Dragonball M: A DBZ RPG Sign-Up and Discussion Thread II

[Lord Falcon]

So again, the original argument from Ishtar, was that Asha'rah was the one who erased the choice of trillions, and believes she was justified. Yet draws that line with Time Manipulation.


It's not.


I mean, Rex drained a GoD, just by draining him. That what he got from it is just 'Diet Hakai' is still extremely problematic. The fact is, it's not at all secure, and Genesis being an 'exception' doesn't somehow magically invalidate that.


It sure was irrelevant to Ishtar's initial charge.

Ishtar called Asha'rah out, for censuring Jinzi for manipulating time and saying she wished it had been completely restricted, despite her doing the same thing with Hakai (taking what wasn't hers to take, and using it to destroy the choices of trillions). Why Asha'rah brought that specific point into the discussion is one of my bigger questions, but it was certainly more fuel for the fire, as it were.

Ishtar is certainly free to conclude that mortals can gain hakai, but her conclusion is based on shaky evidence. We do not know enough about Genesis to understand if she even is still mortal, and she is the only example.

If we see Rex outright annihilating stuff the way a God of Destruction can, he'll be a real problem. The stars aligning for one creature with a particular powerset to gain diet hakai isn't really worth being on the gods' radar right now.

At best, this is like concluding Alcatraz is insecure because one inmate broke out of it. And that's with concluding ambiguities in favor of the 'insecurity of hakai' argument.

If you (and Ishtar) think killing people makes choices for them or erases the choices they make, I'd like to see the logic leading up to that. If I control your mind, then I am taking away the ability for you to choose. If I travel back in time and manipulate events to achieve a different outcome, I am destroying the choices you already made and wearing away at your ability to choose each time I replay a particular moment in time to try to make people choose differently. If you decide to live and I kill you, I haven't made your choice for you. You made your choice, then simply failed to actualize it.

Yes, and her believing the Gods messed up with Time, when she messed up in the same way with Hakai, is supplementary to Ishtar's initial charge.

Ishtar's initial charge was hypocrisy. Security of hakai does nothing to prove Asha'rah violated her own worldview, since she intended to make hakai secure. The security of hakai is therefore irrelevant, not supplementary.

No, but wanting to ban time travel for ruining her 'striving', doesn't hold water, when she ruined her own 'striving' with Hakai.

Asha'rah ruined many things with her rebellion. Striving is not one of them. Nobody's choices were erased. Nobody started having their choices made for them.

Had them look this over before I posted, actually. Issues they had with my assessment were corrected before I posted this version of it. So what you're getting here, to the best of my knowledge, is verified.

I will however say that if I've still mistated their positions (Parsley, Ochazuke), I'm certainly more than open to correcting things again, and even changing my position. Just trying to clear up a misunderstanding.



Asha'rah kept using 'we', as in the collective Gods, 'But Sakin this', or 'We Gods' that. That it was being used also, to address points Ishtar hadn't made, herself, appeared to Ishtar to be Asha'rah's way of deflecting or otherwise shifting focus away from the points she made. As, Ishtar doesn't care for their actions at the moment, nor does she care for the reasons for mortal life, or why/how Gods find meaning in mortal striving.

If Ishtar doesn't care for Asha'rahs's perceptions on "the reasons for mortal life, or why/how Gods find meaning in mortal striving," then she will never be able to make her point of Asha'rah being a hypocrite. Hypocrisy is not about the merits of any particular values system. Hypocrisy is about a person violating their own values system. Asha'rah gave Ishtar the context she would need to make a proper judgment about hypocrisy - i.e. Asha'rah's own values system.

If Ishtar thinks Asha'rah messed up, is a lousy god, is a liar, or is failing to treat hakai the same way as time travel when she should, these are all things which can be discussed on their own merits. But none of them have anything to do with hypocrisy. To show Asha'rah is a hypocrite, Ishtar needs to show that Asha'rah is failing to follow her own values system, not that Asha'rahs' values system is flawed.

Seems like I've not understood the cause, yea. Which should at least be understandable, given how vauge Sakin's role in it has been until now. Though it doesn't seem Sakin really manipulated Zeno's faction. Outside of not delivering the Godagrams, Asha'rah kept giving him.

From Cleric's breakdown, he manipulated Indar'en (though ... not really ? Indar'en was already going 'hey you there, stop it', before Sakin said it was 'too late, she rogue now'), definitely manipulated Asha'rah ... kind of (see response to Cleric).



This is fair.



Nope.



Parsley says she's a hypocrite, and Ochazuke does the same. Thought I'd stated it clearly enough, but here lemme go again. Ishtar/Parsley are on the same page, hypocrisy wise:



Ochazuke acknowledges Ishtar's points need addressing, but his focus is on another hypocrisy he's picked up on within Asha'rah's views:



The base charge is that Asha'rah is censuring others, for what she's done herself (and ultimately feels justified in doing). Every other point made, argued against, or refuted stems from that.

So yes, they all call her a hypocrite.



Ochazuke brought that up to imply -- more like subtly point out -- that the difference between a God, and Mortals is little more than semantics if higher power can be granted to anyone.

