T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[Ezyo1000]

I'm more talking defense than offense. Yes, he returns the force of the opponent back at them which theoretically should scale perfectly against whatever he's fighting. But the problem is if even Namor level opponents can't do actual damage to him, then it heavily restricts the treat level a large portion of the MU (and frankly his entire rogues gallery) presents to him. If a Killmonger and a M'Baku can't hurt him, then they don't really belong in a story with him. They can both stand there all afternoon punching away while T'Challa sits down to take a quick evening nap.

Of course, that would never happen because no writer would want to tell that story. So instead we get a suit that scales up and down with no explanation whatsoever. Killmonger and Man Ape will be credible threats, and WILL be able to hurt him because that's what needs to happen in comics. All I'm suggesting is an explanation is better than no explanation. Have him different gear against different opponents, and you're good to go.

No.. Because going by this logic then he should have a microweave and a regular McGregor clothe habit so of he is doing street level, goons can tag him.. that's incredibly lazy and a bad design. The Force push is literally the exact same thing as the regular habit Except he can redirect energy. This is only an issue for lazy unimaginative writers not interested in actual stakes and dumb the hero down to the villains bland level rather then try to give the villain credible feats.

Different gear means he loses stuff to limbo and weakens him. When was the last time shadow physics, thrice blessed armor or light armor made an appearance? That's what your suggestion will do to the force push. Plus it makes no logical sense for the natural progression of his tech to bot be on his person

[Ezyo1000]

Ezyo, Cville, MoS, this is that anime ish i was talking about. He noticed breh aiming at him with a sniper then dodged after breh shot the sniper.

And before that, he kicked the first guy which caused the gun to flail in the air, then kicked the flailing gun into the next guy. Then he ran down the truck and did the claw thing. Then he petted the deer like a good hunter in hxh.

I'm not sure if Redjack knows anime physics or humors half the dbz/mha/hxh references we throw out here, but he understands how to give BP what essentially amounts to anime physics. This is a good thing

Man who we kidding, we all know Redjack is just as much an anime fan as the rest of us, he be taking notes for sure

[XPac]

No.. Because going by this logic then he should have a microweave and a regular McGregor clothe habit so of he is doing street level, goons can tag him.. that's incredibly lazy and a bad design. The Force push is literally the exact same thing as the regular habit Except he can redirect energy. This is only an issue for lazy unimaginative writers not interested in actual stakes and dumb the hero down to the villains bland level rather then try to give the villain credible feats.

Different gear means he loses stuff to limbo and weakens him. When was the last time shadow physics, thrice blessed armor or light armor made an appearance? That's what your suggestion will do to the force push. Plus it makes no logical sense for the natural progression of his tech to bot be on his person

Honestly I don't believe the regular habit was able to shug off Namor level attacks. If it were, then you essentially have the same problem with why a punch can Cap would have any effectiveness whatsover if he can handle blows from Namor.

And yes, different gear does mean he loses stuff in limbo. COmics shouldn't work like Adam Wests utility belt where he has gear for every single possible eventuality. You don't necessarily want to use the same gear you use fighting the Hulk as you would fighting Kraven or Captain America. Ideally you want to be JUST powerful enough to deal with any threat, WITHOUT being overpowered (underpowered for story purposes is fine so long as you have a credible means to actually win in the end). THe point being you never want it too easy... a difficult situation to be in if T'Challa walks around at 100% every single fight.

Again, the upside of a character like him is that he can scale. Max him out to the point where Namor level beings can't hurt him and he suddenly becomes a character that won't fit in a lot of stories. He's better off having the versatility to go from street level to cosmic and everything in between. Namor level durability completely eliminates him from consideration in the lower end of the spectrum.

But does it make no logical sense for him to abandon a lot of his gear entirely? Sure. Why Hudlin decided to have him not reguarly use the anti-metal klaws and energy daggers, I don't know. Why his force field and teleportation vanished after Secret Wars is anyones guess (though honestly I don't think he needed those). Yes, it makes sense for him to keep everything and BP writers (even the better ones) aren't very good at that. I don't believe the sollution is to use everything though... I think that gets cluttered with redunency. Streamlining him to specific everydays tools and keeping the rest in reserve IMO makes more sense.

