Victor Von Doom: Doctor Doom appreciation 2018

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks Abe. I'll e to be picking that up this afternoon. In the meantime, I forgot all about "Caliph Doom" making his debut in Exiles #9 a couple of weeks ago. It was just one of Doom's many last page entrances. One day I have to make a list of all of those.

I must say the billowing pantaloons look is not a good one for Doom

I really like the original run of the Exiles back in the days when Geoff Johns was writing and Mike McKone was the artist. Writer Saladin Ahmed is using an Arabian Knights theme here and it looks like next issue might be fun. TJ is trapped in the palace of the Caliph. /she is playing the role of Scheherazade and must reading stories to him.

[Kintor]

Marvel Two in One this week is full of things designed for us...

Really? I dropped 2-in-1 because I thought the remaining two issues looked like filler and had no hint of Doom showing up. But from what you're saying I guess I'll have a look anyway.

[Abe]

really? I dropped 2-in-1 because i thought the remaining two issues looked like filler and had no hint of doom showing up. But from what you're saying i guess i'll have a look anyway.

Please don't expect too much!

But I liked it... I'll say a bit more but with spoilers tags - not that much spoilers in there btw, but I guess I suggest things.

spoilers:

If you have seen the preview you know already that's it's an issue showing Reed and Ben talking a lot, and they talk about Victor a lot in the second half of it. Our Doom can't be seen but it's about him as a follow up to the Annual.

end of spoilers

[Kintor]

Please don't expect too much!

But I liked it... I'll say a bit more but with spoilers tags - not that much spoilers in there btw, but I guess I suggest things.

spoilers:

If you have seen the preview you know already that's it's an issue showing Reed and Ben talking a lot, and they talk about Victor a lot in the second half of it. Our Doom can't be seen but it's about him as a follow up to the Annual.

end of spoilers

I've read the issue now and I see what you mean. Technically Doom is absent from the story but his presence looms large.

spoilers:

That's the trouble with having a multiverse, so hard to keep track of everybody. The Marvel canon is big enough already with clones and mantles, alternate reality versions of characters just make the mess worse. But I digress... The story was still good. Some nice closure for Ben and a new look at Reed's relationship with Doom. Even if no major story arcs were advanced to any degree. Plus, the multisect was apparently destroyed in a random issue of Spider-Man? That's lame, not going to bother with that one unless I hear of some major Doom connections in that story.

end of spoilers

[SuperiorIronman]

So I got around to reading the True Believers What If? Doctor Doom became a hero.

To be honest, I liked it.
It basically recaps Doom's backstory but it also basically gives us everything we need to know. The biggest difference between this Victor and mainstream Victor is that he actually considers Reed when he discovers Victor's calculations. And intriguingly enough he, with Reed's help, doesn't gain his damaged face in the process of going into the netherworld. Victor leaves and then shortly thereafter figures out how to save his mother and while I still have yet to do a full reading of Triumph and Torment, I'm pretty sure it goes easier for this Victor. Subsequently biggest dick in the galaxy Mephisto shows up and screws over Victor big time. But unlike OMD, there is a power disparity here. Victor is powerful but Mephisto is just screwing with him and with a thwack to the face easily brings Victor down and offers an ultimatum. The people of Latveria that Mephisto is holding hostage, or Doom's wife. Doom knows he can't just beat Mephisto and in only a couple of weeks Victor manages to improve the lives of everyone in the entire country. So essentially if Doom goes in Valeria's place the world will be deprived of a mostly unstopable good. Ultimately Valeria goes and Victor is forced to face Mephisto for her once a year but is so far unsuccessful.

This comic is great. It tells the reader everything it needs to know and thankfully keeps it brief. I'm not terribly sold on the costume choice, but it's more a problem that he retained the tunic as otherwise I can liver with the helmet. It also goes to show that Victor even is still the golden Avenger after losing his wife (I wonder how this univere's Iron man took to that) is still doing good. It seems like had Victor been a better person, people might be more accepting of him, showing that mainstream Doom isn't a total villain and with the right push could be a "golden Avenger" himself and in later years absolutely has.

I also didn't mind the "rightful ruler" bit as I feel it could also be interpreted as Doom simply being better than the current ruler and he knows it. Doom also mention his mother told him the same thing but I feel it could be argued that Victor being a benevolent King is something of a destiny his mother might want for him and convinces him to do so. Victor didn't need to be of royal blood before so I just don't see it here now.

All and all it's a good read and for as cheap as it was, I'd recommend it to anybody who hasn't picked it up already. I also managed to get a reprint of Doom's first appearance so I'd be curious to see how that holds up compared to now and even the What if? reprint.

[SuperiorIronman]

Alright so I came around to reading Fantastic Four #5 and dear lord was Doctor Doom an uphill battle.

