T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[XPac]

Coates initially had T'challa basically be regular human with a force push suit and then went and wrote the villains DOWN to that level. So you had Zenzi be a kinda empath but only negative emotions and Tetu taking 20 minutes to manipulate tree roots and then got knocked out of the "final boss fight" by a single spear.

He had zero rumble board mentality and it showed bad in season 1.

Coates flat out admitted fights and action were his weak point at the start of writing the book. For what it's worth, I do think he improved a bit in later seasons.

Though I didn't mind Tetu being taken out by the spirit spear. Magical weapons one hit KOing magical characters isn't all that uncommon. Would be nice if the spear was explained a bit more, but the showing itself was fine IMO. In RPG terms, human mages tend to be more controllers than Tanks. Dangerous because of all their tricks, but if you can just get to them they can often be taken out pretty easily.

[Rumble]

Coates initially had T'challa basically be regular human with a force push suit and then went and wrote the villains DOWN to that level. So you had Zenzi be a kinda empath but only negative emotions and Tetu taking 20 minutes to manipulate tree roots and then got knocked out of the "final boss fight" by a single spear.

He had zero rumble board mentality and it showed bad in season 1.

He seems to have learned his lesson now with how he's writing BP and those 2 seconds of Manifold, but that's like 3 years too late lol

I maintain zenzi/tetu should've been our wanda/quicksilver evil duo, with zenzi being the more redeemable anti-hero one

[Rumble]

2 on 2 tag team match BP/Shuri vs Tetu/Zenzi for the belt

If you gonna give Shuri all those weird ass powers, and you gonna give Zenzi all those weird ass powers, then obviously the two women should fight each other to see which powers are weirder. Even do the analogy thing where it's oppressed female-tupac street urchin vs empathetic but i'll stick kick your ass disney princess.

It's what we all want to see

[MindofShadow]

Coates flat out admitted fights and action were his weak point at the start of writing the book. For what it's worth, I do think he improved a bit in later seasons.

Though I didn't mind Tetu being taken out by the spirit spear. Magical weapons one hit KOing magical characters isn't all that uncommon. Would be nice if the spear was explained a bit more, but the showing itself was fine IMO.

It was just too damn quick. The main good and bad guy "fought" on one page lol.

The issue is that, to coates, T'challa vs Tetu wasn't the main fight. The main fight was T'challa vs the Monarchy. The philosophical "theme" was the real reason Coates wrote the book. Which I guess is cool for a novel but on panel in the comics... that wasnt explored well enough either to justify the action short comings IMO.

I have no problem with magic spears of doom but it literally appeared out of nowhere, with no hint at its origin or anything. It was just "oh hai, T'challa has a ghost spear now BOOM DEAD SUCK IT TETU" lol

He seems to have learned his lesson now with how he's writing BP and those 2 seconds of Manifold, but that's like 3 years too late lol

I maintain zenzi/tetu should've been our wanda/quicksilver evil duo, with zenzi being the more redeemable anti-hero one

If you JUST read BP season 1, you wouldn't even have a clue why Zenzi is around and has a hate boner for t'challla.

It took a back up story in a whole other book to get an origin.


It is weird... season one, in hindsight, was too compressed. Not enough time building brand new villains, not enough time exploring what happened to wakanda during the 8 month gap, not enough time explainig what the hell happend to the DM order, no enough time really diving into Monarchy vs whatever this new govt is now

Season 2 and 3 had the opposite problem so far of having redundant issues just to get the story number up to 12. Season 2 was just "portal, monsters, fight, close portal" on repeat while season 3 is just having T'challa bust heads with Killmonger shakes his fist over and over

[MindofShadow]

Black Panther #4- 30,951

Avengers #7- 65,851

Avengers #8- 58,060

[Mike_Murdock]

Question for the Fans...

How do you handle retcons in your head canon?

If one story brings up something... does it completely wipe out the original story? Does it only wipe out the aspects that are explicitely stated? How do you make it work in your head?

To use an example, T'challa's "becoming black panther" origin.

we have gotten four different variations from memory

- Avengers 87
- Kirby
- Hudlin
- Rise


So, Rise is the most recent one. Does that story, for you, completely wipe out the previous three stories? Or does it only wipe out aspects it 100% showed?

So, for example, I do not believe Rise showed shuri at all at the annual fight. Do you still consider shuri to be at the fight wanting to jump in?

Avengers 87 showed completely different stuff as it showed more of the "fight warriors, find herb, ect". Is THAT story still canon for the different stuff it showed? Including the fight with those goons at the end?

Thoughts?

I try to make it as consistent as possible, so I'll only minimally retcon. I also first ask whether it's a deliberate retcon or just a mistake. Assuming it's deliberate, the newer story generally takes priority, but not if one story is iconic and constantly referenced and the newer retcon is forgotten.

There are parts of Rise of the Black Panther that are easy to accept and I'm fine with that. On the other hand, Panther's Quest is essentially written out of continuity. Maybe that's necessary given how long ago the Apartheid regime fell in South Africa, but I'm on the fence with that. But the stuff about the disappearances and the connection to Killmonger is fine with me since it doesn't erase Panther's Rage.

