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  1. #301
    Astonishing Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Rock was different. Rock was uber popular with the fans....TO A POINT. Whenever he was paired against a star that was very over, he was booed. He could never get cheered against Austin, he didn't get cheered against Hogan, and he got booed when the fans were riding the Rock bandwagon. Also it's no secret that when the Rock was given the nod over Austin at WM X7 the fans rejected it and business started tanking. Rock worked when Austin was out and they needed someone to fill in and the only top level star around was super heel heat Triple H. When given the choice, the fans always choose the other guy. Rock was a good Randy Savage, he wasn't a Hogan. He could get the run when he was threatening Austin (just like Savage), but when it came down to it, they wanted Austin.
    Huh? Rock lost at X-7 and disappeared after the re-match in a cage on RAW that led to the Two-Man Power Trip. He showed back up before the Invasion angle was winding down, but business was already slowing down before that. Now, 2002 was an entirely different beast with Rock getting turned on by the crowd at WM 18 and it continued throughout the year after he came back and won the WWE Title in that triple-threat with Angle and Benoit, culminating in Hollywood Rock in 2003.

  2. #302
    Extraordinary Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Here's the thing about the monster push... it works for the guys he's pushing. Just not so much for the guys he's squashing. Yes, throwing the rest of the lockerrom under the bus to get one guy over works for THEM. But it makes everyone else look bad in the process. It's not the same thing as say pushing a Seth Rollins or a Finn Balor, who can theoretically make everyone look good in the process.

    With a Braun, he's at times is making 2-3 guys look bad in the process to get him over.
    what's done is done though, there's no going back. they did it and it worked time to make the best of it.

    and if braun remains a midcard attraction it will all have been for nothing. you said he at times destroys multiple main event level guys at once, it makes those guys look even worse if they got destroyed by a midcarder.

    It CAN be worth it. It is getting Braun over. BUt you can't book a guy like that indefinitely. Eventually he has to start putting other people over to some degree too. And that's when Braun weaknesses potentially will get exposed. And that's where you separate a good big man (like say an Undertaker) from someone who basically wasted everyone's time (like Great Khali). If Braun can end up being another Taker, then this was all worth it and he'll have deserved the push and the belt. If he ends up another Khali, then a lot of good wrestlers were squashed or made to look bad for nothing. Time will tell.
    if they don't give braun the chance then those guys still looked bad for nothing. also we've seen strowman put somebody over in a near 20 minute match, and imo it was the best match he and roman had.

    i'm actually very surprised by your stance on this, usually you say nothing ever really hurts anybody and kind of make it sound like an accomplishment.

    All that said, I still think it makes more sense for KO to win it and cash it in. MitB just doesn't seem like the right way for a monster face to win his first world title. I still think it's more a thing designed for an opportunistic heel to take advantage of the situation. Braun can of course just cash it in clean... but then they might as well have not given him MITB in the first place. They could just book him to be in the main event of Summerslam as a triple threat, and had someone like KO win MITB who can actually use it.
    i'd love another KO title reign, but honestly he's needs to be built up for it. right now he'd be a weak champion and while i'm sure he'd make the most out of it we've seen that already.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    If they booked Ryback like Strong Man ... it'd probaly get a lot of arm chair bookers going, "SEE! WWE fuxed Ryback up!" He can has werkz ratez!"
    ERMAHGERD LOLOLOLOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    I never saw Strong Man work NJPW but from what looked up he mainly worked multi-man tag matches and world tag league. The G1 was the only time he worked singles and he never had an impressive record.
    yeah, he didn't just do squash matches.



    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Randy Orton is another one. They've been trying to push him for YEARS. YEARS. They never could get him to Cena's level. They dedicated WM24 and WM25 to making him a mainstream star heel wrestler and it never stuck. He got hot every once in awhile but the candle always burned out. Fans just didn't want him in that role. And if it wasn't for Bryan they would have tried him there again for WM XXXX\

    The key is to get someone over organically and not change their character and be malleable. Shawn's problem was they tried to make him white meat. To an extent that was Cena's problem but he was so damn over with a certain segment of fans that they could still use him as a cash cow and ignore the boos. Roman's issue is that he isn't a big business difference maker, however the company now has so many revenue streams that they will make money despite themselves. If Braun is hot and the fans keep supporting him, no reason to not make him chance.
    every time orton organically reached top heel status hhh snuffed his candle out, either to make himself the top heel or as a face. the evolution story would've been 1000x better if hhh was kicked out and turned face. then when he punted mr mackman, again hhh fukt that all up.
    Last edited by BigLbo; 08-18-2018 at 12:56 AM.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Nah I'm going to disagree with this. Shawn utterly flopped during his championship run, business was tanking, and his home town turned on him. He was never going to make it in that role. They smartly turned him heel and put him in DX which was a stroke of great booking and a stroke of luck that he was involved in the screwjob that got him even more heat. Shawn run as a maineventer and top guy was defined by failure and he needed the heel turn and left as a heel. Years later he came back as a nostalgia act against heel Triple H and got cheered, then he was never positioned as the top guy. He could work with a top guy, but his role was the legend who could still go and put on amazing performances. He just wasn't top guy material.

