T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[DigiCom]

To be completely honest, it is a shock. They took a person unfamiliar with the medium, who has little knowledge of the character and didn't care for him and made it clear a multitude of interviews, never wrote a comic or fiction before, and was given the highest profile Black Character with pretty much free reign to tell whatever story without editorial interference and no experienced co writer or consultant to help...

Not to me. I find it really easy to predict what Marvel editorial will do. I just imagine the most tone-deaf & idiotic idea....

[XPac]

Honestly, I'm surprised to hear you say this because, as an outsider to the business, it always seemed clear to me that Marvel (and, to be fair, DC) has no long-term vision at all. They've shown a remarkable lack of interest in tending to their IP and building an audience like editorial did in the old days (in my case, the 80's).

Instead, it all looks like stunts designed to attract press attention, and gimmicks that pump up short-term sales. They spend weeks, if not months, promoting the idea of Marvel Legacy and returning to the original numbers... and then, after hitting a few anniversary numbers, relaunch the books again.

They hype the relaunch of the First Family of the Marvel U, 57 years to the day after their first appearance, with midnight releases and 48 variant covers... and the team isn't even reunited in the issue.

And they see how popular T'Challa was in CA:CW... and give the book to a high-profile black writer who has never even written fiction.

Oh, and TNC doesn't have a Pulitzer... he was nominated in the General Non-Fiction category, but lost. He does have a National Book Award & a MacArthur "genius grant", but that hardly makes him qualified to write a major comic.

But he has press appeal....

It's probably both.

It's not secret that marvel will try various stunts to attack press attention and gimmick short term sales.

But that doesn't mean they don't have long term visions. These are large successful companies. They are going to plan things out well in advance. Doesn't of course gurantee everyone will like what they have planned or that things can't be tweaked down the line for whatever reason... but because this is a shared universe with annual big events you basically HAVE to work that way.

[MindofShadow]

Honestly, I'm surprised to hear you say this because, as an outsider to the business, it always seemed clear to me that Marvel (and, to be fair, DC) has no long-term vision at all. They've shown a remarkable lack of interest in tending to their IP and building an audience like editorial did in the old days (in my case, the 80's).

Instead, it all looks like stunts designed to attract press attention, and gimmicks that pump up short-term sales. They spend weeks, if not months, promoting the idea of Marvel Legacy and returning to the original numbers... and then, after hitting a few anniversary numbers, relaunch the books again.

They hype the relaunch of the First Family of the Marvel U, 57 years to the day after their first appearance, with midnight releases and 48 variant covers... and the team isn't even reunited in the issue.

And they see how popular T'Challa was in CA:CW... and give the book to a high-profile black writer who has never even written fiction.

Oh, and TNC doesn't have a Pulitzer... he was nominated in the General Non-Fiction category, but lost. He does have a National Book Award & a MacArthur "genius grant", but that hardly makes him qualified to write a major comic.

But he has press appeal....

Legacy was a clusterF.

Maybe it was because of the Alonso getting fired and CB Yoshida coming in, but how do you do a big tease Legacy issue and follow up on NONE of it for months lol?

[DigiCom]

It's probably both.

It's not secret that marvel will try various stunts to attack press attention and gimmick short term sales.

But that doesn't mean they don't have long term visions. These are large successful companies. They are going to plan things out well in advance. Doesn't of course gurantee everyone will like what they have planned or that things can't be tweaked down the line for whatever reason... but because this is a shared universe with annual big events you basically HAVE to work that way.

Oh yes, I'm sure they have things planned out well in advance. That's why there hasn't been a single Doctor Strange solo arc that didn't have him depowered in some way since his movie came out.

That's why Thor was running around with an axe refusing to use his first name when RAGNAROK came out.

That's why they spent months with Captain America as a HYDRA-affiliated dictator.

That's why Shuri has been playing magical plot-device for YEARS... until they discovered that the Shuri everyone actually LIKED was closer to her Hudlin portrayal.

That's why in one book, Storm was given a (temporary?) power-up and turned into a "true goddess", and in another, she's trying to cope with a completely DIFFERENT power-up that's made her a goddess.

That's why they relaunched the BP book with a completely new status quo... that STILL doesn't align with the most profitable solo superhero movie IN HISTORY.

I don't know if the Marvel publishing arm is "successful", thanks to the very same gimmicks I spoke of earlier. But I SERIOUSLY doubt they have a long-term plan outside of this:

[Digifiend]

David Walker
Luke Cage
Luke Cage & Ironfist
US Avengers
Nighthawk (sort of)

It was Occupy Avengers. U.S.Avengers is by Al Ewing.

