T'Challa: Black Panther Appreciation 2018

[KOSLOX]

(Logan was a billion times better than WW, I don't even know why WW is in the discussion lol. end ruined the whole theme of that movie)

I agree. Wonder Woman would have been so much better if in the end she discovered that Ares had nothing to do with it and that humanity possessed on it's own the capacity for good or incredible evil, and her role was to lead by example and through compassion not by punching an evil war god.

Total missed opportunity to do something really different with the character and genre.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

See, I don't see one line during a monologue as thought provoking. It never real dove into it, it was just an explanation why the X gene was gone.

An example of doing ti right would be say, Winter Soldier and how it dealt with, "trading freedom for protection" as that was a more core element to the movie.

Or... Black Panther. Which had various themes going at once, including one incredibly central to the plot, "should a rich prosperous nation help anyone." I thoguuht Cooglers ability to weave themes into the context of a superhero movie to be near perfection.

Logan, IMO, was just a very well done super hero movie.. in plot (except for the farmer pit stop), action, how it was shot, the asthetic, character work, ect. I thought BP had all those things as well... but also brought a little extra to the table.

(Logan was a billion times better than WW, I don't even know why WW is in the discussion lol. end ruined the whole theme of that movie)

All film is subjective, but yea I see a lot of WW fans who hate that BP is mentioned as the same quality, lol.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

Marvel's Black Panther easter egg. Text I circled in this picture on King T'Challa's new suit says "I Love You Mom" in Wakandan. #WakandaForever It was mentioned on reddit but I confirmed it by reading the language in a gallery book that came with a target limited edition blu-ray

https://twitter.com/EscaflowneClown/...41491540680705

[Username taken]

There are a lot of themes in BP that NO superhero movie has EVER touched upon. The X-men movies dabbled into these but not as deep or as layered as Black Panther.

In BP, there is stuff on-

1. Black on black violence (part of Killmonger's story is basically Coogler inserting himself and his personal experiences in Oakland into the movie; this is in addition to the battle at the end)
2. The loss/absence of fathers in the African-American community (this was very obvious)
3. What role the rich/richer nations should play in the world and how much of an issue immigration is to these countries (this was one of the greater debates that went through the entire movie not to mention there are a ton of "W'Kabi's" in the United States now)
4. How African tangibles and intangibles have been taken away by colonialism permanently (apart from the Wakandan spear, the other artifacts in the British museum are real and the originals are yet to be returned to Africa)
5. How Africa itself has kind of "lost its way" (highlighted in the conversation between Killmonger and his father, the very serious Boko Haram problem in Northern Nigeria which has hurt me personally as a man of Nigerian descent)
6. Killmonger is a "reverse Hamlet" (except that he was a full villain)
7. The depiction of an African state unencumbered by colonialism and slavery and what could have been
8. The very positive depiction of black people in a big budget movie wrapped up in Afro-futurism
9. Strong women (people talk about strong women but almost every black man particularly those from Africa understand just how much the African mother has to deal with and how much REAL strength they have)
e.t.c

Seriously, what Coogler did in BP to touch upon all these issues (obviously he couldn't go to much into them because it's a 2 hour superhero movie) was a minor miracle and after studying the movie carefully I'm firmly in the camp the movie deserves all the acclaim AND an Oscar nomination. The only down side to the movie was the dodgy CGI at the end (like seriously, it turned into a PS2 game at some points).

Heck, the movie deserves accolades for Killmonger's speech choosing death "like his ancestors that leaped off the boats instead of slavery".

[Agent Z]

(Logan was a billion times better than WW, I don't even know why WW is in the discussion lol. end ruined the whole theme of that movie)

I agree. Wonder Woman would have been so much better if in the end she discovered that Ares had nothing to do with it and that humanity possessed on it's own the capacity for good or incredible evil, and her role was to lead by example and through compassion not by punching an evil war god.

Total missed opportunity to do something really different with the character and genre.

That's exactly what happened. Ares didn't cause the war. He was just taking advantage of it for his own ends. The film even makes it clear that Ludendorff and his men are a rogue faction trying to keep the war going and the German high command want peace.

Remember the film takes place on November 11. The war is, to all intents and purposes, already over. The armistice negotiations are taking place. Ludendorff, Poison, and Ares are standing in the way of said negotiations and are attempting to undermine them, but the entirety of World War I has already played out offstage, and what we are watching is a last ditch effort by a fanatic German officer and his lunatic chemist, with a behind the scenes assist from the God of War, to restart the conflict before peace can be made.

[KOSLOX]

That's exactly what happened. Ares didn't cause the war. He was just taking advantage of it for his own ends.

He also admitted to subtly pushing them to that end. And then there was a cheesy fight sequence.

I'd have cut Ares out of the movie entirely, and had Wonder Woman be entirely wrong about Ares involvement at all.

[Agent Z]

He also admitted to subtly pushing them to that end. And then there was a cheesy fight sequence.

I'd have cut Ares out of the movie entirely, and had Wonder Woman be entirely wrong about Ares involvement at all.