    Rock was different. Rock was uber popular with the fans....TO A POINT. Whenever he was paired against a star that was very over, he was booed. He could never get cheered against Austin, he didn't get cheered against Hogan, and he got booed when the fans were riding the Rock bandwagon. Also it's no secret that when the Rock was given the nod over Austin at WM X7 the fans rejected it and business started tanking. Rock worked when Austin was out and they needed someone to fill in and the only top level star around was super heel heat Triple H. When given the choice, the fans always choose the other guy. Rock was a good Randy Savage, he wasn't a Hogan. He could get the run when he was threatening Austin (just like Savage), but when it came down to it, they wanted Austin.

    Randy Orton is another one. They've been trying to push him for YEARS. YEARS. They never could get him to Cena's level. They dedicated WM24 and WM25 to making him a mainstream star heel wrestler and it never stuck. He got hot every once in awhile but the candle always burned out. Fans just didn't want him in that role. And if it wasn't for Bryan they would have tried him there again for WM XXXX\

    The key is to get someone over organically and not change their character and be malleable. Shawn's problem was they tried to make him white meat. To an extent that was Cena's problem but he was so damn over with a certain segment of fans that they could still use him as a cash cow and ignore the boos. Roman's issue is that he isn't a big business difference maker, however the company now has so many revenue streams that they will make money despite themselves. If Braun is hot and the fans keep supporting him, no reason to not make him chance.

    WWE has one primary problem. They want their guys to "prove it to them" and they want their main event champions to do a very specific role that Cena did. The whole point of wrestling is to enhance your talents strengths and cover their weaknesses. WWE will inevitably want Braun to go out and cut 20 minute comedy promos that he shouldn't do to open each Raw and do the 20 minute underdog main event style match which doesn't suit his character.
    Shawn dropped the belt as a face to Sycho Sid and still got the belt back as face. He later dropped the belt after he “lost his smile” left for a long while and came back as a heel which was a good long while after. It’s true, Shawn didn’t draw money as champion but the company was in dire straights not just because Shawn had the belt but a good chunk of their top names had jumped ship to WCW. I mean, apart from the Undertaker, which other top faces did WWE have when Shawn was in his first title run? Sure as heck wasn’t Marc Mero or Savio Vega.

    Shawn had a lot of power back then and the heel change was something that he wanted not necessarily what WWE pushed for (so much so that he screwed up Davey Boy Smith) in front of his home crowd in the UK. In fact, Vince McMahon wasn’t comfortable with what Shawn was doing with DX just before the Attitude Era kicked off fully.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Huh? Rock lost at X-7 and disappeared after the re-match in a cage on RAW that led to the Two-Man Power Trip. He showed back up before the Invasion angle was winding down, but business was already slowing down before that. Now, 2002 was an entirely different beast with Rock getting turned on by the crowd at WM 18 and it continued throughout the year after he came back and won the WWE Title in that triple-threat with Angle and Benoit, culminating in Hollywood Rock in 2003.
    Rock was starting to be positioned as the top face with Austin as heel. Rock took a brief leave because he was Filming the Mummy Returns. But the idea was that Austin as the heel aligning with McMahon and then Hunter would be the top heel on the show and a returning Rock would come back to get his comeuppance. The audience completely **** on the idea of Austin being the heel.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Shawn dropped the belt as a face to Sycho Sid and still got the belt back as face. He later dropped the belt after he “lost his smile” left for a long while and came back as a heel which was a good long while after. It’s true, Shawn didn’t draw money as champion but the company was in dire straights not just because Shawn had the belt but a good chunk of their top names had jumped ship to WCW. I mean, apart from the Undertaker, which other top faces did WWE have when Shawn was in his first title run? Sure as heck wasn’t Marc Mero or Savio Vega.

    Shawn had a lot of power back then and the heel change was something that he wanted not necessarily what WWE pushed for (so much so that he screwed up Davey Boy Smith) in front of his home crowd in the UK. In fact, Vince McMahon wasn’t comfortable with what Shawn was doing with DX just before the Attitude Era kicked off fully.
    Shawn was booed out of his hometown against Sid in the rematch to win the belt back. And Shawn wasn't drawing. Bret drew before Shawn. Shawn's run was the dangerous point. Shawn turned heel after taking time off, because by that point they already knew all signs were to make Austin the top face. That was the end goal. They knew Shawn wasn't working as the top face, they knew Bret was not worth his contract anymore, they were prepared to move on and make Austin.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Shawn was booed out of his hometown against Sid in the rematch to win the belt back. And Shawn wasn't drawing. Bret drew before Shawn. Shawn's run was the dangerous point. Shawn turned heel after taking time off, because by that point they already knew all signs were to make Austin the top face. That was the end goal. They knew Shawn wasn't working as the top face, they knew Bret was not worth his contract anymore, they were prepared to move on and make Austin.
    Bret didn't draw much either before Shawn's first run (if I remember correctly).