[Cville]

I thought we settled this months ago. All conceivable habits are stored in the claw necklace to be used as needed. Including fan art habits. Lol.

[Ezyo1000]

Honestly I don't believe the regular habit was able to shug off Namor level attacks. If it were, then you essentially have the same problem with why a punch can Cap would have any effectiveness whatsover if he can handle blows from Namor.

And yes, different gear does mean he loses stuff in limbo. COmics shouldn't work like Adam Wests utility belt where he has gear for every single possible eventuality. You don't necessarily want to use the same gear you use fighting the Hulk as you would fighting Kraven or Captain America. Ideally you want to be JUST powerful enough to deal with any threat, WITHOUT being overpowered (underpowered for story purposes is fine so long as you have a credible means to actually win in the end). THe point being you never want it too easy... a difficult situation to be in if T'Challa walks around at 100% every single fight.

Again, the upside of a character like him is that he can scale. Max him out to the point where Namor level beings can't hurt him and he suddenly becomes a character that won't fit in a lot of stories. He's better off having the versatility to go from street level to cosmic and everything in between. Namor level durability completely eliminates him from consideration in the lower end of the spectrum.

But does it make no logical sense for him to abandon a lot of his gear entirely? Sure. Why Hudlin decided to have him not reguarly use the anti-metal klaws and energy daggers, I don't know. Why his force field and teleportation vanished after Secret Wars is anyones guess (though honestly I don't think he needed those). Yes, it makes sense for him to keep everything and BP writers (even the better ones) aren't very good at that. I don't believe the sollution is to use everything though... I think that gets cluttered with redunency. Streamlining him to specific everydays tools and keeping the rest in reserve IMO makes more sense.

This doesn't even apply because he tanked a shot to the face without his mask on from Namor in tro. The regular habit handles Namor, Priest showed this, Hickman showed T'Challa in his Normal habit facing Namor and Evans showed this Aaron's showed this. Hell in immortal hulk it showed he can tank a blow From immortal hulk smacking him with a hulk buster arm. Yet T'Challa can still easily fit into any story. This is literally NOT stopping him from fitting into stories. Your literally saying that the natural progression upgrade, the force push, from. A defensive standpoint all of a sudden makes him too op for his rogues and will somehow stunt his use in stories, when the force push doesn't change anything defensively and offensively makes him more useful for high level threats.

And I abd others have stated multiple times that T'Challas Tech should be like what Priest had, simple but versatile and add elements to what he has that are natural progression and the rest you can tab away as tertiary gear.

[Pumbaa]

Kevin Feige talking bout BP, among other things.

[Daoud]

This is Feige's BAFTA acceptance speech from a few days ago.

Coogler was there too!

I think Kevin Feige may actually feel Black Panther is the best movie Marvel has made.

I appreciate the people he *AHEM* Assembled to produce the Black Panther film!
Kevin seems aware of the importance of the vision of Africa, through the fictional character of Black Panther, he helped bring to mass media.

Well Done!


Excelsior!

Daoud

[XPac]

This doesn't even apply because he tanked a shot to the face without his mask on from Namor in tro. The regular habit handles Namor, Priest showed this, Hickman showed T'Challa in his Normal habit facing Namor and Evans showed this Aaron's showed this. Hell in immortal hulk it showed he can tank a blow From immortal hulk smacking him with a hulk buster arm. Yet T'Challa can still easily fit into any story. This is literally NOT stopping him from fitting into stories. Your literally saying that the natural progression upgrade, the force push, from. A defensive standpoint all of a sudden makes him too op for his rogues and will somehow stunt his use in stories, when the force push doesn't change anything defensively and offensively makes him more useful for high level threats.

