Wally West: Flash Appreciation 2018

[BohemiaDrinker]

People say that, but . . . how many people, and where have they made it clear?

Enough people, at every single opportunity. There's Convergence, there's DCU Rebirth, and according to Dan Didio himself Flash War was the best selling Flash story in the last 20 years.

Every single time DC puts their head out of their asses and do something even a little bit respectful with the character, results have followed. Be it ten, 5 or 1 year ago.

[Ascended]

Maybe folks look at how guys like WALLY have been done and decide it's not worth it to support Sideways or Duke or Brimestone.
Maybe folks want a TRADE more than a floppy? Because those three along with the rest of the New Age guys are doing better as trades elsewhere.

And I totally get the people who look at the failed attempts and decide its not worth trying anymore. But you know what happens when we do that? DC looks at the numbers and says "Well sh*t, we did things right this time, we built strong characters with a good creative team and we marketed the product heavily....and it still didnt sell. I guess there isn't an audience out there after all! Better make another Batman book!"

Its a two way street. When DC gives us a bad book, its on us to not support it so DC knows they're doing it wrong. But when they do give us a good book? We gotta be there to prove its viable. Punishing DC by not buying Sideways today because Static Shock was horrible in 2011 doesn't help anyone. It's like raising kids; if you try to punish your five year old for something they did last week they're not going to understand why they're in trouble.

Trade waiting works with books that're sure to continue but for smaller, lesser known books like the New Age stuff or even the Black Lightning mini we got a while back? It helps to support the floppies. A lot of the time, DC has already decided to cancel a book before trade orders start coming in and by the time they know it's doing well outside the direct market, it's too late. We gotta remember that the floppies are made months in advance and the plans for them are made months before that. And in any case, trades are a growing factor in sales but they're still not at the point where good (or even great) trade sales make up for terrible floppy sales.

We gotta support the good stuff man, or we wont be given any good stuff to support at all. Supply-demand curves, yknow?

Maybe folks take issue with the talent. Going for the top folks might "force" stores to stock the books but not to get fans to buy it. See Riri Williams. A certain group HATED her under Bendis. They LOVE her under Eve Ewing.

Top end creators definitely have their detractors.....often simply because they are top end creators, it seems. But if a publisher doesn't put high grade talent on a book then people complain about getting the crap end of the talent pool. There's no satisfying people. I mean, if they put Johns, Snyder, or Bendis on Black Lightning, people will complain. If they put Percy or Lobdell on Black Lightning, people will complain.

And no matter how many new folks you toss out-it does not excuse what has been done.

It most certainly does not. The fact that one of the top guys at DC doesn't understand why the Nightwing/Wally/Cyborg generation matters is genuinely scary, and possibly the biggest indicator that he shouldn't have the position he does, despite the many positive things he's done for the company and industry over the years. It doesnt matter if he likes them personally; they're popular, viable properties that help form the bedrock of the company's IP's. Screwing them over for a personal bias is such terrible business I fail to understand how he still has a job.

[Frontier]

People like to whine about Marvel 'pandering, diversity and SJW' but Marvel knows how to allow multiple generations of characters to co-exist and to give characters books.

If the Flash was part of Marvel, Wally and Barry would have their own individual books and a team up book.

But I would also say DC Family of characters jive better with each other then Marvel Family of characters.

Although, speaking on Marvel/Miles Morales, I thought Miles in the Spider-Man PS4 game was written a lot like Kid Flash Wally.

[Dred]

And I totally get the people who look at the failed attempts and decide its not worth trying anymore. But you know what happens when we do that? DC looks at the numbers and says "Well sh*t, we did things right this time, we built strong characters with a good creative team and we marketed the product heavily....and it still didnt sell. I guess there isn't an audience out there after all! Better make another Batman book!"

Its a two way street. When DC gives us a bad book, its on us to not support it so DC knows they're doing it wrong. But when they do give us a good book? We gotta be there to prove its viable. Punishing DC by not buying Sideways today because Static Shock was horrible in 2011 doesn't help anyone. It's like raising kids; if you try to punish your five year old for something they did last week they're not going to understand why they're in trouble.

