T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[Cville]

I don't think he necessarily wants the Jabari to be isolated from all of Wakanda. The point of conflict I suspect which will arise from M'Baku (and probably a lot of the other traditionalists in Wakanda) is be Wakanda not being in isolation from the rest of the world.

2 seconds after T'Challa opens up Wakanda's doors, Wakanda is invaded. Objectively speaking, I think you can argue T'Challa did the right thing... but I'm not 100% sure everyone is Wakanda is going to feel that way. M'Baku, despite his respect for T'Challa, might not be the most progressive thinking in the country.

But we'll see. Obviously we're just speculating here.

You mean two years later in a situation that if they didn't get involved half its population would have been dusted anyway?

[Ezyo1000]

I'm still of the opinion that T'Challa next enemy in the MCU at the moment doesn't need to be one that can match him physically. Simply because, T'Challa at the moment is borderline OP (not complaining, I love it).

Achebe is a good fit, and keep him as Achebe. No need for mystical enhancements. Just give me a crazy, highly intelligent and scheming guy. At the very least I'd make him physically threatening the way most James Bond villains are, or like Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character in MI3, or Denzel in The Equaliser. Maybe he can have tech or something that messes with T'Challa's senses and proves to be his weakness. Actually, now that I do think about it, Achebe would be a pretty great villain if he was a telepath or had Zenzi's powers. Kinda like Kilgrave.

But really, I just want this to be a mind game. Give me espionage, spies, politics. Something like Wakanda may have just let a terrorist sect into their borders by opening up, or T'Challa's outreach efforts across the world are being sabotaged. Something that deeply affects T'Challa as a person because they are the consequences of his actions (of good intentions) as king. Something that he has to quell not because he needs to save the world, but if he doesn't it makes him look bad. Something that really drives home that it's hard for a good man to be a king, but it's not impossible. His next conflict really needs to mean something to him because it's against what he believes in. If you have that, putting T'Challa's compassion for something on display, and adding his intelligence and skill as a politician, I think you can have a conflict that really stands out.

Achebe (with some character tweaking) works with this and with everything we know at the moment, makes a whole lot of sense. Zenzi and Tetu can work too but I think with Tetu in particular, it still leads into physical fight territory. And the two of them are just poor characters in a poor story. Mephisto is a weird one because Black Panther hasn't gone full on mystical yet, focusing more on spirituality. It can be added in different ways but I'm not too sure if Coogler wants to touch on that. Everything mystical about the BP mythos so far hasn't been given definite proof in the films.

I also like this idea. It becomes difficult though for super hero movies because everyone always expects a final Fight between the hero and the big bad, so it can be tricky to get it right so it has a strong ending without Tchalla necessarily having to punch his way to victory, which I think that's what Priest was wanting BP 1 to end.

But I don't want a Doctor strange ending either that just felt.. underwhelming, we watched him get killed in a dozen different ways till dormmamu gave up.. Eh. I guess they way it could work would be if achebe had someone like Kraven (as Coogler wanted to add in the first) as the secondary big bad to get punched out before he has a battle of the minds with achebe

[CCSlim]

maybe taskmaster can get a run for movie 2?

After playing Spider-Man video game....any villlian can work with good writing...

They made tombstone scary....


Do we want another story in Wakanda or have in T’Challa in the us/ world hoping.

Also won’t the fox rights be finalized in Jan 2019. They got the fantastic four rogues to use also.

[Blind Wedjat]

I don't think he necessarily wants the Jabari to be isolated from all of Wakanda. The point of conflict I suspect which will arise from M'Baku (and probably a lot of the other traditionalists in Wakanda) is be Wakanda not being in isolation from the rest of the world.

2 seconds after T'Challa opens up Wakanda's doors, Wakanda is invaded. Objectively speaking, I think you can argue T'Challa did the right thing... but I'm not 100% sure everyone is Wakanda is going to feel that way. M'Baku, despite his respect for T'Challa, might not be the most progressive thinking in the country.

But we'll see. Obviously we're just speculating here.

Technically it's been about two years since T'Challa revealed Wakanda as it is to the rest of the world by promising to share resources and setting up the outreach. We don't actually have any confirmation that T'Challa has set up refugee programs or allowing people from other countries into Wakanda for asylum. So we don't really know what T'Challa has done exactly.

