T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[Ezyo1000]

You don't need to be from a plance to be banished from it. A judge for example can banish media from a courtroom during a case... does't mean the media live in the court room. Just means they are forced to leave and aren't allowed back unless they are given permission.

You're using the term banish interchangeably with exile, which means to remove from ones home. All exiled people are banished, but not all banished people are exiled.

Banish: send (someone) away from a country or place as an official punishment

Thing is Tchalla didn't banish Klaw ever, he killed him. In all forms of his origin Klaw dies (or appears to die) he didn't banish him. And even then Look at the damn wording, he used upsurper, which an upsurper is someone who forcebly or illegally takes a position of power.... Its the wording he is using that misaligns with what is going on Canon wise. But let's forget all that.

[MindofShadow]

Having a debate with someone with such an incomplete knowledge of Black Panther is folly. Especially when people lacking in T'challa history refuse to acknowledge when they are wrong.

The ridiculous example of T'challa breaking WS brain washing is just... do better lol. Bast have mercy.


Especially since, the Knife of Chieftains was established by the Godfather... PRIEST. Vol 3, #29




This is a more true example of, "putting the knife where it belongs" considering T'challa actually succeeded. He killed Klaw in this form and was about to delete Klaw from history until a crowd of people stopped him. No bragging. No lack of focus. Pure 10 steps ahead T'challa with a bonus dose of rage, which is nice to see from T'challa here and there. If there is one person that breaks his focus even a bit and gets him emotion, it should be Klaw. Priest understood that because he's good at comics. Coates uses Thunderball to beat Klaw.

Hickman, who actually read Priest's run, pulled the knife from here. Coates, who has very little knowledge of canon pre-Hickman, just pulled it from Hickman. And considering it appears most of this thread didn't even know the Knife of Chieftain's was a thing before Hickman, I really doubt Coates knew it was a thing before hickman lol.

[MindofShadow]

To get away from this discussion for a moment, can I just say that it's hilariously weird that Marvel went out of their way to recruit an African American writer, renowned for his discussion of race in America, who in turn has spent much of his run in the (figurative) weeds?

Mixing the fantastic realities of comics with real world sociopolitical issues isn't easy, don't get me wrong. Priest walked a tight rope his entire run.

But Coates? He ain't even trying.

In casting Wakanda as Christopher Columbus, he casts demons and four armed creatures as aliens. He's cast T'Challa into the future to play with the X-Men's pink rock. And the Adversary? Don't get me started.

It's like we have the real Coates' lamer twin.

Naw, real Coates is incredibly pessimistic writer who has questions but never has real answers in his articles/talks/whatever. Which is fine in a non fiction setting where you are trying to put a spotlight on injustices. Starting a conversation on stuff is important.

It simply doesn't work in a fictional, super hero universe where stories have beginnings and ends and readers expect a resolution to the questions and problems presented.

He also seems to utterly lack any imagination whatsoever.

His two seasons of black panther fit this.

Season 1: "why would an advance nation have a monarchy?" good question. should be easily answered in a comic book setting where you have heroes, gods, lines of kings. I mean ****, it is a very popular theme in fiction where lines of kings are simply better men (Lord of the Rings jumps to mind for example. Even Aragorn, who barely had any kings blood left in him, was basically a super soldier compared to all other men). Unfortunately, he can't keep real life out of it and starts down the path of African stereotypes.

Coates can't see "black exceptionalism." It isn't part of him. He looks around and sees everything that is wrong, all the bad with none of the good. So when he takes over a franchise that is black exceptionalism x10000... it is like his brain had a mini aneurysm and refused to accept it. So instead we get rape camps, boko haram, using the doras "in all ways," evil men in power, weapons deals, despots, ect.

Did Coates ever answer the question that started season 1? Nope. Not even a little.

Season 2: where the hell is Bast? GREAT question. Something we have talked about in this thread constantly. HE DIDNT EVEN TRY TO ANSWER HIS OWN DAMN QUESTION lol. He literally went "we don't know" in the last issue. He also utterly ignored the issues in season 1 as well.


Dude is simply out of element. This ain't his thing.


Unfortunately, due to sales of season 1, this has empowered Marvel to continue to hire minority non comic writers to write their books. Marvel trying to capture that lightning in a bottle they caught with Black Panther while ignoring all the stuff that lead up to it. It's like there are no black, latino, or gay comic book writers out there or something.

[Mr MajestiK]

Having a debate with someone with such an incomplete knowledge of Black Panther is folly. Especially when people lacking in T'challa history refuse to acknowledge when they are wrong.

The ridiculous example of T'challa breaking WS brain washing is just... do better lol. Bast have mercy.