Trade waiting works with books that're sure to continue but for smaller, lesser known books like the New Age stuff or even the Black Lightning mini we got a while back? It helps to support the floppies. A lot of the time, DC has already decided to cancel a book before trade orders start coming in and by the time they know it's doing well outside the direct market, it's too late. We gotta remember that the floppies are made months in advance and the plans for them are made months before that. And in any case, trades are a growing factor in sales but they're still not at the point where good (or even great) trade sales make up for terrible floppy sales.

We gotta support the good stuff man, or we wont be given any good stuff to support at all. Supply-demand curves, yknow?



Top end creators definitely have their detractors.....often simply because they are top end creators, it seems. But if a publisher doesn't put high grade talent on a book then people complain about getting the crap end of the talent pool. There's no satisfying people. I mean, if they put Johns, Snyder, or Bendis on Black Lightning, people will complain. If they put Percy or Lobdell on Black Lightning, people will complain.



It most certainly does not. The fact that one of the top guys at DC doesn't understand why the Nightwing/Wally/Cyborg generation matters is genuinely scary, and possibly the biggest indicator that he shouldn't have the position he does, despite the many positive things he's done for the company and industry over the years. It doesnt matter if he likes them personally; they're popular, viable properties that help form the bedrock of the company's IP's. Screwing them over for a personal bias is such terrible business I fail to understand how he still has a job.

That your analysis of DC's behavior is to liken them to a 5 year old is exactly what the problem is. Not the consumer. If a restaurant gives me a terrible piece of chicken that gets me sick no one blames me for refusing to give them more business despite their steak being good.

[king81992]

But I would also say DC Family of characters jive better with each other then Marvel Family of characters.

Although, speaking on Marvel/Miles Morales, I thought Miles in the Spider-Man PS4 game was written a lot like Kid Flash Wally.

Given time(assuming Marvel doesn't follow in current DC footsteps in the future),I believe the Marvel Family of characters will eventually jive with each other better.The DC Family of characters had been established for decades while Marvel didn't start focusing on legacy characters and sidekicks until the past 10-15 years.

[Vampire Savior]

I still believe the market would sustain 2 Flash titles.
Looking at the Convergence numbers for Barry & Wally - there was little between them.
If we can have 3 GL titles, a gazillion Bat titles, for Christ's sake Harley Quinn has 2 titles (not including Suicide Squad)

I'm pretty sure readers have made it clear they want to read a Wally West book, what I cannot wrap my head around is WHY DC are so reluctant to do so?
Does one persons bias override the company desire to make money??

If they don't want to throw their eggs in one basket, make it a Flash Family book and highlight ALL the speedsters in the DCU - past, present and future.
Are you telling me there isn't a writer out there who can come up with an interesting story once a month using all those characters???
John Fox, Jay Garrick, Jesse and Johnny Quick, XS, Impulse, Kid Flash, Godspeed, Max Mercury and that doesn't take into account the numerous speedsters Waid introduced in Chain Lightning!

I am sure DiDio has a bias against Wally West, but I also think Wally West's hardcore fans are looking at the situation too much as fans, while ignoring or not wanting to accept other factors, even though I'm pretty sure they are aware that they are there... Wally West is problematic because...

a) Fans likely won't accept him going back to his original identity of Kid Flash.
b) Fans are going to want him to be The Flash, and he just cannot be that, because...
c) There can only be one "Fastest Man Alive." Not two, not four, but only one, and DC has made it clear that person is going to be Barry Allen.

The Flash is not a corps. The Flash is one man who is, again, the undisputed Fastest Man Alive. The concept does not support multiple versions using the same name the way the Green Lantern Corps concept supports multiple heroes.

I am saying this as a person who prefers Wally West, but looking at this as a creative person, if you were to present the idea to me of two Flashes running around at the same time, I would tell you that is weird. stupid, and unnecessary. Or there would have to be an extremely clever narrative reason for that to be going on, and I can only imagine it being clever if done temporarily, or very sparingly. Some hyper fans might be able to think of some reason why that would happen, but to make the concept as easily digestible as it can be, the best thing to do is to NOT have that happen indefinitely.

"The Flash is a guy in a red suit who is the Fastest Man Alive. His name is Barry Allen."