By the way, guys, check out Exiles. A Wild West version of T'Challa was in this week's issue and will be in the next one.

[XPac]

Oh yes, I'm sure they have things planned out well in advance. That's why there hasn't been a single Doctor Strange solo arc that didn't have him depowered in some way since his movie came out.

That's why Thor was running around with an axe refusing to use his first name when RAGNAROK came out.

That's why they spent months with Captain America as a HYDRA-affiliated dictator.

That's why Shuri has been playing magical plot-device for YEARS... until they discovered that the Shuri everyone actually LIKED was closer to her Hudlin portrayal.

That's why in one book, Storm was given a (temporary?) power-up and turned into a "true goddess", and in another, she's trying to cope with a completely DIFFERENT power-up that's made her a goddess.

That's why they relaunched the BP book with a completely new status quo... that STILL doesn't align with the most profitable solo superhero movie IN HISTORY.

I don't know if the Marvel publishing arm is "successful", thanks to the very same gimmicks I spoke of earlier. But I SERIOUSLY doubt they have a long-term plan outside of this:

Ultimately yes, the end result of any short or long term planning should be getting more money.

But I don't the things you cite necessarily mean they don't plan things in advance... it just means you don't necessarily like or agree with what we ended up having.

I'm sure the Hydra Cap thing WAS planned well in advance as it clearly ran through several events before culminating into it's own. Anytim events are involved (let alone multiple events), there's a lot of moving parts that need to be addressed well in advance because multiple books are effected.

In the case of Shuri no... I don't think they necessarily think marvel editorial had some plan for her specifically that was left to whatever writer was doing the BP stuff. She's a supporting character, so I don't imagine any sort of road map was created for her years ago or anything like that. I think the bigger long term planning is more for the broaders issues they need to address.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think the problem is that they clearly have long term plans, but that they don't bother to stick with them. The second something shiny comes along, something that might garner media attention, they lunge for it.

I'd point to Sam Wilson's time as Cap.

Under Rick R, the title built up a strong Hydra subplot, with Baron Zemo at the fore and a possible traitor in the hero community.

Then comes Nick Spencer, who does a big Hydra arc with Zemo at the fore...but does it in such an amazingly piss poor way that it's obviously not a continuation of the subplots of Rick R.

Marvel has ADD, focused on media attention and little else.

[Redjack]

BIG plans, years out, for the WHOLE company and products. This doesn't mean they are METICULOUS in detail.

Hypothetical - It's 2017 and we know we're going to be doing the FROBUSH MAN movie in 2020 with Jim Carey in the lead. Probably a goodies to get the character back into the comics- small at first- maybe a side character in one of the Avengers or X books. THEN we need at least one mini to come out during the press push for the movie.Editors, find writers to pitch us stories that will fit into what we have generally planned for the movie. Obviously they can't give movie character or plot details but, something fun that willet folks hyped up. We like when the comics fans are hyped because they give "street cred" to new movies and TV product.

The Frobush man comic doesn't need to match the upcoming movie except in the most generic way and, if we can get a "name" writer or wrier/artist team, so much the better. Again, it's about heat, not story, precisely. What about that Jack Black, he's funny as hell and the tone of his movies is right for Frobush man? Perfect. Ask him he he wants to pitch us. Yay. he does. Put him in the mix.

Writers pitch- ALL the stories are great but only ONE- Jack's- coincidentally fits the general thrust of what's going to happen in the movie and the advertising scheme so that's the one that's bought. The writer isn't given details or hard directives (unless they are) except to INCLUDE something that might be movie-important or to EXCLUDE something else for the same reason.

The book comes out- lots of fans dig it. It gets love from the critics. There's even some controversy sizzle - is Frobush Man an undocumented Immigrant? and the book goes forth.

Fan theories abound about the creation of the book and Jack's m,otications for writing it, especially from the fans of Frobush Man from BEFORE all this movie business. Some are pretty harsh. Some are racist. Some are straight-up crazy. Almost none are right. The movie blows up and there's a sequel coming but the comic, which isn't DIRECTLY tied to the movie, it's plot or characters, goes on as it had been planned.

This is just an hypothetical but it's kind of how it works. Things get planned last the top but the mechanics of how to implement the plans are not as precise as the audience might expect. Neither in the good ways or the bad. It's sort of like the Execs are the Pentagon, the Editors are the field commanders and the Creatives are the front-line soldiers.

Facts on the front are different than they are in the planning rooms but the plans go forward AS PLANNED until there's a chance to course correct.

Make sense?

[DigiCom]

Make sense?

Sadly, yes.