Especially since, the Knife of Chieftains was established by the Godfather... PRIEST. Vol 3, #29




This is a more true example of, "putting the knife where it belongs" considering T'challa actually succeeded. He killed Klaw in this form and was about to delete Klaw from history until a crowd of people stopped him. No bragging. No lack of focus. Pure 10 steps ahead T'challa with a bonus dose of rage, which is nice to see from T'challa here and there. If there is one person that breaks his focus even a bit and gets him emotion, it should be Klaw. Priest understood that because he's good at comics. Coates uses Thunderball to beat Klaw.

Hickman, who actually read Priest's run, pulled the knife from here. Coates, who has very little knowledge of canon pre-Hickman, just pulled it from Hickman. And considering it appears most of this thread didn't even know the Knife of Chieftain's was a thing before Hickman, I really doubt Coates knew it was a thing before hickman lol.

Well considering the fact that Hickman couldn't even be bothered to actually portray the knife properly, let alone refer to it by its proper title, is it any wonder that practically no one else in this thread remembered the "the Vibranium Blade of Chieftains."

Thanks for the solid and historically factual post.

[KOSLOX]

Naw, real Coates is incredibly pessimistic writer who has questions but never has real answers in his articles/talks/whatever. Which is fine in a non fiction setting where you are trying to put a spotlight on injustices. Starting a conversation on stuff is important.

It simply doesn't work in a fictional, super hero universe where stories have beginnings and ends and readers expect a resolution to the questions and problems presented.

He also seems to utterly lack any imagination whatsoever.

His two seasons of black panther fit this.

Season 1: "why would an advance nation have a monarchy?" good question. should be easily answered in a comic book setting where you have heroes, gods, lines of kings. I mean ****, it is a very popular theme in fiction where lines of kings are simply better men (Lord of the Rings jumps to mind for example. Even Aragorn, who barely had any kings blood left in him, was basically a super soldier compared to all other men). Unfortunately, he can't keep real life out of it and starts down the path of African stereotypes.

Coates can't see "black exceptionalism." It isn't part of him. He looks around and sees everything that is wrong, all the bad with none of the good. So when he takes over a franchise that is black exceptionalism x10000... it is like his brain had a mini aneurysm and refused to accept it. So instead we get rape camps, boko haram, using the doras "in all ways," evil men in power, weapons deals, despots, ect.

Did Coates ever answer the question that started season 1? Nope. Not even a little.

Season 2: where the hell is Bast? GREAT question. Something we have talked about in this thread constantly. HE DIDNT EVEN TRY TO ANSWER HIS OWN DAMN QUESTION lol. He literally went "we don't know" in the last issue. He also utterly ignored the issues in season 1 as well.


Dude is simply out of element. This ain't his thing.


Unfortunately, due to sales of season 1, this has empowered Marvel to continue to hire minority non comic writers to write their books. Marvel trying to capture that lightning in a bottle they caught with Black Panther while ignoring all the stuff that lead up to it. It's like there are no black, latino, or gay comic book writers out there or something.

You know X-O Manowar (2017) seems to be a much better version of what Coates is trying to do with Black Panther.

[XPac]

Banish: send (someone) away from a country or place as an official punishment

Thing is Tchalla didn't banish Klaw ever, he killed him. In all forms of his origin Klaw dies (or appears to die) he didn't banish him. And even then Look at the damn wording, he used upsurper, which an upsurper is someone who forcebly or illegally takes a position of power.... Its the wording he is using that misaligns with what is going on Canon wise. But let's forget all that.

That's ONE definition of the word. It can also simply mean to drive out of clear away. Again, a judge in a court room can banish reporters from a case. No one is being punished. They are simply being removed and not allowed to return without permission.

[XPac]

Having a debate with someone with such an incomplete knowledge of Black Panther is folly. Especially when people lacking in T'challa history refuse to acknowledge when they are wrong.

The ridiculous example of T'challa breaking WS brain washing is just... do better lol. Bast have mercy.


Especially since, the Knife of Chieftains was established by the Godfather... PRIEST. Vol 3, #29




This is a more true example of, "putting the knife where it belongs" considering T'challa actually succeeded. He killed Klaw in this form and was about to delete Klaw from history until a crowd of people stopped him. No bragging. No lack of focus. Pure 10 steps ahead T'challa with a bonus dose of rage, which is nice to see from T'challa here and there. If there is one person that breaks his focus even a bit and gets him emotion, it should be Klaw. Priest understood that because he's good at comics. Coates uses Thunderball to beat Klaw.

Hickman, who actually read Priest's run, pulled the knife from here. Coates, who has very little knowledge of canon pre-Hickman, just pulled it from Hickman. And considering it appears most of this thread didn't even know the Knife of Chieftain's was a thing before Hickman, I really doubt Coates knew it was a thing before hickman lol.

