is brought up.

I think it's sometimes easy to forget because she can keep up with the smaller competitors move for move better than most of the larger performers. But that's precisely why she like Joe are somewhat unique. They're big but they can also go, and that's why they're booked as heels that can win. Because they legit are that good.

Charlotte, like Joe DOES do bad things. They will pearl harbor opponents in interviews and attack them without legitimate provocation. Just because they're GOOD in the ring doesn't make them GOOD people. They still do bad guy things... it's just that they're also actually capable of winning matches without cheating. And I don't agree there's anything wrong with that.

I"ll ask again... if this were a heel Samoa Joe would you have the same complaints? If Joe beat people clean, would you be arguing that he needs to cheat more? Personally speaking, I'm fine with it because AGAIN I think Joe is just that good. Unless it's a Roman Reigns or a Brock Lesnar he SHOULD be able to choke out any opponent clean 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring. If that makes Joe RIGHT than fine... Joe is right.

[Immortal Weapon]

The XFL is dead for a second time.
https://www.espn.com/xfl/story/_/id/...ns-return-2021

[HUTHAIFA]

They couldn't do that. As Jim said, Bart was a guy the company presented as an underneath guy for 5 years. He beat a bunch of other underneath guys in a series of matches that never got over. He said the people would have never brought him going against Austin. Bart getting William's push would be like Jinder's main-event push from 3 years ago.

Maybe it's my memory, I just don't ever remember Williams ever being a big deal in the WWE. I also don't believe in not being able to push a guy just because of their past. I think anyone can be rehabbed.

[HUTHAIFA]

They DO in fact mention that Charlotte has a physical and athletic superiority over most of her opponents. They don't specifically mention size often (though she is bigger than most of her peers), but her being able to physically and athletically dominant a good portion of the female roster is brought up.

I think it's sometimes easy to forget because she can keep up with the smaller competitors move for move better than most of the larger performers. But that's precisely why she like Joe are somewhat unique. They're big but they can also go, and that's why they're booked as heels that can win. Because they legit are that good.

Charlotte, like Joe DOES do bad things. They will pearl harbor opponents in interviews and attack them without legitimate provocation. Just because they're GOOD in the ring doesn't make them GOOD people. They still do bad guy things... it's just that they're also actually capable of winning matches without cheating. And I don't agree there's anything wrong with that.

I"ll ask again... if this were a heel Samoa Joe would you have the same complaints? If Joe beat people clean, would you be arguing that he needs to cheat more? Personally speaking, I'm fine with it because AGAIN I think Joe is just that good. Unless it's a Roman Reigns or a Brock Lesnar he SHOULD be able to choke out any opponent clean 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring. If that makes Joe RIGHT than fine... Joe is right.

It's not a Charlotte thing to me.

I hate wrestlers who have to be fed. Never been a fan of Goldberg and so forth.

Charlotte doesn't need to be fed. She doesn't have those limitations.

When I see a heel beat a guy clean in the ring via submission, I have no desire to see that match again. Feud is over.

A submission carries a certain weight to it that a so simple pin doesn't. You quit. You submitted. You Tapped Out!!!

Joes chokehold sometimes protects people because they don't quit they just pass out. It's almost a disqualification.

Charlotte doesn't need to be built. She is the top of the card. She should be.

But this is the fight game, you have to make people believe that she can be beat. Mike Tyson didn't get a lot of rematches with guys he beat in the first round.

To me the best thing for Charlotte is to be in a women's division where she lose to and beat the best. Like male wrestlers enjoy. She needs to be in a division, where it's not only the championship that makes you relevant.

[Username taken]

If this were Samoa Joe (again lets pretend he was a heel) would we be complaining that he needs to cheat to beat the faces? I would argue no... he is a dominant performer, heel or face, that in theory is good enough to beat anyone. And I'd say the same for Charlotte (who is a pretty decent analogue to Charlotte since he also wins via submission).

I was a big fan of how Joe was handled when he first came to TNA. He was this big unstoppable heel who choked people out clean. He won clean because he was that damn good, despite being a heel, and I thought it was great. I wish they had kept on booking him that way frankly.