Anyway, within those two years, M'Baku's and T'Challa's relationship seems to have even grown into men who regard themselves as brothers so I don't think that animosity is there. It can definitely change but at the moment I wouldn't say so.

[XPac]

You mean two years later in a situation that if they didn't get involved half its population would have been dusted anyway?

Like I said, I think Wakanda did the right thing by getting involved. It's the old Spider-Man adage... with great power comes great responsibility. I believe Wakanda SHOULD try and involve itself in the world. I just don't necessarily think all Wakandans share that view, and the invasion is a very possible starting point for that conflict to grow. But we'll see.

[XPac]

maybe taskmaster can get a run for movie 2?

After playing Spider-Man video game....any villlian can work with good writing...

They made tombstone scary....


Do we want another story in Wakanda or have in T’Challa in the us/ world hoping.

Also won’t the fox rights be finalized in Jan 2019. They got the fantastic four rogues to use also.

If marvel gets the rights to FF stuff early enough, I definitely think marvel should start planting the seeds for Doom. Not that I believe he should be the main antagonist for the BP movie... I think they can dig up a BP rogue to fit that bill. But I think they should start putting Dooms finger prints across the MCU here and there. Make the debut of their most iconic villain a big deal. Poor Doom deserves it after the shoddy treatment he's been getting from Fox.

[Blind Wedjat]

I also like this idea. It becomes difficult though for super hero movies because everyone always expects a final Fight between the hero and the big bad, so it can be tricky to get it right so it has a strong ending without Tchalla necessarily having to punch his way to victory, which I think that's what Priest was wanting BP 1 to end.

But I don't want a Doctor strange ending either that just felt.. underwhelming, we watched him get killed in a dozen different ways till dormmamu gave up.. Eh. I guess they way it could work would be if achebe had someone like Kraven (as Coogler wanted to add in the first) as the secondary big bad to get punched out before he has a battle of the minds with achebe

You know, yesterday I had the strangest thought (after watching the latest episode of Black Panther's Quest which was great btw Redjack):

What if we make the villain of the sequel Zemo? Or the two villains are Zemo and Achebe? Master manipulator, slightly unhinged and shady revolutionary Achebe breaks Wakandan Public Enemy number 1 Helmut Zemo out of prison. Two men allied together known for throwing countries and institutions into chaos.

[XPac]

You know, yesterday I had the strangest thought (after watching the latest episode of Black Panther's Quest which was great btw Redjack):

What if we make the villain of the sequel Zemo? Or the two villains are Zemo and Achebe? Master manipulator, slightly unhinged and shady revolutionary Achebe breaks Wakandan Public Enemy number 1 Helmut Zemo out of prison. Two men allied together known for throwing countries and institutions into chaos.

Zemo definitely works. He basically took KLaws role as the guy who murdered T'Chaka, so there's more personal issues with him than any other villain they can come up with.

I'm wondering if down the line they won't go the Masters of Evil Route with Zemo (though I don't think they would ever call them that). That would probably be for an Avengers film rather than any solo film. BUt maybe Zemo can be seen at the end of solo movies collecting the antagonists from the movies, the way Fury and SHIELD did with the Avengers.

[Cville]

I also like this idea. It becomes difficult though for super hero movies because everyone always expects a final Fight between the hero and the big bad, so it can be tricky to get it right so it has a strong ending without Tchalla necessarily having to punch his way to victory, which I think that's what Priest was wanting BP 1 to end.

But I don't want a Doctor strange ending either that just felt.. underwhelming, we watched him get killed in a dozen different ways till dormmamu gave up.. Eh. I guess they way it could work would be if achebe had someone like Kraven (as Coogler wanted to add in the first) as the secondary big bad to get punched out before he has a battle of the minds with achebe

I think it would have to be like Batman Forever. I like the idea as Kraven as the underboss fight. I would find a way to cast the Russian character from Agents of Shield. He kinda had a Kraven feel to him. To give him some credentials I'd have him kill M'baku. Wouldn't go for BP 3. Third movies tend not to be as good. Ragnarok being the exception.

[XPac]

I think it would have to be like Batman Forever. I like the idea as Kraven as the underboss fight. I would find a way to cast the Russian character from Agents of Shield. He kinda had a Kraven feel to him. To give him some credentials I'd have him kill M'baku. Wouldn't go for BP 3. Third movies tend not to be as good. Ragnarok being the exception.

Marvel movies had some pretty solid third movies.