And I abd others have stated multiple times that T'Challas Tech should be like what Priest had, simple but versatile and add elements to what he has that are natural progression and the rest you can tab away as tertiary gear.

Black Panther (or anyone below Thing level durability) being able to take a shot from Namor without being at least KOed (or flat out killed) is honestly just bad writing. And yes, bad writing is a very convenient solution to power scaling. But it's not one I'm a fan of.

And no, Force Push won't stunt his stories. It POTENTIALLY could if it's consistantly applied... but it practically speaking won't because whatever threat he faces in a story will actually be a threat. Thats just how comics work. If he is punched by Killmonger will still effect him, even though it shouldn't if the suit is able to allow him to survive a punch from Namor. It doesn't make sense, but that's what will happen because that's what needs to happen if they want to continue using T'Challa in a variety of different types of stories. All I'm suggesting is having different gear works as an explanation as to why a punch from Killmonger is effective against him even if it shouldn't be. Rise retcons T'Challa to have had this technology all along, so it frankly needs to be established that he was using multiple suits without this tech since in many fights (basically all of them up to Coates run) he clearly did NOT have this ability. So continuity wise, you basically HAVE to say he's used multiple suit with different gear anyways.

[Marvell2100]

What I'm suggesting has nothing with this though. In fact, it's the opposite. Streamlining T'Challa base gear in his suit allows him to not allow him to pull out a gadget or new suit just to take out a higher level threat. It's what you are suggesting that leads to this: That T'Challa needs to have a different suit to deal with other level threats.

The thrice blessed armour is a redundant addition to T'Challa's gear that has no use that his suit can't have without overcompensating. This is the same issue Batman (that you bring up) that had recently that is a problem. Compare these two instances of Batman confronting Darkseid: When he bargains to rescue Supergirl and when he confronts him in the forged Hellbat armour.

The first instance, Batman only wears additional Apokaliptian armour and he uses his brains and a well played bargain to win against Darkseid




This is what Batman is about. Being the human underdog everyone underestimates but has the will and brain to do whatever it takes to win.

Batman in the Hellbat armour that's forged by the entire Justice League and can beat them all (having most of their abilities) and can also beat Darkseid is not what Batman is about in my opinion. This is the kind of thing Tony Stark would do, and why I'm generally against T'Challa having any additional sort of armour.

And just to finalise: Black Panther is not Batman, nor does he need to be restricted in that idea of being like Batman. Batman is a regular human, a street vigilante (who is good enough to be a league member) and a detective. T'Challa is a king of the most technologically advanced human nation on earth, is an enhanced warrior trained from birth, and is the avatar of the god of his people. That alone puts him above what Batman is defined as. There's no reason why T'Challa at his base level shouldn't be handling more powerful threats with a combination of his superior intellect, his enhanced stats, his almost unparalleled skills, and his access to some of the best technological innovations on Earth. That's who he is.

Well said. BP doesn't need multiple versions of a suit to take on various opponents. That's Tony's thing. It doesn't matter who Cap takes on, he just carries his shield.

[XPac]

Well said. BP doesn't need multiple versions of a suit to take on various opponents. That's Tony's thing. It doesn't matter who Cap takes on, he just carries his shield.

He used a specialized suit to fight Cho when he was Hulk, so he does seem willing to take a page out of Tonys playbook in this regard. And under Hudlin he did have light weight armor when he faced other armored opponents (Iron Man, Doom the first time, and Killmonger). So it's established that he will use different suits on occasion. It's very infrequent though.

[Ezyo1000]

Black Panther (or anyone below Thing level durability) being able to take a shot from Namor without being at least KOed (or flat out killed) is honestly just bad writing. And yes, bad writing is a very convenient solution to power scaling. But it's not one I'm a fan of.