[Ezyo1000]

Thanks for that. I've been posting on CBR since LONG before any success so it's hard for me to truly participate in forums the way i like to now that I live backstage.

Let me say this- these corporations have plans that go years out. Long before they're offering anybody jobs to write something. When i found out David was in the running I assumed I was out. Neither of us even knew Coates was in the mix until the announcement. I can see how the company thought he was the right bet- huge media attention, a freaking pulitzer, finger tapping the blackgeist (my word) HARD.

Yeah, his Panther take is a discussion of real world Africa with Wakanda as a proxy and that's going to ruffle a lot of feathers because Wakanda's supposed to be Black Asgard.

But the company wanted that take. It's not like he lied to them about what his plan was. And it's not poorly written. It's just WAY off what a lot of folks expected from a Panther book. I pitched two entirely different takes and I'm betting Walker did as well. I really thought David would be the one.

The way i look at it is we got Movie Panther, Comics Panther and soon, Toon Panther. Between us, every fan should find something to love.

(And, yeah. I think everybody's going to love toon Panther.)

And that's the problem I see it. Coates take is what what racist white reader's love to see. Wakanda, which is shown as the Pinnacle of Black excellence, the shinning light of human potential in terms of balancing spirituality and technology, and a place free of all the offensive stereotypes real world Africa faces, and Coates goes and crams nearly every racist stereotype he can into Wakanda. Of course it's going to make people angry because that's NOT what Wakanda is at all.

I wouldn't even say it's supposed to be Black asgard as it's different. Wakanda is an uncolonized African nation that was able to develop and hold true tonits culture and advance.

Coates however took all the stuff racist fans complained about Wakanda and gave them the "safe" unthreatening Africa they are used to seeing on media. Treehouse Rape camps, Black dysfunction, gender inequality, women bred
By men to be given to other men like property, a king apparently too busy to deal with anything so he lets his nation go to crap and then let's in KNOWN despots to get advice from them just to see what they would say... Black men vs Black women. I mean nearly every stereotype. Then has at the end Shuri tell victims of Rape that they should of accepted their Fate and been raped and killed so long as Wakanda stands?

I mean there is a reason folk's like movies like 12 years a slave and why Black panther ruffled so many peoples feathers..

And if marvel higher uos truly thought this take of Wakanda was the best course.. then Lord have mercy.. that is the most tone deaf idiotic thing they could do.

(I do agree though what I have seen I will definitely love toon panther)

[Redjack]

i wish i could respond to this in a more explicit and fact-filled way but I'm not allowed to discuss any of the real inner workings. Contracts.

Let's just say that the plot details of the comic are less important than the existence and GENERAL popularity of the comic. No one is sitting down saying "Let's break Wakanda because them damned Africans are too strong." We should always assume everyone is trying their best to put out something great, without malice. They might fail (being human, of course they will be failing someone pretty much all of the time.).

I think there's room for Coates' version of the Panther. It's not my version but, like I said, if I'd got the book, some of you guys would be really mad at me too. Like REALLY mad (evil laugh).

[Ezyo1000]

BIG plans, years out, for the WHOLE company and products. This doesn't mean they are METICULOUS in detail.

Hypothetical - It's 2017 and we know we're going to be doing the FROBUSH MAN movie in 2020 with Jim Carey in the lead. Probably a goodies to get the character back into the comics- small at first- maybe a side character in one of the Avengers or X books. THEN we need at least one mini to come out during the press push for the movie.Editors, find writers to pitch us stories that will fit into what we have generally planned for the movie. Obviously they can't give movie character or plot details but, something fun that willet folks hyped up. We like when the comics fans are hyped because they give "street cred" to new movies and TV product.

The Frobush man comic doesn't need to match the upcoming movie except in the most generic way and, if we can get a "name" writer or wrier/artist team, so much the better. Again, it's about heat, not story, precisely. What about that Jack Black, he's funny as hell and the tone of his movies is right for Frobush man? Perfect. Ask him he he wants to pitch us. Yay. he does. Put him in the mix.

Writers pitch- ALL the stories are great but only ONE- Jack's- coincidentally fits the general thrust of what's going to happen in the movie and the advertising scheme so that's the one that's bought. The writer isn't given details or hard directives (unless they are) except to INCLUDE something that might be movie-important or to EXCLUDE something else for the same reason.

The book comes out- lots of fans dig it. It gets love from the critics. There's even some controversy sizzle - is Frobush Man an undocumented Immigrant? and the book goes forth.

Fan theories abound about the creation of the book and Jack's m,otications for writing it, especially from the fans of Frobush Man from BEFORE all this movie business. Some are pretty harsh. Some are racist. Some are straight-up crazy. Almost none are right. The movie blows up and there's a sequel coming but the comic, which isn't DIRECTLY tied to the movie, it's plot or characters, goes on as it had been planned.