It's not to say that his first outing was bad, it's just that it wasn't all that great because at the end of the day, he just didn't do much. A lot of it is Doom just getting the FF to do his dirty work and I have utterly no idea why he just didn't do it himself. Even at the time he had a Doombot so why he didn't just send that is beyond me especially if he didn't know that the Thing was Blackbeard. What's more is that we don't really see much of the cool things we see later with Doctor Doom. Sure we get to see his inventiveness in that he has his own time machine, flight pack, and net that's electrified and can cover a whole building (because of course it does), but that's almost standard fare for supervillains at the time. Just something about Doom just makes his planning feel more run of the mill if anything.

Also he rides in a helicopter jet (helicopters don't work that way) that he of all things painted a shark face onto.

Attachment 73263

Attachment 73264

Separated at birth? You make the call!

I also don't think his costume works nearly as well as it did later. It's more outfit than armor and that's fine for theatrics or a bombastic villain, but nothing about his first outing makes sense for it. It suggests a medieval kind of evil and along with his castle makes me think he's going to cast spells, except he's making gadgets and sending the heroes through time.

As a first outing, it's rough.
Their is enough that makes me understand why people wanted to see more of Victor, but there is enough here that makes me understand why they went the way they did with him. I especially liked that all the story point we know and love for Victor like his disfigurement, obsession with Reed, his magical and technological knowledge do come from here, but it needed more. In hindsight I'd say drop the time travel story because Victor's interesting enough and seeing Ben screw around in a pirate outfit just isn't as threatening especially seeing as Reed could've just as easily left him there. Victor is basically a run of the mill villain for the time here but there is hints at something more, I just wish we focused more on that.

Attachment 73268

Finally, Victor's playset...,
Assuming this is actually a part of the story itself, Victor just has dolls of the FF he plays with along with his pet Vulture. I don't think we ever see it again but I'm going to assume Victor named it Snubbles. Snubbles the Vulture.
Also, books on the occult simply called "Demons" and "science and sorcery". I wonder if his kitchen has books called "cooking" or "stove".

[Iron Maiden]

Enjoyed reading your assessment, SuperiorIronMan. Frequently younger generations of readers really don't like the early era of Marvel comics and I can understand why. They are looking into the past through the prism of a much more sophisticated reader. I was too young for comics at that point but later I did go back and read the back issues. Marvel did a smart move back them by creating titles that went back into the recent past of the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man by reprinting the early issues in Marvel's Collectors's Items Classics for the FF and Marvel Tales for Spider-Man. I enjoyed reading those issues when I was younger and I still do have a fondness for them, I suppose for the nostalgia. And I was much younger when I read them.

IMO Stan and Jack step up their characterization in their next issue where Doctor Doom and the Sub-Mariner team up which gives us another of Doom's skills. He uses guile and not so subtle persuasion to convince Namor to enter an alliance with him. We see this later when he put she Silver Surfer off his guard in order to steal his powers. We see where Kirby has also updated Doom's look by adding the cloak...maybe to make an impression on Namor? There are a few more developments to come but IMO he still lacks the grandiosity of later issues, like FF#39-40. By that time we had found out that Doom is the ruler of his own country.

I've been a bit M.I.A. lately so I have some catching up to do!

[Iron Maiden]

So I got around to reading the True Believers What If? Doctor Doom became a hero.

To be honest, I liked it.
It basically recaps Doom's backstory but it also basically gives us everything we need to know. The biggest difference between this Victor and mainstream Victor is that he actually considers Reed when he discovers Victor's calculations. And intriguingly enough he, with Reed's help, doesn't gain his damaged face in the process of going into the netherworld. Victor leaves and then shortly thereafter figures out how to save his mother and while I still have yet to do a full reading of Triumph and Torment, I'm pretty sure it goes easier for this Victor. Subsequently biggest dick in the galaxy Mephisto shows up and screws over Victor big time. But unlike OMD, there is a power disparity here. Victor is powerful but Mephisto is just screwing with him and with a thwack to the face easily brings Victor down and offers an ultimatum. The people of Latveria that Mephisto is holding hostage, or Doom's wife. Doom knows he can't just beat Mephisto and in only a couple of weeks Victor manages to improve the lives of everyone in the entire country. So essentially if Doom goes in Valeria's place the world will be deprived of a mostly unstopable good. Ultimately Valeria goes and Victor is forced to face Mephisto for her once a year but is so far unsuccessful.

This comic is great. It tells the reader everything it needs to know and thankfully keeps it brief. I'm not terribly sold on the costume choice, but it's more a problem that he retained the tunic as otherwise I can liver with the helmet. It also goes to show that Victor even is still the golden Avenger after losing his wife (I wonder how this univere's Iron man took to that) is still doing good. It seems like had Victor been a better person, people might be more accepting of him, showing that mainstream Doom isn't a total villain and with the right push could be a "golden Avenger" himself and in later years absolutely has.