I agree that Klaw should be one of the few people who can break T'Challas focus (though Namor in Time Runs Out I think could credibly do that given what had happened prior to that, so I'm willing to give that a pass). But I think that ship has sort of sailed, given how many times BP and Klaw have encountered each other withoug him inciting any sort of real emotional reaction. Writers over the decades just seemed to have BP treat law like any other random villain by that point, which IMO is a HUGE disservice to their history. Here's the guy that murdered T'Challa's father and the SOB is freaking virtually unkillable. Even for T'Challa the frustration about that should deep down be driving the guy nuts, but they no sell the drama. It's such a waste. But by this point you almost can't fault writers for handling it that way, because that's the way it's been handled for decades.

But the thing is, you can make the argument that the attempt at killing Klaw was about as successful as the attempt at killing Namor. T'Challa won the fight. But for reasons he doesn't quite get the job done. You can credibly argue the Klaw knife thing might have been a better example, but I think they were just going for higher profile moments which fans remember.

[MindofShadow]

Even for T'Challa the frustration about that should deep down be driving the guy nuts, but they no sell the drama. It's such a waste. But by this point you almost can't fault writers for handling it that way, because that's the way it's been handled for decades.

Naw, F all that, writers should just do better. You don't have to follow up on **** writing with more **** writing.

But, anyway, from memory, I am not sure that is true.

Priest wrote that story obviously, full of rage and emotion.

Hudlin wrote Klaw and the first thing T'challa did when he got on the throne is demand his head and then killed him with prejudice.

After that... I don't recall a time Klaw was in a BP solo book. He wasn't in the rest of Hudlin's run, he wasn't in Liss run.

He showed up in the New Fantastic Four book, but I don't remember if there was any emotion behind it. Shuri saw Klaw in Klaws of the Panther and I think she immediately rushed him full of rage like an idiot and paid for it.

All the notable Klaw fights (origin story, vol 1, vol 3, vol 4) have a decent dose of emotion behind it.

What fights between Klaw and T'challa have been "emotionally bland?" What am I forgetting?

[MindofShadow]

Hell, since im on that subject, how many Klaw fights have their been? Off the top of my head I got:

- original appearance
- volume 1
- priest
- who is the black panther
- the new fantastic four
- coates

- over the edge #6
- cable #54

Where else?

[Cville]

Hell, since im on that subject, how many Klaw fights have their been? Off the top of my head I got:

- original appearance
- volume 1
- priest
- who is the black panther
- the new fantastic four
- coates

- over the edge #6
- cable #54

Where else?

The Ralph Machio one shot that came out in February.

[XPac]

Naw, F all that, writers should just do better. You don't have to follow up on **** writing with more **** writing.

But, anyway, from memory, I am not sure that is true.

Priest wrote that story obviously, full of rage and emotion.

Hudlin wrote Klaw and the first thing T'challa did when he got on the throne is demand his head and then killed him with prejudice.

After that... I don't recall a time Klaw was in a BP solo book. He wasn't in the rest of Hudlin's run, he wasn't in Liss run.

He showed up in the New Fantastic Four book, but I don't remember if there was any emotion behind it. Shuri saw Klaw in Klaws of the Panther and I think she immediately rushed him full of rage like an idiot and paid for it.

All the notable Klaw fights (origin story, vol 1, vol 3, vol 4) have a decent dose of emotion behind it.

What fights between Klaw and T'challa have been "emotionally bland?" What am I forgetting?

Surprisingly, they don't encounter each other all that much in solo books.

I thought their fight at the end of volume 1 was basically typical interaction between a hero and his rogue. T'Challa acknowledges that they have history and has been a problem for quite some time, but he doesn't act like a person wanting vengeance against the man that murdered his father. At the very start he finds Klaw helpless then just picks him up and hands him off to the Avengers. That might as well have been some random villain he's never met before. Not to knock the issue as a whole, as it's probably my favorite Klaw/BP right... but it undersells the potential drama in T'CHalla facing the man who murdered his father. Try to kill the SOB.

I recall them fighting when ULtrons Masters of Evil fought the Avengers. It's been awhile since I read that issue but similar to the fight in New Fantastic Four, I don't recall a whole lot of emotion there either. TO my recollection it was your typical hero vs villain fight. T'Challa on both occasions was completely prepped for KLaw and beats him in a few panels, so there's almost no room to insert drama there.

Maybe there are other indicents where they fought and I'm just not recalling the drama, but the Priest fight is the only one where I really got a sense that T'CHalla wants vengeance on the man who murdered his father. In all the other fights I recall, it's just a super hero wanting to take down a very dangerous threat. It doesnt' come off as personal enough for my tastes. T'Challa has maybe the best poker face in comics, so when you potentially have a character he hates so much that emotion can actually bleed through, I think that makes for good character interaction. To me at least.

I will say I felt Shuri got it right. SHe's a bit of a hot head anyways, so having any sort of poker face with Klaw would be tough.