This is just an hypothetical but it's kind of how it works. Things get planned last the top but the mechanics of how to implement the plans are not as precise as the audience might expect. Neither in the good ways or the bad. It's sort of like the Execs are the Pentagon, the Editors are the field commanders and the Creatives are the front-line soldiers.

Facts on the front are different than they are in the planning rooms but the plans go forward AS PLANNED until there's a chance to course correct.

Make sense?

It does make sense, but in Coates Case, it's very clear that he made a huge course change or was told to do so. Or he really didn't have any intention of writing BP past the first season. The amount of course correct for Coates seemed like it was less planned and nore hamfisted in. The random return of Okoye, the Dora's doing the Wakanda forever salute and back on Buddy terms with T'Challa when literally a few issue's prior they were giving him attitude about being told what to do. Klaw randomly back and given an arc.

But I mean what their big idea? Because as flex hectic has said several times. With the BP solo being the most successful super hero solo in history and Tchalla being the Sole Hero to boast as a 700 million dollar man, marvel should be moving BP to his own exclusive office like Spidey, Batman and X-Men. Capitalize on the movies success and the hunger people have for seeing Black men and women in powerful roles. But what's been seen has been half assed. Get This IP it's own office

[Redjack]

It does make sense, but in Coates Case, it's very clear that he made a huge course change or was told to do so. Or he really didn't have any intention of writing BP past the first season. The amount of course correct for Coates seemed like it was less planned and nore hamfisted in. The random return of Okoye, the Dora's doing the Wakanda forever salute and back on Buddy terms with T'Challa when literally a few issue's prior they were giving him attitude about being told what to do. Klaw randomly back and given an arc.

But I mean what their big idea? Because as flex hectic has said several times. With the BP solo being the most successful super hero solo in history and Tchalla being the Sole Hero to boast as a 700 million dollar man, marvel should be moving BP to his own exclusive office like Spidey, Batman and X-Men. Capitalize on the movies success and the hunger people have for seeing Black men and women in powerful roles. But what's been seen has been half assed. Get This IP it's own office

Sadly, movie sales don't have any effect on comic book sales.

[MindofShadow]

No one is sitting down saying "Let's break Wakanda because them damned Africans are too strong." .

Maybe not out loud......

[Ezyo1000]

i wish i could respond to this in a more explicit and fact-filled way but I'm not allowed to discuss any of the real inner workings. Contracts.

Let's just say that the plot details of the comic are less important than the existence and GENERAL popularity of the comic. No one is sitting down saying "Let's break Wakanda because them damned Africans are too strong." We should always assume everyone is trying their best to put out something great, without malice. They might fail (being human, of course they will be failing someone pretty much all of the time.).

I think there's room for Coates' version of the Panther. It's not my version but, like I said, if I'd got the book, some of you guys would be really mad at me too. Like REALLY mad (evil laugh).

I hear ya Redjack I really do. But a HUGE red flag is how Coates went about the interviews hyping the book. Every interview was "I don't Like this" and "I don't understand that" "if there so advanced why do they use a monarch" "I can't see a man not taking advantage of having all female body guards around him all the time" I'm paraphrasing a little but those were the things he actually said. As well as "Priest and Hudlin always showed him as awesome awesome awesome ( they didn't they showed him down and beaten too, but He was still shown as a dangerous individual) so I'm going to show a more human version"

He used there runs as excuses to not show case Tchalla as... Well competent at all even though Hudlins run endedn8 years prior to that and Priest even longer and Tchalla has had literally 8 years of deconstruction before Coates came along. If you told me nthat his version was an out of continuity, literally just became King after having virtually no experience in ruling a nation, i would believe it because that's how far off the mark Coates hit.

Maybe there wasn't "Malice" but it was painfully clear that he didn't care for the character. It took something like 4 interviews for him to say something he liked about T'Challa and even then it was weighed down by I don't like this. He proved this IP isn't in his wheelhouse and that afrofuturism isn't what he is very interested in doing.

As for your version. I see it this way. Priest, Hudlin, McDuffie, Liss. I don't love EVERYTHING they did with the character. There are things I wish they never did, however, they proved that Even when Tchalla was at low points, he was still a badass. Contrary to popular belief, a hero can still look badass even when they lose. They can lose in style. So while I'm sure that there would be things I wouldn't like about your version, I can bet the good would outweigh the bad. Hell in that Lexus BP comic you showed a better T'Challa in 12 pages then what was shown in like a year and a half