It's one thing for Joe to cheat to beat a high level main eventer, like a Roman Reigns. But if Joe needed to cheat to beat a mid-card performer like a Cedric Alenader? I don't think that would help the program or the roster... in fact at a certain point I think it would start hurting Joe. Charlotte to me is the female equivalent of Samoa Joe (only booked better). She's a big physcally dominant performer who can match up with anyone athletically or technically.

I also loved Joe's early booking in TNA. But the thing is he was a face and it's hard to imagine him cheating to beat anyone. Faces are traditionally booked stronger. As others have pointed out, Charlotte is probably the best female worker in the biz but if shes working heel, she needs to win dirtier.

A closer example would be Kurt Angle who was arguably the best worker on the card at his peak. As a heel, he was pretty dominant and won a lot of his matches clean. But he also worked dirty and lost a number of times and people still loved him.

Charlotte is fantastic but the booking needs to be more equitable or else it just looks like the women are goobers.

[Username taken]

It's not a Charlotte thing to me.

I hate wrestlers who have to be fed. Never been a fan of Goldberg and so forth.

Charlotte doesn't need to be fed. She doesn't have those limitations.

When I see a heel beat a guy clean in the ring via submission, I have no desire to see that match again. Feud is over.

A submission carries a certain weight to it that a so simple pin doesn't. You quit. You submitted. You Tapped Out!!!

Joes chokehold sometimes protects people because they don't quit they just pass out. It's almost a disqualification.

Charlotte doesn't need to be built. She is the top of the card. She should be.

But this is the fight game, you have to make people believe that she can be beat. Mike Tyson didn't get a lot of rematches with guys he beat in the first round.

To me the best thing for Charlotte is to be in a women's division where she lose to and beat the best. Like male wrestlers enjoy. She needs to be in a division, where it's not only the championship that makes you relevant.

Exactly. The whole "unstoppable force" a la Goldberg doesn't appeal to me at all.

Shes been established already. She doesn't need to keep winning the title to maintain that status. That's just cutting everyone else down.

Tapping out faces clean without exchanging that win destroys the face. It's like the Kurt Angle example I mentioned earlier, he beat Shawn Michael's clean but in the rematch he was super kicked.

[XPac]

I also loved Joe's early booking in TNA. But the thing is he was a face and it's hard to imagine him cheating to beat anyone. Faces are traditionally booked stronger. As others have pointed out, Charlotte is probably the best female worker in the biz but if shes working heel, she needs to win dirtier.

A closer example would be Kurt Angle who was arguably the best worker on the card at his peak. As a heel, he was pretty dominant and won a lot of his matches clean. But he also worked dirty and lost a number of times and people still loved him.

Charlotte is fantastic but the booking needs to be more equitable or else it just looks like the women are goobers.

Samoa Joe initially was a heel in TnA. He eventually turned face, like Charlotte did... but he started his run as an unstoppable monster heel that choked people out clean. And IMO it was cool.

[XPac]

It's not a Charlotte thing to me.

I hate wrestlers who have to be fed. Never been a fan of Goldberg and so forth.

Charlotte doesn't need to be fed. She doesn't have those limitations.

When I see a heel beat a guy clean in the ring via submission, I have no desire to see that match again. Feud is over.

A submission carries a certain weight to it that a so simple pin doesn't. You quit. You submitted. You Tapped Out!!!

Joes chokehold sometimes protects people because they don't quit they just pass out. It's almost a disqualification.

Charlotte doesn't need to be built. She is the top of the card. She should be.

But this is the fight game, you have to make people believe that she can be beat. Mike Tyson didn't get a lot of rematches with guys he beat in the first round.

To me the best thing for Charlotte is to be in a women's division where she lose to and beat the best. Like male wrestlers enjoy. She needs to be in a division, where it's not only the championship that makes you relevant.

That's why she lost to Becky like a half dozen times in a 6 month span, and why she couldn't beat Ronda. When legitimately placed against a peer like Becky or Ronda, she's just as likely to lose (arguably more likely since she couldn't really beat either). But she was the heel, and in most cases the top heel ultimately loses to the top face. TOP face. Doesn't necessarily apply to everyone up and down the roster.