I also didn't mind the "rightful ruler" bit as I feel it could also be interpreted as Doom simply being better than the current ruler and he knows it. Doom also mention his mother told him the same thing but I feel it could be argued that Victor being a benevolent King is something of a destiny his mother might want for him and convinces him to do so. Victor didn't need to be of royal blood before so I just don't see it here now.

All and all it's a good read and for as cheap as it was, I'd recommend it to anybody who hasn't picked it up already. I also managed to get a reprint of Doom's first appearance so I'd be curious to see how that holds up compared to now and even the What if? reprint.

It's too bad that Marvel never revisited this universe as they sometimes do where Victor remained a champion of the people. It wasn't until some years later that the guys who wrote the Marvel Handbooks came up with the idea that every What If story represents a different Marvel Earth. This one was designated Earth 808. Would that Earth's Victor eventually convince Stephen Strange to assist in his quest? One would have to think that he would need less convincing and Victor wouldn't need participate in the Trial of the Vishanti. Could it also be that the ruthlessness of Earth Prime Victor at that stage would give him an edge?


I'm also not crazy about the costume choice, particularly the gold color. Looking back, his helmet reminds me of the one Maximus chooses for himself in "Gladiator" But all in all, I think Fred Kida was one of the better artists to work on that era of What If. They always had different artists for each issue.

[SuperiorIronman]

It's too bad that Marvel never revisited this universe as they sometimes do where Victor remained a champion of the people. It wasn't until some years later that the guys who wrote the Marvel Handbooks came up with the idea that every What If story represents a different Marvel Earth. This one was designated Earth 808. Would that Earth's Victor eventually convince Stephen Strange to assist in his quest? One would have to think that he would need less convincing and Victor wouldn't need participate in the Trial of the Vishanti. Could it also be that the ruthlessness of Earth Prime Victor at that stage would give him an edge?


I'm also not crazy about the costume choice, particularly the gold color. Looking back, his helmet reminds me of the one Maximus chooses for himself in "Gladiator" But all in all, I think Fred Kida was one of the better artists to work on that era of What If. They always had different artists for each issue.

I stumbled onto the What if? issue on Marvel Database years ago and only now I found it. I'd wager I was missing out and it was totally worth tracking down. I would like to see this Doom's continued adventures as well and the setup is clear cut. If Marvel writers can't use Victor because of Dan Slott, this would be a way to bring Infamous Iron man back without worry about what's happening in the current FF books.

[Iron Maiden]

I stumbled onto the What if? issue on Marvel Database years ago and only now I found it. I'd wager I was missing out and it was totally worth tracking down. I would like to see this Doom's continued adventures as well and the setup is clear cut. If Marvel writers can't use Victor because of Dan Slott, this would be a way to bring Infamous Iron man back without worry about what's happening in the current FF books.

I really hope Infamous Iron Man doesn't end up in the gone but not forgotten thread we have here on the forum. I feel like there could have been a lot of story potential if he became part of a European based Avengers team, if there still doing that kind of thing. It's kind of annoying that the Fantastic Four has had this awkward relaunch that has delayed the shipping schedule. We should have been getting issue 3 last month. We may get a better idea of where Slott is going by December / January I suppose.

There were a few examples of a What If version of Earth was revisited. The most prominent example was the Spider-Girl universe which became an ongoing series that reached 100 issues. There was a follow up with the Fantastic Five also.

One of my favorite Doom What If issues was the one where he kept the power of the Beyonders and then took on all of Earth's heroes. He has a final standoff with the Celestials and ends up beating them (after a 500 year battle) and restoring Earth with the powers he had left. This is what I imagine Victor's role could be in the Grand Scheme of Things. He is the last best Defender of the Multiverse from all of these rogue Cosmic entities and becomes an elder of the Universe. John Byrne once proposed a similar story where Doom becomes the next Galactus to learn the lesson that "with Great Power comes Great Responsibility"

[Iron Maiden]

Please don't expect too much!

But I liked it... I'll say a bit more but with spoilers tags - not that much spoilers in there btw, but I guess I suggest things.

spoilers:

If you have seen the preview you know already that's it's an issue showing Reed and Ben talking a lot, and they talk about Victor a lot in the second half of it. Our Doom can't be seen but it's about him as a follow up to the Annual.

end of spoilers

I thought that part were Ben and Reed are discussing the two Dooms, the one in Universe P1837 and the one they're familiar with at home was the highlight of the issue, especially Zdarsksy's page where he has Reed explain what he believes are the qualities of being a genius.

I've read the issue now and I see what you mean. Technically Doom is absent from the story but his presence looms large.