That is pretty easy to understand, accept, and explain, and I think DC (DiDio) likes it that way. Remember, these characters aren't just comic book characters anymore, only being presented to super fans who obsess over decades of continuity. DC also has to keep these characters and concepts accessible to average joes. Wally West as Flash introduces a lot of complications that require explaining and thus make the concept harder to digest for people who don't know all the minutia. The same goes for the 9000 different versions of Robin. The Green Lanterns suffer from this, too, but it's easier to accept there because the concept of the Green Lantern Corps and the Power Ring (the hero is given a device that many others use rather than having some specific innate ability or acquiring powers through a one in a million freak accident) better allows for it.

That said, I think DC has made some really boneheaded moves with Wally West over the years, but I understand the dilemma he presents for them. Even if he does sell comics, when you look at things in the long run as I mentioned before, The Flash is more than a comic, and I can see how some may feel it's in the character's/franchise's best interest not to make it overly muddled with confusing things. The main reasons I see people have difficulty getting into comics is that they're hard to find, they're expensive, and... they're confusing.

[Jekyll]

I am sure DiDio has a bias against Wally West, but I also think Wally West's hardcore fans are looking at the situation too much as fans, while ignoring or not wanting to accept other factors, even though I'm pretty sure they are aware that they are there... Wally West is problematic because...

a) Fans likely won't accept him going back to his original identity of Kid Flash.
b) Fans are going to want him to be The Flash, and he just cannot be that, because...
c) There can only be one "Fastest Man Alive." Not two, not four, but only one, and DC has made it clear that person is going to be Barry Allen.

The Flash is not a corps. The Flash is one man who is, again, the undisputed Fastest Man Alive. The concept does not support multiple versions using the same name the way the Green Lantern Corps concept supports multiple heroes.

I am saying this as a person who prefers Wally West, but looking at this as a creative person, if you were to present the idea to me of two Flashes running around at the same time, I would tell you that is weird. stupid, and unnecessary. Or there would have to be an extremely clever narrative reason for that to be going on, and I can only imagine it being clever if done temporarily, or very sparingly. Some hyper fans might be able to think of some reason why that would happen, but to make the concept as easily digestible as it can be, the best thing to do is to NOT have that happen indefinitely.

"The Flash is a guy in a red suit who is the Fastest Man Alive. His name is Barry Allen."

That is pretty easy to understand, accept, and explain, and I think DC (DiDio) likes it that way. Remember, these characters aren't just comic book characters anymore, only being presented to super fans who obsess over decades of continuity. DC also has to keep these characters and concepts accessible to average joes. Wally West as Flash introduces a lot of complications that require explaining and thus make the concept harder to digest for people who don't know all the minutia. The same goes for the 9000 different versions of Robin. The Green Lanterns suffer from this, too, but it's easier to accept there because the concept of the Green Lantern Corps and the Power Ring (the hero is given a device that many others use rather than having some specific innate ability or acquiring powers through a one in a million freak accident) better allows for it.

That said, I think DC has made some really boneheaded moves with Wally West over the years, but I understand the dilemma he presents for them. Even if he does sell comics, when you look at things in the long run as I mentioned before, The Flash is more than a comic, and I can see how some may feel it's in the character's/franchise's best interest not to make it overly muddled with confusing things. The main reasons I see people have difficulty getting into comics is that they're hard to find, they're expensive, and... they're confusing.

I strongly disagree. It can and has been done. Waid established the Flash family in his title and had up to six speedsters he was balancing at one point. It worked out pretty well. There doesn’t need to be a “undisputed” fastest man alive. The Flash to me is about family and it’s completely boneheaded that DC can not grasp that concept. The DC universe is large enough to support multiple speedsters.

[Ascended]

That your analysis of DC's behavior is to liken them to a 5 year old is exactly what the problem is. Not the consumer. If a restaurant gives me a terrible piece of chicken that gets me sick no one blames me for refusing to give them more business despite their steak being good.

Most of the time its all on DC, yeah. There's no good reason for the treatment Wally has gotten, for example, and none of that falls back on the fans.

But I was speaking specifically about lesser known IP's being ignored by the consumer even when the product is well crafted and of high quality. When the publisher puts in effort to provide a good title and we ignore it because it's not an A-lister or because DC has made mistakes in the past with similar IP's, that's when its on us.