The problem with womens wrestling is that you basically have a divsion of like 8 people. You don't have the depth that the mens single divsion does, which means you don't have the same sort of options. The way it works is legit TOP stars like Becky and Charlotte will almost always win, curtain jerkers like Lana or Vega pretty much always lose, and everyone else falls somewhere in the middle. You can't create new Beckys without turning someone into a new Lana... in a division that small if everyone is a top star no one is a top star.

So yeah... the Beckys and the Charlottes will win. A lot. It feeds them, but feeding the top stars feeds the company as a whole because it's hurt without the star power the Beckys and Charlottes bring. They DO need to occasionally have Becky and Charlotte put people over, but it needs to be done selectively. It's no different than a Roman Reigns or Cena or a Rock or an Austin.

That said... I do think can make a descent arguement both Charlotte and Becky should have lost at WM. And I do believe there's still an opportunity for Charlotte and Becky to ultimately put over Rhea and Shayna.

[HUTHAIFA]

That's why she lost to Becky like a half dozen times in a 6 month span, and why she couldn't beat Ronda. When legitimately placed against a peer like Becky or Ronda, she's just as likely to lose (arguably more likely since she couldn't really beat either). But she was the heel, and in most cases the top heel ultimately loses to the top face. TOP face. Doesn't necessarily apply to everyone up and down the roster.

The problem with womens wrestling is that you basically have a divsion of like 8 people. You don't have the depth that the mens single divsion does, which means you don't have the same sort of options. The way it works is legit TOP stars like Becky and Charlotte will almost always win, curtain jerkers like Lana or Vega pretty much always lose, and everyone else falls somewhere in the middle. You can't create new Beckys without turning someone into a new Lana... in a division that small if everyone is a top star no one is a top star.

So yeah... the Beckys and the Charlottes will win. A lot. It feeds them, but feeding the top stars feeds the company as a whole because it's hurt without the star power the Beckys and Charlottes bring. They DO need to occasionally have Becky and Charlotte put people over, but it needs to be done selectively. It's no different than a Roman Reigns or Cena or a Rock or an Austin.

That said... I do think can make a descent arguement both Charlotte and Becky should have lost at WM. And I do believe there's still an opportunity for Charlotte and Becky to ultimately put over Rhea and Shayna.

Becky is a real bad example. Charlotte and Becky should have been separated for awhile, but kept pushing Charlotte. Charlotte was just losing for the sake of losing. It didn't help Becky after awhile. My dream for the women's division is

Becky
Charlotte
Rhea
Shayna
Asuka
Bayley
Sasha
Nia
Bianca
Lacey
With a few NXT people as glorified jobbers
All competing for one WWE title. Then the other show had all the main roster women competing for the tag titles.

You have enough big names where you don't have to focus on the championship.Where a woman can lose one feud and win another without anyone getting buried.

Username Taken.Your Kurt Angle comparison was spot on

[XPac]

Becky is a real bad example. Charlotte and Becky should have been separated for awhile, but kept pushing Charlotte. Charlotte was just losing for the sake of losing. It didn't help Becky after awhile. My dream for the women's division is

Becky
Charlotte
Rhea
Shayna
Asuka
Bayley
Sasha
Nia
Bianca
Lacey
With a few NXT people as glorified jobbers
All competing for one WWE title. Then the other show had all the main roster women competing for the tag titles.

You have enough big names where you don't have to focus on the championship.Where a woman can lose one feud and win another without anyone getting buried.

Username Taken.Your Kurt Angle comparison was spot on

I'll agree that Becky and Charlotte feuded for maybe a bit too long... that said, the matches were very very good and it really did solidify Becky as the top female in the industry. She didn't beat Charlotte as some sort of fluke or whatever... she repeatedly won time and time again to cement her position. It was a statement of dominance for Becky, which didn't hurt one bit especially since the match quality was as good as it was.

[XPac]

The XFL is dead for a second time.
https://www.espn.com/xfl/story/_/id/...ns-return-2021

Too bad. I thought they were doing pretty well for a short while. I don't think this time at least Vince can be pretty proud of what he tried to do. It folded for reasons completely outside of his control.