Iron Man 3 hit the billion dollar mark. Ragnorak was probably the best Thor movie as you mentioned. And I think Cap Civil War knocked it out of the ball park... it arguably wasn't quite as good as Winter Soldier but was still one of the best marvel movies.

Avengers 3 is sort of tricky to rate. Obviously it did well. But it had such a bloated cast and was arguably only half a story.

[MindofShadow]

I'm still of the opinion that T'Challa next enemy in the MCU at the moment doesn't need to be one that can match him physically. Simply because, T'Challa at the moment is borderline OP (not complaining, I love it).

Achebe is a good fit, and keep him as Achebe. No need for mystical enhancements. Just give me a crazy, highly intelligent and scheming guy. At the very least I'd make him physically threatening the way most James Bond villains are, or like Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character in MI3, or Denzel in The Equaliser. Maybe he can have tech or something that messes with T'Challa's senses and proves to be his weakness. Actually, now that I do think about it, Achebe would be a pretty great villain if he was a telepath or had Zenzi's powers. Kinda like Kilgrave.

But really, I just want this to be a mind game. Give me espionage, spies, politics. Something like Wakanda may have just let a terrorist sect into their borders by opening up, or T'Challa's outreach efforts across the world are being sabotaged. Something that deeply affects T'Challa as a person because they are the consequences of his actions (of good intentions) as king. Something that he has to quell not because he needs to save the world, but if he doesn't it makes him look bad. Something that really drives home that it's hard for a good man to be a king, but it's not impossible. His next conflict really needs to mean something to him because it's against what he believes in. If you have that, putting T'Challa's compassion for something on display, and adding his intelligence and skill as a politician, I think you can have a conflict that really stands out.

I wonder if you can integrate Achebe into an Enemy of the State situation. Wakanda's outreach efforts + their weapon capabilities have lead to tension across the globe. Achebe uses this tension to push towards WW3/world chaos. He can further push tensions by sending assassins at T'challa while he is on diplomatic missions (and here is your chance to integrate known comic mercs like Taskmaster/Kraven or use old BP rogues like Death Tiger).

The problem with that, or with Achebe in general, is... who the hell could have that much power lol? Hell, T'challa has been shown multiple times that he has no problem crossing borders and eliminating people personally. WS, Nigeria, Klaue. How do you make Achebe a threat not to simply be foudn and eliminated while keeping it even halfway realistic? You have to be really careful not to get into "joker omniscient" issues. Zemo was incredibly borderline in that regard.

Maybe Achebe should be a combination of Achebe + Moses Magnum? War creates profits, so he pushes the world to the brink using the Wakanda boogyman as the catalyst. T'challa can't outright kill Moses/Achebe because he is a head of state.

So Tchalla is left juggling the world super powers + moses + his own inner circle who would gladly welcome a fight (they are warriors afterall) as he tries to find a way to get to Moses/Achebe without setting off a global incident?

You know, yesterday I had the strangest thought (after watching the latest episode of Black Panther's Quest which was great btw Redjack):

What if we make the villain of the sequel Zemo? Or the two villains are Zemo and Achebe? Master manipulator, slightly unhinged and shady revolutionary Achebe breaks Wakandan Public Enemy number 1 Helmut Zemo out of prison. Two men allied together known for throwing countries and institutions into chaos.

My only issue with this is the Zemo has no real connection to Wakanda or T'challa. He doesn't really care. T'chaka was simply collateral damage. He only cared about the Avengers/Stark/Cap

Mephisto is a weird one because Black Panther hasn't gone full on mystical yet, focusing more on spirituality. It can be added in different ways but I'm not too sure if Coogler wants to touch on that. Everything mystical about the BP mythos so far hasn't been given definite proof in the films.

Which is why I think it could work if you wanted BP2 is stand out. Go somewhere no other movie as gone so far.

[MindofShadow]

Zemo definitely works. He basically took KLaws role as the guy who murdered T'Chaka, so there's more personal issues with him than any other villain they can come up with.

.

Eh, murder is a little much. T'chaka was just collateral damage. Zemo had no emotional connection towards him at all.

I think it would have to be like Batman Forever. I like the idea as Kraven as the underboss fight. I would find a way to cast the Russian character from Agents of Shield. He kinda had a Kraven feel to him. To give him some credentials I'd have him kill M'baku. Wouldn't go for BP 3. Third movies tend not to be as good. Ragnarok being the exception.