If you hated Static Shock in 2011, you had every reason to because that was not only a terrible book, but insulting to the character and his fans. However, if you didn't read Sideways at all because Static was bad seven years ago, then that's not on DC, that's on you.

A lot of consumers either dont realize it or like to ignore it, but business is a two sided relationship.

[Lee]

The Flash to me is about family and it’s completely boneheaded that DC can not grasp that concept.

It's a hell of a stretch to say that family is what the series is about.

[Jekyll]

It's a hell of a stretch to say that family is what the series is about.

Perhaps I chose the incorrect words, while it’s not entirely about family, the family aspect is extremely important to the series.
Also, if you read again I did say, “to me” that is what it’s about....

[JackDaw]

Perhaps I chose the incorrect words, while it’s not entirely about family, the family aspect is extremely important to the series.
Also, if you read again I did say, “to me” that is what it’s about....

I finished reading for the first time the first four (digital) volumes of the Mark Waid run last week, having read Lee/ Kirby Fantastic Four and the Hickman Fantastic Four run a few months earlier.

I actually think the effect of family across the different generations (and how friends can become “family”) came across more strongly in the Waid Flash run than the two Fantastic Four runs. And yet everyone says the Fantastic Four run is all about family...

I agree with you wholeheartedly...family relationships is the centre of the Waid run. We both know all interpretations of story have a strong subjective element..but I would be puzzled/ baffled by anyone reading that particular run who concluded that “family” was not a major theme.

[Eto]

HiC #3 completely destroyed me.....
Man what is it with DC and their aversion to Wally.

[Doctor Bifrost]

HiC #3 completely destroyed me.....
Man what is it with DC and their aversion to Wally.

I do not expect Roy Harper and Ginger Wally West to be dead when the series is over.

Booster Gold is involved. That means time travel.

Also, we've already seen AI-driven holodeck simulations in the series. One or more of the deaths we've seen could be simulations.

[skyvolt2000]

That your analysis of DC's behavior is to liken them to a 5 year old is exactly what the problem is. Not the consumer. If a restaurant gives me a terrible piece of chicken that gets me sick no one blames me for refusing to give them more business despite their steak being good.

Funny in comics you would be attacked for NOT going back and not being a TRUE supporter. With some of these properties you are expected to buy them no matter what.

To them quality of a book does no matter.

If you hated Static Shock in 2011, you had every reason to because that was not only a terrible book, but insulting to the character and his fans. However, if you didn't read Sideways at all because Static was bad seven years ago, then that's not on DC, that's on you.

Who is who is the WRITER for Sideways. You can't blame folks for not touching that book with HIS name on it. A book he used to bash the Titans. So why would Wally fans (among others) support that book?

Or is Sideways had the same editor that Static had-would you buy it? The same editor on Cyborg where that writer LEFT and even ANOTHER Static writer could not make Cyborg sell nor Underworld's writer nor Cyborg's creator.

If I see what was done to Wally, Nightwing, Cassandra, Tim, Bart, Conner and even Static-why would I bother with Silencer? Naomi? Immortals? Duke?
The behavior shows neither my money nor support matters. Odd that all these breakout folks at DC (no matter the media) got buried in some form.

Enough people, at every single opportunity. There's Convergence, there's DCU Rebirth, and according to Dan Didio himself Flash War was the best selling Flash story in the last 20 years.

On Amazon every Waid Wally trade is rank 500 and higher in sales for DC trades. Beating every New Age hero trade, along with Justice League & X-Men (not named Deadpool, X-23 or Logan).

The public is speaking. DC chooses not to listen.

[Frontier]

Given time(assuming Marvel doesn't follow in current DC footsteps in the future),I believe the Marvel Family of characters will eventually jive with each other better.The DC Family of characters had been established for decades while Marvel didn't start focusing on legacy characters and sidekicks until the past 10-15 years.

Generally I don't think the Marvel comics focus as much on the family of characters as DC has done.

In point of fact I once saw someone state they like how the Spider-Man characters generally are standalone and don't associate with each other that much, compared to DC books which tend to organically develop "Family" units surrounding the flagship hero of that franchise.