And no, Force Push won't stunt his stories. It POTENTIALLY could if it's consistantly applied... but it practically speaking won't because whatever threat he faces in a story will actually be a threat. Thats just how comics work. If he is punched by Killmonger will still effect him, even though it shouldn't if the suit is able to allow him to survive a punch from Namor. It doesn't make sense, but that's what will happen because that's what needs to happen if they want to continue using T'Challa in a variety of different types of stories. All I'm suggesting is having different gear works as an explanation as to why a punch from Killmonger is effective against him even if it shouldn't be. Rise retcons T'Challa to have had this technology all along, so it frankly needs to be established that he was using multiple suits without this tech since in many fights (basically all of them up to Coates run) he clearly did NOT have this ability. So continuity wise, you basically HAVE to say he's used multiple suit with different gear anyways.

No... Its not bad writing.. basically what your saying is that if Tchalla is going to fight Kilmonger, he is going to say "Hey hold up let me get my clothes weave ob so you can punch me in the face and it will hurt" then go to Namor and say "alright submariner I'ma bust out my thick Vibranium suit.. no. And it doesn't matter what rise retcon because no one is to make a fuss. Your basically trying to use a Comic coming out 20 years after the microweave was brought in as a reason to say the MUST have different gear. And Even then what your saying. Still doesn't matter. He tanked hits from Namor in Priest run And Rise. It's been established that he can fight Namor without getting one shot.

T'Challa doesn't need multiple suits and different gear, he NEEDS standard gear that makes natural progression occasionally and a writer who can use his standard gear on orthodox and unorthodox ways.

And having that stuff for a special case isn't the same as having it be a part of his character to always change his gear.

[XPac]

No... Its not bad writing.. basically what your saying is that if Tchalla is going to fight Kilmonger, he is going to say "Hey hold up let me get my clothes weave ob so you can punch me in the face and it will hurt" then go to Namor and say "alright submariner I'ma bust out my thick Vibranium suit.. no. And it doesn't matter what rise retcon because no one is to make a fuss. Your basically trying to use a Comic coming out 20 years after the microweave was brought in as a reason to say the MUST have different gear. And Even then what your saying. Still doesn't matter. He tanked hits from Namor in Priest run And Rise. It's been established that he can fight Namor without getting one shot.

T'Challa doesn't need multiple suits and different gear, he NEEDS standard gear that makes natural progression occasionally and a writer who can use his standard gear on orthodox and unorthodox ways.

And having that stuff for a special case isn't the same as having it be a part of his character to always change his gear.

It's also established that Daredevil can take a shot from Namor without getting shotted. The problem isn't that this doesn't happen in comics... the problem is that it doesn't make sense. But it's comics... that sort of thing happens. I get that. I'm merely suggesting that when an actual explanation can occur outside of bad writing, might as well go with that.

And in this case, an easy explanation is that the kinetic absortion feature doesn't exist in all his suits. Given we've seen no evidence of it till Coates run (because obviously it doesn't exist yet, despite it being invented prior to everything we've seen up to that point), it's therefore logical to assume he does in fact have multiple suits. Some without it, and at least one with it. To say he's had this ability the entire time with the suits hes wearing obviously wouldn't make sense.

But you're right... no one makes a fuss out of any of this, which is why there's no reason for marvel do to anything. They can continue to have the suit be as effective or ineffective as it needs to in the story, because to 99.99% of the readers it doesn't matter. It doesn't make sense and is lazy writing... but since no one makes a fuss out of it anyways, there's no reason not to do it unless a writer feels otherwise.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

[Jabare]

that cosplay is fire!

Y'all please check out the latest BP episode it is so much fun. This show has become really special after the last two episodes. If the rest of the season builds on this momentum I'm gonna have to buy Redjack a drink.


Also thanks for sharing those videos Pumbaa and Daoud. Must be good to be Kevin Feige. Even if we don't like every MCU film we've at least liked a few them. Man is bringing my childhood and lots of other peoples childhoods to the big screen. Half these characters I would never have dreamed would get their own films 15+ years ago. At the moment this kind of inspires me to go out and see/support Captain Marvel. First trailer didn't blow me away but Feige and Disney have established so much goodwill. I wonder if it will pull Wonder Woman numbers. Went with my mom to see that (dad was not feeling it ). Thats how you know Black Panther was a good film. My father who doesn't even like Superhero films or really care for the new Star Wars films heavy CGI movies. He really liked that film. One of my oldest friends who basically lives under a rock and doesn't even watch MCU films just adores the Black Panther more and dressed up as Killmonger for Halloween.