[Ezyo1000]

Having a debate with someone with such an incomplete knowledge of Black Panther is folly. Especially when people lacking in T'challa history refuse to acknowledge when they are wrong.

The ridiculous example of T'challa breaking WS brain washing is just... do better lol. Bast have mercy.


Especially since, the Knife of Chieftains was established by the Godfather... PRIEST. Vol 3, #29




This is a more true example of, "putting the knife where it belongs" considering T'challa actually succeeded. He killed Klaw in this form and was about to delete Klaw from history until a crowd of people stopped him. No bragging. No lack of focus. Pure 10 steps ahead T'challa with a bonus dose of rage, which is nice to see from T'challa here and there. If there is one person that breaks his focus even a bit and gets him emotion, it should be Klaw. Priest understood that because he's good at comics. Coates uses Thunderball to beat Klaw.

Hickman, who actually read Priest's run, pulled the knife from here. Coates, who has very little knowledge of canon pre-Hickman, just pulled it from Hickman. And considering it appears most of this thread didn't even know the Knife of Chieftain's was a thing before Hickman, I really doubt Coates knew it was a thing before hickman lol.

See, this is how you have an effective counter argument. This here is a more accurate description of putting the knife where it belongs. But even then, Coates may as well translated it to "He who puts knives in fools chest cavities" at least it would of been midly funny. But
I ain't buying that he had prior knowledge of the blade pre-hickman

[Ezyo1000]

That's ONE definition of the word. It can also simply mean to drive out of clear away. Again, a judge in a court room can banish reporters from a case. No one is being punished. They are simply being removed and not allowed to return without permission.

You keep ignoring 1 Tchalla killed Klaw, he didn't Banish him
2 Klaw wasn't an upsurper.

[BlackClaw]

Naw, real Coates is incredibly pessimistic writer who has questions but never has real answers in his articles/talks/whatever. Which is fine in a non fiction setting where you are trying to put a spotlight on injustices. Starting a conversation on stuff is important.

It simply doesn't work in a fictional, super hero universe where stories have beginnings and ends and readers expect a resolution to the questions and problems presented.

He also seems to utterly lack any imagination whatsoever.

His two seasons of black panther fit this.

Season 1: "why would an advance nation have a monarchy?" good question. should be easily answered in a comic book setting where you have heroes, gods, lines of kings. I mean ****, it is a very popular theme in fiction where lines of kings are simply better men (Lord of the Rings jumps to mind for example. Even Aragorn, who barely had any kings blood left in him, was basically a super soldier compared to all other men). Unfortunately, he can't keep real life out of it and starts down the path of African stereotypes.

Coates can't see "black exceptionalism." It isn't part of him. He looks around and sees everything that is wrong, all the bad with none of the good. So when he takes over a franchise that is black exceptionalism x10000... it is like his brain had a mini aneurysm and refused to accept it. So instead we get rape camps, boko haram, using the doras "in all ways," evil men in power, weapons deals, despots, ect.

Did Coates ever answer the question that started season 1? Nope. Not even a little.

Season 2: where the hell is Bast? GREAT question. Something we have talked about in this thread constantly. HE DIDNT EVEN TRY TO ANSWER HIS OWN DAMN QUESTION lol. He literally went "we don't know" in the last issue. He also utterly ignored the issues in season 1 as well.


Dude is simply out of element. This ain't his thing.


Unfortunately, due to sales of season 1, this has empowered Marvel to continue to hire minority non comic writers to write their books. Marvel trying to capture that lightning in a bottle they caught with Black Panther while ignoring all the stuff that lead up to it. It's like there are no black, latino, or gay comic book writers out there or something.

The thing about pointing out problems but offering no solutions is exactly the kind of **** Colonel West was calling Coates out for. Marvel would be doing themselves a huge favor if they just kicked this clown to the curb already.

[MindofShadow]

The thing about pointing out problems but offering no solutions is exactly the kind of **** Colonel West was calling Coates out for. Marvel would be doing themselves a huge favor if they just kicked this clown to the curb already.

I don't mind it as much in non-fiction, real life **** because the first step in fixing a problem is identifying it and putting a spotlight on it.

But in fiction? Especially comic book super hero fiction? That doesn't work. There needs to be a resolution. THe hero has to have a solution.


Since it is fresh in my mind, look at Luke Cage season 2. There is a very real problem presented early in the season: Luke is just putting out fires. It's introduced in the first action sequence I do believe. Yes, he is doing good, but he isn't fixing ****. The real conflict of the season, outside of bustin' head, bushmaster, maria, and the super hero stuff is that he isn't fixing ****.

The season ends with Luke's solution to that problem. We will hopefully find out in season 3 if that solution works and the drama behind that.

If Coates wrote Luke Cage, he'd have luke at the end go, "idk man" fade to black