All he did was give them weapons to do it. He didn't possess them and make them fight. They were doing that on their own.

Thing is Diana was wrong about Ares' involvement as he wasn't behind the war.

As for the fight sequence, I've seen worse.

[Overhazard]

The fact that she killed Ares kind of lessens the tensions in the sequel. WW doesn't have a big rogues gallery, how do you go from killing the god of war to fighting a cat lady?

[MindofShadow]

He also admitted to subtly pushing them to that end. And then there was a cheesy fight sequence.

I'd have cut Ares out of the movie entirely, and had Wonder Woman be entirely wrong about Ares involvement at all.

It didn't help the message that as soon as he was dead, everyone stopped fighting and then it went to a WWI victory parade.

Message got meddled at the end.

Ares was also a damn idiot. Why the hell would you tell her she was built to kill him lol? Why even show up there at all? Dude could have just ghosted and she would have had no idea what was going on.

That last act was a MESS.

[Agent Z]

The fact that she killed Ares kind of lessens the tensions in the sequel. WW doesn't have a big rogues gallery, how do you go from killing the god of war to fighting a cat lady?

She has the Titans of myth and Circe who's a goddess herself. Cheetah also isn't just a cat lady, she's an avatar for another god.

Even then, who says the next villain has to top the other in power levels?

It didn't help the message that as soon as he was dead, everyone stopped fighting and then it went to a WWI victory parade.

Message got meddled at the end.

Ares was also a damn idiot. Why the hell would you tell her she was built to kill him lol? Why even show up there at all? Dude could have just ghosted and she would have had no idea what was going on.

That last act was a MESS.

They stopped fighting because their boss (Ludendorf) was dead, they didn't really want to be their and again the war was for all intents and purposes over.

[Blind Wedjat]

There are a lot of themes in BP that NO superhero movie has EVER touched upon. The X-men movies dabbled into these but not as deep or as layered as Black Panther.

In BP, there is stuff on-

1. Black on black violence (part of Killmonger's story is basically Coogler inserting himself and his personal experiences in Oakland into the movie; this is in addition to the battle at the end)
2. The loss/absence of fathers in the African-American community (this was very obvious)
3. What role the rich/richer nations should play in the world and how much of an issue immigration is to these countries (this was one of the greater debates that went through the entire movie not to mention there are a ton of "W'Kabi's" in the United States now)
4. How African tangibles and intangibles have been taken away by colonialism permanently (apart from the Wakandan spear, the other artifacts in the British museum are real and the originals are yet to be returned to Africa)
5. How Africa itself has kind of "lost its way" (highlighted in the conversation between Killmonger and his father, the very serious Boko Haram problem in Northern Nigeria which has hurt me personally as a man of Nigerian descent)
6. Killmonger is a "reverse Hamlet" (except that he was a full villain)
7. The depiction of an African state unencumbered by colonialism and slavery and what could have been
8. The very positive depiction of black people in a big budget movie wrapped up in Afro-futurism
9. Strong women (people talk about strong women but almost every black man particularly those from Africa understand just how much the African mother has to deal with and how much REAL strength they have)
e.t.c

Seriously, what Coogler did in BP to touch upon all these issues (obviously he couldn't go to much into them because it's a 2 hour superhero movie) was a minor miracle and after studying the movie carefully I'm firmly in the camp the movie deserves all the acclaim AND an Oscar nomination. The only down side to the movie was the dodgy CGI at the end (like seriously, it turned into a PS2 game at some points).

Heck, the movie deserves accolades for Killmonger's speech choosing death "like his ancestors that leaped off the boats instead of slavery".

Recently I've come across to articles how Black Panther was in part inspired by Osirian myth. Really interesting stuff:

https://medium.com/@BmoreDoc/the-int...n-a0b01368007a

Black Panther would be exciting enough if it only included the first two levels. But there is a third level to the Black Panther interpretive framework. The story deftly embeds a remixing and retelling of the ancient Kemetan/Egyptian myth or cosmology known as the Osirian Drama. The character equations are as follows:

Ausar/Osiris = T’Challa
Auset/Isis = Nakia
Set/Anubis = Killmonger
Nepthys = Shuri
Nut = Queen Mother Ramonda
What drew my attention to this was the scene where the Queen Mother Ramonda, Nakia, and Shuri all invoke the Ancestors to essentially resurrect T’Challa. In the Ausarian/Osirian Drama, Set and Osiris are brothers. Set kills Osiris and dismembers him. Isis, who is the wife of Osiris “remembers” him and performs a ritual to raise him from the dead. T’Challa goes into a type of death or deep sleep when he is found in the snow and in a coma. Essentially then, he is resurrected with the aid of the Ancestors and the Vibranium herb that was kept by his wife-to-be Nakia.