I wish we got to know more of this Doom's prior history. How did he get his scars?

spoilers:

That's the trouble with having a multiverse, so hard to keep track of everybody. The Marvel canon is big enough already with clones and mantles, alternate reality versions of characters just make the mess worse. But I digress... The story was still good. Some nice closure for Ben and a new look at Reed's relationship with Doom. Even if no major story arcs were advanced to any degree. Plus, the multisect was apparently destroyed in a random issue of Spider-Man? That's lame, not going to bother with that one unless I hear of some major Doom connections in that story.

end of spoilers

I glanced through that issue and I didn't even see the Multisect mentioned. I guess I'll have to take a closer look. I want to go through some of Zdarsky's Spectacular Spider-Man because it did include a Doom from another timeline.

After reading Zdarsky's MTIO it almost makes me wish that his series were allowed to continue while they held off relaunching the Fantastic Four. Then we could have a new ad hoc Fantastic Four with Ben, Johnny, Victor and maybe Rachna. With this confusion on just who is the artist, it makes me wonder if they were really ready to go with an ongoing Fantastic Four. There's still no explanation why they had to use 3 different artists n the first 5 announced issues.

[SuperiorIronman]

My honest to goodness tin-foil hat explanation? Timing.

MTIO happened and was presumed to be going past Infamous, but then somebody pushed for an FF relaunch and now things had to scramble early for a conclusion in MTIO so Dan Slott could have a clean slate. With the Fox deal going through, somebody probably got trigger happy and launched the book without giving enough time to conclude books, hence why Victor and Rachna pretty much disappear after Editorial probably had the team shift gear.

So a scrambled launch likely occurred and because it was launching in August and MTIO has a full volume lead, there was bound to be conflict with what is now a sister book. Marvel probably only had artists for so long and because everybody had to figure out just what MTIO was doing and give Dan Slott the time he needed to write the book, things hit the fan. There likely wasn't enough time for Slott or Pichelli. A fantastic way to kill momentum.

Somebody jumped the gun and likely screwed up the whole timeline.

[Iron Maiden]

My honest to goodness tin-foil hat explanation? Timing.

MTIO happened and was presumed to be going past Infamous, but then somebody pushed for an FF relaunch and now things had to scramble early for a conclusion in MTIO so Dan Slott could have a clean slate. With the Fox deal going through, somebody probably got trigger happy and launched the book without giving enough time to conclude books, hence why Victor and Rachna pretty much disappear after Editorial probably had the team shift gear.

So a scrambled launch likely occurred and because it was launching in August and MTIO has a full volume lead, there was bound to be conflict with what is now a sister book. Marvel probably only had artists for so long and because everybody had to figure out just what MTIO was doing and give Dan Slott the time he needed to write the book, things hit the fan. There likely wasn't enough time for Slott or Pichelli. A fantastic way to kill momentum.

Somebody jumped the gun and likely screwed up the whole timeline.

Wasn't it Marvel's big announcement at one of the the comic book conventions? Maybe San Diego? Then again we could always blame it on cranky old Ike Perlmutter. I sound like a broken record but I still think there is something up with the relationship between Marvel and the artist community. Jim Cheung left rather suddenly for DC and he's been at Marvel for quite a while. I expected him to last for at least all of the first arc of MTIO then *BAM* he's gone. Why was Sara Pichelli promoted as the artist for FF but the suddenly she's posting new work for DC on her Twitter when Bleeding Cool breaks the story that she will only be there until issue 3. Then the latest is she's not even doing the entire issue of that. Something is weird about all of this.

[DoomScribe]

Alright so I came around to reading Fantastic Four #5 and dear lord was Doctor Doom an uphill battle.

It's not to say that his first outing was bad, it's just that it wasn't all that great because at the end of the day, he just didn't do much. A lot of it is Doom just getting the FF to do his dirty work and I have utterly no idea why he just didn't do it himself. ....

I think most of the early Marvel super hero comics really don't fare so well when viewed through the lens of sixty years of comic book evolution. You have to consider the times that these books were published, the early sixties, and the censors, and the fact that funny books were primarily kids fare. They were written for kids, kids learning to read up to early teens. I don't think the writers at the time ever thought that these books would even survive sixty years, much less be scrutinized by more sophisticated and older readers. And, most of the characters were drawn and written with very little depth or back story. So much has been added since then, you are looking at embryonic forms at best.

I think Dr. Doom was initially cast as a typical comic book villain, who would be seen for one or maybe two issues, challenge the heroes to take a quest, then disappear after ignominious defeat. But Lee and Kirby let their characters evolve, revisiting familiar themes and adding to the character's layers. Doom had a good basic start in issue #5, something to build upon. Subsequent stories added more depth, more layers. This is how he became iconic.

[Celgress]

I ask, how can somebody not like Dr. Doom? He is one of the strongest, highly skilled and most cunning supervillains in all of comics. Doom is easily in the top five if not top three supervillains of all time; my list goes Lex Luthor, Joker & Dr. Doom.