This is a question I've thought the most about with Daredevil rather than Black Panther and could give plenty of concrete examples, but those are my general principles.

[MindofShadow]

I try to make it as consistent as possible, so I'll only minimally retcon. I also first ask whether it's a deliberate retcon or just a mistake. Assuming it's deliberate, the newer story generally takes priority, but not if one story is iconic and constantly referenced and the newer retcon is forgotten.

There are parts of Rise of the Black Panther that are easy to accept and I'm fine with that. On the other hand, Panther's Quest is essentially written out of continuity. Maybe that's necessary given how long ago the Apartheid regime fell in South Africa, but I'm on the fence with that. But the stuff about the disappearances and the connection to Killmonger is fine with me since it doesn't erase Panther's Rage.

This is a question I've thought the most about with Daredevil rather than Black Panther and could give plenty of concrete examples, but those are my general principles.

you have a better memory fo McGregor's stuff than I do so, do you remember any instance of Panther's Quest being referred to after Panther's Prey? Has any story ever referenced it?

[XPac]

I try to make it as consistent as possible, so I'll only minimally retcon. I also first ask whether it's a deliberate retcon or just a mistake. Assuming it's deliberate, the newer story generally takes priority, but not if one story is iconic and constantly referenced and the newer retcon is forgotten.

There are parts of Rise of the Black Panther that are easy to accept and I'm fine with that. On the other hand, Panther's Quest is essentially written out of continuity. Maybe that's necessary given how long ago the Apartheid regime fell in South Africa, but I'm on the fence with that. But the stuff about the disappearances and the connection to Killmonger is fine with me since it doesn't erase Panther's Rage.

This is a question I've thought the most about with Daredevil rather than Black Panther and could give plenty of concrete examples, but those are my general principles.

You bring up a good point about real life events effecting stories. Marvels sliding timescale almost has to retcon away events tied to real life events unless it cam be worked into the story somehow.

Cap couldn't have punched out Nixon or Regan. Either the president needs to change or it simply didn't happen.

[Ezyo1000]

Coates initially had T'challa basically be regular human with a force push suit and then went and wrote the villains DOWN to that level. So you had Zenzi be a kinda empath but only negative emotions and Tetu taking 20 minutes to manipulate tree roots and then got knocked out of the "final boss fight" by a single spear.

He had zero rumble board mentality and it showed bad in season 1.

Don't forget, before that he had Tetu get knocked on his ass when Akili ran up on him and hit him with his gun (lol?) Then Olympic flip away from the slow ass ground collapse.


As for your question above about Canon. It depends on what happens. For instance, Coates bullshit "I spied on the Avengers to learn because I'm a scientist at heart" is not Canon to me because it's stupid and goes against how Tchalla had been established.

For the challenge, I Canon both Hudlin's version with Shuri also being there, but Rises actual challenge system (ie the worthy opponent proves themselves through a gauntlet, fighting the best warrior's, the Dora's and then the current BP themselves. That really was a nice feat for T'Challa to establish his H2h prowess

[FLEX HECTIC]

The Oath...


Redjack: "C'mon man, it's a kids show why would I even go there?"

Flex Hectic: "Bruh, do it for me it would make me feel better!"

Redjack: "Okay let's do this!"

Flex pulls out a Priest Black Panther graphic novel as Redjack firmly lays his left hand over it and raises his right hand.

Redjack: "I Redjack, hereby solemnly swear that I will never ever forever ever not in any way shape or form depict in any episodes of my hit cartoon treehouse rape camps the end!"

Flex Hectic: "I feel so much better now!"

Redjack: "Now get off my lawn before I call the cops!"

Flex crosses his arms right over left over his chest as he departs smiling to himself at the small victory.

Flex Hectic: "Wakanda Forever!"

Redjack: "Yeah yeah whatever forever... BYE!!!"

Redjack walks back in the house shrugging his shoulders and shaking his head with a Lebron James Lakers jersey on, Big Baller Brand flip flops and black onsie feet pajamas with vibranium imprint patterns all over them!


Dear Fellow Wakandanians... You're Welcome!


Dear Redjack,

Thank you for your engagement with fans and keeping Black Panther fun you are now officially in my five!


Super Sincerely Flex

[Mike_Murdock]

you have a better memory fo McGregor's stuff than I do so, do you remember any instance of Panther's Quest being referred to after Panther's Prey? Has any story ever referenced it?

See, it would be the post-McGregor stuff where this question would have to be answered. Really, it feels like a question of whether Christopher Priest referenced Ramonda's time in captivity. I'm almost certain Reginald Hudlin did not. I'm not entirely sure off the top of my head when it was established that Ramonda actually isn't his birth mother after all.

All that being said, Ramonda being Shuri's mother was a good retcon to reconcile everything even if my preference is for her to not have been in Wakanda during T'Challa's formative years, forcing him to journey to find her in South Africa. Even if you leave aside all the apartheid stuff (which would thematically neuter the story), you still have the central premise of T'Challa traveling to another country to find his mother who was held captive.