Unlike more Western modalities of spiritual thought such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, ancient Kemetan spiritual thought was neither rigid nor Manicheistic is its portrayals of its gods and goddesses. Although Set is a murderer in the Osirian Drama, the ancient Kemetans embued their myths with multiple layers of meaning. The Osirian Drama encoded everything from the science of astrology to the myths associated with “ages” of their Great Year to the ideas about the spiritual nature of human beings. The myths grew and changed over time, neither remaining static or dogmatic in interpretation. A god or goddess could be venerated in one age and deemphasized in another age. For instance, the god Set would have been venerated in the Age of Gemini (i.e. Set/Horus) and become the villian in the Age of Taurus (i.e. Ptah-Apis/Osiris).

In this way, the ancient Kemetans deployed an array of multilevel thought that resisted simplistic interpretations and defies unidimensional renderings of their myths. It guards against the modern prediliction to label someone as “problematic” and therefore disposable. All mythic characters are vital and embued with meanings that can be viewed one way during one age, but another way in another age.

A clear visual marker that points toward the Osirian Drama is the way T’Challa crossed his arms on multiple occasions throughout the film. He does so in a particularly Osirian manner and I believe this was a very conscious decision.

https://blog.apaonline.org/2018/02/2...black-panther/

The additional myth is the story of Isis, Osiris/Horus and Set(h) in KMT (Ancient African name of what is now known as Egypt). This is also known as the “warring twins.” They repeat in many forms throughout mythic literature. The sacred king (Osiris) is killed. The ritual moves from earth to water (in this case snow—notice, the Jabari clan found him by the riverbank) and the king is reborn through having been submerged in snow/water. This is a crucial mythic element. T’Challa is in fact three manifestations of the Black Panther. His first is when he attempted to apprehend the killer of his father. The second is when he was reborn after his coronation through ritual battle. Both instances of resurrection are after submergence in red soil. The third, however, is different. He is reborn from water. He is really a new Black Panther. Earth is, in most myths, feminine, but the feminine has at least two manifestations—earth and water. The soil of the initial ritual is red, and another term for red clay in ancient languages such as Hebrew is adamah, which means “ground” or “red clay” from which came the word “adam,” which means “human.” The mother, from whose womb he initially came, is crucial here, since T’Challa mother Romanda is, in ancient mythic form, Isis. T’Challa’s father through to the first Black Panther is Osiris and T’Challa is both the manifestation of Osiris and Horus since Osiris is also the Black Panther because the process through which he is “born” as king is actually resurrection. Osiris is, among other roles, a god of resurrection. The mother has her husband(s) and her son in one, since the sacred king was historically planted in the soil and the one who stands above the ground and belongs to her emerges from water. Think of the breaking of the amniotic fluid. There are more details of this myth, but the crucial thing is the elimination of Set(h)’s temporary rule of KMT/Egypt/Wakanda.

This movie has a ton of stuff to unpack from it. Someone once told me how he felt the theme of the movie was improving the next generation through education and giving them the tools and resource to achieve these dreams. It's why Shuri in the film is smarter than T'Challa when it comes to technology and what the last scene of the film is about. The kid's dreams can be achieved because T'Challa and Wakanda have come to them, with resources and hopes of a better life. That's why All the Stars plays after that (the song's chorus is about how reaching for the stars is easier because they're now closer to you).

How many movies have that kind of message?

[Blind Wedjat]

It didn't help the message that as soon as he was dead, everyone stopped fighting and then it went to a WWI victory parade.

Message got meddled at the end.

Ares was also a damn idiot. Why the hell would you tell her she was built to kill him lol? Why even show up there at all? Dude could have just ghosted and she would have had no idea what was going on.

That last act was a MESS.

As a character he didn't make any sense at all. He's a god of war and yet want he really wants at the end is a peaceful paradise? Talk about walking contradiction. If anything, he was like Zeus.

BP's final fight may have not delivered and the CGI certainly wasn't great but at least the message of the film wasn't ruined during the third act. Hell, that act has one of the films most memorable moments and lines.

[MindofShadow]

They stopped fighting because their boss (Ludendorf) was dead, they didn't really want to be their and again the war was for all intents and purposes over.

It didn't come across as that though. That was what I mean by the message being muddled (lol sp?). Editing was a mess

[MindofShadow]

As a character he didn't make any sense at all. He's a god of war and yet want he really wants at the end is a peaceful paradise? Talk about walking contradiction. If anything, he was like Zeus.

BP's final fight may have not delivered and the CGI certainly wasn't great but at least the message of the film wasn't ruined during the third act. Hell, that act has one of the films most memorable moments and lines.

did you catch it on blu ray yet?

Did you think the CGI was improved or are me and KlauesMixtape insane?

[Agent Z]

As a character he didn't make any sense at all. He's a god of war and yet want he really wants at the end is a peaceful paradise? Talk about walking contradiction. If anything, he was like Zeus.

BP's final fight may have not delivered and the CGI certainly wasn't great but at least the message of the film wasn't ruined during the third act. Hell, that act has one of the films most memorable moments and lines.

Not that much of a contradiction. There are plenty of war gods who don't necessarily like war. It's a title not a personality.

It didn't come across as that though. That was what I mean by the message being muddled (lol sp?). Editing was a mess

Seemed pretty clear to me. Especially if you again remember the negotiations taking place.