[Blind Wedjat]

I don't really get where you're getting at XPac.

I'm pretty sure T'Challa during his Stan Lee/McGregor days didn't have a Vibranium weave. I'm pretty sure Priest gave him the suit (as well as other tech gear like the Kimoyo card, energy daggers and energy dampening soles) because he felt it was only natural that the king of a technologically advanced nation should be running around in something more than just regular spandex (that seemed to get torn all the time). T'Challa has pretty much unlimited access to Vibranium, so why shouldn't he use it to the fullest. That was how Priest thought and that's how we ended up with the "classic" and definitive loadout, so to speak.

However, I and Ezyo (and others) are simply talking about the natural progression of powers and abilities that has happened every other character. The limits of Superman's strength and display of other powers gradually increased over decades. Batman has gone from being a guy in a Halloween costume to a man who has mastered 127 martial arts, and constantly has shown increased intellect and access to technology, particular by having a more and more advanced Batsuit. Nobody will outright say the earliest versions of these characters are the definitive and best ones, and these natural progressions are largely accepted because they both make sense and don't take away from who the character is. Hell, some characters like Namor lose some of their abilities because they've aged badly or don't make sense. You really think characters like the Hulk and Aquaman were always as strong as they are now?

Personally, I feel as though what I have been suggesting does not take away from who T'Challa is at all. Having a Vibranium suit that can absorb energy from powerful blows should mean just that. If blows from Killmonger and Namor don't hurt T'Challa as much as they would if they hit his bare skin, I don't see why it should be considered a problem. That's the point of having armour, and back when T'Challa could take blows from the Hulk in his suit, Nightshade was able to work around by using a chemical the melted off his suit, and a bloodlusted Iron Fist destroyed parts of it by hitting it several times in quick succession. It's not impossible to beat T'Challa in a Vibranium suit. People would just have to be smarter with it. It's like being mad most people wouldn't beat the Hulk in a fistfight even when there are other ways to do so.

The kinetic energy absorption thing is no big deal either. In the MCU, T'Challa was taken out by Killmonger using a grenade launcher, a charging rhino, and Thanos. All of these three examples had the suit be overloaded with energy which is why he was knocked down. Klaw's sound canon was able to dissipate the energy in the suit, and Shuri's panther blasters were affecting Killmonger's then enhanced hearing. And T'Challa was able to beat Killmonger who was wearing the same kind of suit by using the mine train's sonic destabilisers to affect his suit and expose his skin. So again, it wouldn't be impossible to beat him if he had that suit. Some writer just has to establish a set of weaknesses that can be worked around. Which is why Superman has Kryptonite, magic and red suns.

The point I've been trying to make is that giving T'Challa different suits for different occasions is not who he is. T'Challa isn't the "I got beat by X so I gotta make a new suit or use a different one that can beat X". Iron Man is first and foremost an inventor which is why he does that most of the time. T'Challa on the other hand is first and foremost a warrior. He should be able to fight and have a victory over his enemies with the tools he has at his current disposal. If he can't do that for most of his rogues, then he's an unprepared hero and not fit to be Black Panther. You don't see Batman whipping out a new device every time he fights a different member of his rogues. He uses what he has because it is versatile and functional enough to handle them. That's what it should be about. You achieve this by having a standard which you naturally progress over time as tastes and the times change and evolve, as well as concepts of science and sci-fi evolve.

Having this doesn't mean T'Challa can't be beaten. This is what people who constantly accuse T'Challa of being OP or a Mary Sue fail to understand because they can't think creatively. There are still many ways one can come up with a successful attack plan on T'Challa is a writer is actually willing to think of one that makes sense. The problem is that most BP writers now don't have that mentality.