[MindofShadow]

See, it would be the post-McGregor stuff where this question would have to be answered. Really, it feels like a question of whether Christopher Priest referenced Ramonda's time in captivity. I'm almost certain Reginald Hudlin did not. I'm not entirely sure off the top of my head when it was established that Ramonda actually isn't his birth mother after all.

All that being said, Ramonda being Shuri's mother was a good retcon to reconcile everything even if my preference is for her to not have been in Wakanda during T'Challa's formative years, forcing him to journey to find her in South Africa. Even if you leave aside all the apartheid stuff (which would thematically neuter the story), you still have the central premise of T'Challa traveling to another country to find his mother who was held captive.

I can't remember it ever being mentioned in priest. Maybe Beware knows one way or another.

[Bunai]

Question for the Fans...

How do you handle retcons in your head canon?


- Avengers 87
- Kirby
- Hudlin
- Rise

Thoughts?

- Klaw will always be a factor in T'Challa's origins. I can only remember the animated series that changed this aspect.

- Hudlin adding S'Yan really balanced out the transition from boy to king. So I appreciate that and wish he'd been used in the live-action movie instead, even if ruined his rep a bit.

- I like that Rise updated things. It works because it is a condensed story, but the part about Klaw double-crossing Wakanda works best as it ups their isolationist mentality.

So, my timeline would go.

* Bashenga leads his tribe and eventually becomes the Black Panther.
** Tribal split.
....Yada yada....
* T'Chaka's youth. Meeting N'Yami and eventually Ramonda.
* T'Chaka as an adult opening up parts of Wakanda for trade.
* T'Challa being suspicious of Ulysses but everyone chalks it up to childish natures.
* Ulysses returning some years later and attack Wakanda.
** T'Challa vowing revenge.
* S'Yan taking up the mantle until T'Challa is old enough.
** Wakanda closing his borders.
** T'Challa going on the traditional lone journey.
** Studying in North America.
** Returning to Wakanda to challenge S'Yan.
* Challenge day. T'Challa wins, of course.
* T'Challa decides to try and warm up Wakanda to the world again.
** Fantastic Four event.
** Avengers event.

And things carry on from there.

[Rumble]

Don't forget, before that he had Tetu get knocked on his ass when Akili ran up on him and hit him with his gun (lol?) Then Olympic flip away from the slow ass ground collapse.


As for your question above about Canon. It depends on what happens. For instance, Coates bullshit "I spied on the Avengers to learn because I'm a scientist at heart" is not Canon to me because it's stupid and goes against how Tchalla had been established.

For the challenge, I Canon both Hudlin's version with Shuri also being there, but Rises actual challenge system (ie the worthy opponent proves themselves through a gauntlet, fighting the best warrior's, the Dora's and then the current BP themselves. That really was a nice feat for T'Challa to establish his H2h prowess

Coates had Tetu beat T'Challa and the HZ in the forest, had them completely subdued by the tree limbs/vines... and then he simply walked away and let them go.... Just lazy **** that would make even bond-villains go WTF? lol. And of course Tetu goes to Ayo/Aneka later bc he needs help in confronting and killing BP...

Um... why not just try to kill him when you had him immobolized in your tree limbs? And then (as the writer) have BP show or do something to make it known he wasn't completely beat dead to rights? Yknow, actually apply good story telling and looking after your franchise character...

I remember people were stuttering about 'oh well maybe he knew he couldn't kill bp'... umm well how about you think of something logical for the villain to attempt... like, i dunno, cause an earth quake to drop them into a bottomless pit... which is exactly what he attempted to do to the HZ in the final couple issues. Tetu is this elemental boogie-man but he can't think of **** threatening to do with the ability to cause earth quakes, animate trees, and bring on rain, thunder, and lightning? Even if he fails, it serves as a good durability/survivablity feat for BP.

And thennnn, in their rematch, it ends with some magical spear ish that BP could've just led with the first time around, if that's all it took.

Damn, those were the good ol days

[Yaw]

True to an extent. Part of it is also getting current creators to invest in the mytho characters instead of bringing in characters from outside mthos to play a bigger role than the mytho ones.

After all, the biggest reason for BP 1's success was that it was inherently selfish. A self-contained, personal story. We wouldn't have had Okoye, Nakia, M'Baku, and Erik as the public adores them now if these mainstream (see: youtube) comic book "analysts" got what they proposed was necessary in shoe-shoring Cap, Ironman, Bucky, and Infinity War tie-ins into BP 1.

Hell, a lot of them didn't seem to learn their lesson, even long after the fact. i.e. You hear a lot of noise about how BP 2 should have Namor, or Dr. Doom, or that Kenyan woman. However, what BP 2 should do is continue cultivating and modernizing it's mytho characters and villains, just like BP 1 did.

At this point, in the comics, i imagine they are going to leave the mytho characters alone unless it is a satelite book. Has M'Baku appeared in anything since Baron Macabre ressurected him in that satelite book that i'm not sure is canon?

When I heard people saying Doom or Namor I just smh. Damn do people REALLY not get it? Let's just have BP2 be Black Panther, Cap and Iron Man versus Red Skull...