  7. #307
    Astonishing Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Rock was starting to be positioned as the top face with Austin as heel. Rock took a brief leave because he was Filming the Mummy Returns. But the idea was that Austin as the heel aligning with McMahon and then Hunter would be the top heel on the show and a returning Rock would come back to get his comeuppance. The audience completely **** on the idea of Austin being the heel.
    Yeah, they rejected heel Austin, but that's not when they turned on Rock. That came later and had nothing to do with X-7.

  8. #308
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    what's done is done though, there's no going back. they did it and it worked time to make the best of it.

    and if braun remains a midcard attraction it will all have been for nothing. you said he at times destroys multiple main event level guys at once, it makes those guys look even worse if they got destroyed by a midcarder.



    if they don't give braun the chance then those guys still looked bad for nothing. also we've seen strowman put somebody over in a near 20 minute match, and imo it was the best match he and roman had.

    i'm actually very surprised by your stance on this, usually you say nothing ever really hurts anybody and kind of make it sound like an accomplishment.



    i'd love another KO title reign, but honestly he's needs to be built up for it. right now he'd be a weak champion and while i'm sure he'd make the most out of it we've seen that already.



    ERMAHGERD LOLOLOLOL



    yeah, he didn't just do squash matches.





    every time orton organically reached top heel status hhh snuffed his candle out, either to make himself the top heel or as a face. the evolution story would've been 1000x better if hhh was kicked out and turned face. then when he punted mr mackman, again hhh fukt that all up.
    With or without the title, Braun at this point can probably be viewed as a main eventer by this point. And for the record I don't think he shouldn't win the world title. I just don't think it needs to be this Sunday with a MitB Cash in. I think for a dominant face champ, it's a weak way to win the title. It better fits KO.

    And I don't think it matters that much if KO is a weak champion, because he's that sort of heel. He knows how to milk that for heat and stay over. I think he's exactly the sort of character you want cashing in MitB. The opportunistic heel.

  9. #309
    Extraordinary Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    With or without the title, Braun at this point can probably be viewed as a main eventer by this point. And for the record I don't think he shouldn't win the world title. I just don't think it needs to be this Sunday with a MitB Cash in. I think for a dominant face champ, it's a weak way to win the title. It better fits KO.
    so what was this about??

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I absolutely agree that fans should complain if Braun has terrible matches and holds wrestlers down. All I'm saying is that if you are a fan pushing to have a green mediocre performer into the main event, you're helping to create a situation you may not like down the road. If you want a champion who is willing to put people over, you probably don't want a big no selling giant who regularly demolishes main event level stars 2-3 at a time. Vince almost certainly will be giving people what they want here... whether or not that works out for the better remains to be seen.
    they'e pushing for him to be in the main event while he's already a main eventer??

    And I don't think it matters that much if KO is a weak champion, because he's that sort of heel. He knows how to milk that for heat and stay over. I think he's exactly the sort of character you want cashing in MitB. The opportunistic heel.
    nothing matters, but i want KO to have a better title run than the last. he can still be an opportunist w/o being weak, just build him up a while.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Yeah, they rejected heel Austin, but that's not when they turned on Rock. That came later and had nothing to do with X-7.
    Rock got booed every time he faced Austin. He got booed facing Hogan the next year. My point is, Rock went up against other peer megastars and was rejected against them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Bret didn't draw much either before Shawn's first run (if I remember correctly).
    Bret didn't draw as much as Hogan but the business was healthy during Bret's early run and Bret was an incredible international draw

  12. #312
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    so what was this about??



    they'e pushing for him to be in the main event while he's already a main eventer??



    nothing matters, but i want KO to have a better title run than the last. he can still be an opportunist w/o being weak, just build him up a while.
    Braun is a guy that theoretically can main event... but he's not a guy that's being put in a position where he's got to main event PPVs. Give him the belt, and that will obviously change. When you're a world champion, you're usually going to have to do 20 minute PPV main events. And that's where his short comings will likely be exposed. As champ, he's likely going to have to do things that he's not necessarily all that good at. It's harder to hide or book around his short comings when he's the guy carrying the brand.

    And while I would like KO to have a better title run, I think it's more important that Braun have a strong title run than KO. Firstly because Braun is potentially being postioned as a top face, and secondly because KO is a good enough sports entertainer that he can still make a weak title win work. He's a good enough performer that he can protect himself and still keep the type of heat he wants.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Bret didn't draw as much as Hogan but the business was healthy during Bret's early run and Bret was an incredible international draw
    Yes but the roster still has big names. The likes of Randy Savage were still around.

    Shawn didn't have this until his third reign with the belt.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Rock got booed every time he faced Austin. He got booed facing Hogan the next year. My point is, Rock went up against other peer megastars and was rejected against them
    Was he booed at X-7? Even if he was (wasn't this in Austin's hometown) he was still white hot before and after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Was he booed at X-7? Even if he was (wasn't this in Austin's hometown) he was still white hot before and after.
    Yeah he was alot. Austin turned heel with McMahon and the audiences still cheered his beatdown of the Rock.

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