Killing W'kabi might have more of an effect (he fucked up but he was stll T'challa's dude and Okoye's husband) without sacrificing someone potentially integral like M'baku

[XPac]

Eh, murder is a little much. T'chaka was just collateral damage. Zemo had no emotional connection towards him at all.



Killing W'kabi might have more of an effect (he fucked up but he was stll T'challa's dude and Okoye's husband) without sacrificing someone potentially integral like M'baku

Oh, I don't think Zemo gives a frack about T'Challa at all. I'm just saying from Wakanda's end of things, it's very personal. Yes, T'Chaka was just collateral damange… but for many that probably doesn't make it any less messed up. Heck, you can argue that makes it worse.

Course, it raises the question of why Zemo would even want to go a few rounds with T'CHalla or Wakanda. THat's something they would have to create as Zemo agenda was solely focused on the Avengers. Maybe if T'Challa becomes leader of the Avengers like he does in the comics, it'll be enough for Zemo to start something up... but he seemed pretty chill at the end of Civil War. He did his thing.

[Cville]

Eh, murder is a little much. T'chaka was just collateral damage. Zemo had no emotional connection towards him at all.



Killing W'kabi might have more of an effect (he fucked up but he was stll T'challa's dude and Okoye's husband) without sacrificing someone potentially integral like M'baku

W'kabi doesn't have any on screen hands. If Kraven can take M'baku in a hand to hand fight, it will make him more threatening. Then in the semi final scene he'll pull a Leaper vs Cap and Tchalla will fight him without the suit.

Then have some shamans resurrect M'baku with an evil spirit to make him a third movie villain if necessary.

[Rumble]

I'm still of the opinion that T'Challa next enemy in the MCU at the moment doesn't need to be one that can match him physically. Simply because, T'Challa at the moment is borderline OP (not complaining, I love it).

Achebe is a good fit, and keep him as Achebe. No need for mystical enhancements. Just give me a crazy, highly intelligent and scheming guy. At the very least I'd make him physically threatening the way most James Bond villains are, or like Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character in MI3, or Denzel in The Equaliser. Maybe he can have tech or something that messes with T'Challa's senses and proves to be his weakness. Actually, now that I do think about it, Achebe would be a pretty great villain if he was a telepath or had Zenzi's powers. Kinda like Kilgrave.

But really, I just want this to be a mind game. Give me espionage, spies, politics. Something like Wakanda may have just let a terrorist sect into their borders by opening up, or T'Challa's outreach efforts across the world are being sabotaged. Something that deeply affects T'Challa as a person because they are the consequences of his actions (of good intentions) as king. Something that he has to quell not because he needs to save the world, but if he doesn't it makes him look bad. Something that really drives home that it's hard for a good man to be a king, but it's not impossible. His next conflict really needs to mean something to him because it's against what he believes in. If you have that, putting T'Challa's compassion for something on display, and adding his intelligence and skill as a politician, I think you can have a conflict that really stands out.

Achebe (with some character tweaking) works with this and with everything we know at the moment, makes a whole lot of sense. Zenzi and Tetu can work too but I think with Tetu in particular, it still leads into physical fight territory. And the two of them are just poor characters in a poor story. Mephisto is a weird one because Black Panther hasn't gone full on mystical yet, focusing more on spirituality. It can be added in different ways but I'm not too sure if Coogler wants to touch on that. Everything mystical about the BP mythos so far hasn't been given definite proof in the films.

I think BP's next villain should exceed him physically, not match. Or should introduce a powerset that makes BP have to be more crafty. T'Challa was never in grave danger while enhanced and in his suit, except for at the very end of his fight with Erik... which he quickly reversed and stabbed Erik in the chest, after dominating Erik for the vast majority of that fight.

He can get punted by a roided rhino head on, fall 1000 feet down a canyon, eat a grenade launcher, and shrug a Klaw blast that destroys cars. Coogler basically had to depower T'Challa via ceremonial combat to raise the stakes. In BP 2, i'd like to see the level of competition raised instead of lowering BP to the competition again.

Tetu, the Baron, Solomon, they all give BP a different look. Which doesn't mean the focus of the movie has to be a superhero romp. Achebe as the mastermind with Tetu and Zenzi as his Pietro/Wanda would be perfect. Because it's still a comic book movie and it's more fun if T'Challa is punching someone. And it's more fun for the ladies if Okoye and Nakia are punching someone too.