Successfully stealing Hakai however, means that it's really no different than stealing Time or more simply, "a thing that can do incalculable damage in the wrong hands". Which is a thing Asha'rah is against having ever been a thing (in regards to Time, only). So yes, it does dovetail with Ishtar's initial claim of hypocrisy being that Asha'rah did what Jiniz wants to do, but takes issue with the latter and feels justified in the former.



Dragging in Ishtar's dead wife and making light of it, was is more of the, "for some reason".



I mean objectively everyone of the PC is dangerous, they're probably casual planet busters by now. "Dangerous" in this context is, "dangerous like Auroc".

Sorry if that's not clear.

(continued below)

Correction to my own earlier assertion: Parsley also says that Asha'rah is a hypocrite, due to what you quoted. My bad on missing that. I'll quote it again so it isn't lost: "The fact is you wield a power you have no right to possess, just as this alternate Jinzi Pantaloons also wields a power he has no right to possess. That you saw fit to declare that the gods of old should have placed tighter restrictions on time itself to prevent the latter, while acknowledging the former, makes you a hypocrite."

Parsley's statement is based on an underlying assumption that hypocrisy can be applied from failing to follow an external code, namely Asha'rah violating the laws of Heaven. This is seen in her talk about rights of possession. But hypocrisy is about violating one's own code, not the code of somebody else. In the first place, the reason why Asha'rah tried to make Hakai secure at the time of its conception and the reason Asha'rah wants time to be secure are very different reasons.

Hakai can cause a lot of destruction and is meant to be a clean up tool of the gods, so making it secure was good sense, but Asha'rah has no inherent philosophical objection to mortals ever using hakai. The fact that mortals can be promoted to godhood shows that they can be deemed trustworthy enough to be granted hakai, just as they might be deemed trustworthy enough to be elevated to Kami (the vetting process for all this is obviously flawed, hence people like Hammer). Asha'rah has no inherent problem with mortals eventually gaining hakai or beings other than Gods of Destruction trying to gain hakai, at least beyond her overall objection about the exponential power of martial might which was the cause of her rebellion.

Asha'rah's problems are with time manipulation, for the reasons stated above. If Asha'rah had groused about how they should have made hakai completely secure and out of reach of anybody (i.e. never created hakai in the first place), then Asha'rah would be a hypocrite since she herself stole hakai and regret it. But since Asha'rah groused about time manipulation, then Parsley would have to show that stealing time isn't against Asha'rah's own code to prove Asha'rah a hypocrite. Comparing it to Asha'rah stealing hakai doesn't work because Asha'rah's own values system treats the two powers differently.

So equating time travel and hakai as things which "can do incalculable damage in the wrong hands" has objective merit as a comparison, but holds little value in this argument because Asha'rah's views on why hakai should be secure and her opposition to the use of time travel are based on different reasons, and she only has direct philosophical objections to the latter.

[Lord Falcon]

Sounds good, sorry I didn't kick off the training...seeing as you were on vacation and christmas was coming I saved it for later.

Though now I can only imagine she'll be teaching you with a limp.

Start whenever you're ready!

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Ishtar is certainly free to conclude that mortals can gain hakai, but her conclusion is based on shaky evidence. We do not know enough about Genesis to understand if she even is still mortal, and she is the only example.

Ishtar's another example. See below.

Ignoring that, Ishtar's also 'spoken' with Genesis, and knows at the least what she's after, that she's not needlessly hostile, and is very young. Also that she was, prior to getting the drop on Zurvan, Sihn, Stine, and Hammer; the strongest thing Ishtar had ever come across.

If we see Rex outright annihilating stuff the way a God of Destruction can, he'll be a real problem. The stars aligning for one creature with a particular powerset to gain diet hakai isn't really worth being on the gods' radar right now.

The fact that he can power drain a God and consume him, is already a serious problem. The fact that he could gain any kind of anything from it, is even more of one. As a mortal to boot, it sort of reinforces the idea that Asha'rah's notion of security really isn't one.

At best, this is like concluding Alcatraz is insecure because one inmate broke out of it. And that's with concluding ambiguities in favor of the 'insecurity of hakai' argument.

See the issue here is that Asha'rah either, 1) didn't design it as well as she wants everyone to believe, 2) intentionally designed it poorly.

So it's more like concluding Alcatraz is insecure because it was designed with a glaring flaw that has been exploited more than once. That Ishtar is sort of a poster child for the flaw (she was infused with Hakai under Asha'rah's nose ... the creator of Hakai), let alone Rex, Genesis; and the fact Sakin and his underlings are searching for Hakai so they can strip it from the holder, is hardly ambiguous. It's simply not secure.

If you (and Ishtar) think killing people makes choices for them or erases the choices they make, I'd like to see the logic leading up to that. If I control your mind, then I am taking away the ability for you to choose. If I travel back in time and manipulate events to achieve a different outcome, I am destroying the choices you already made and wearing away at your ability to choose each time I replay a particular moment in time to try to make people choose differently. If you decide to live and I kill you, I haven't made your choice for you. You made your choice, then simply failed to actualize it.

If you replace someone's parachute with an anvil, and they unknowingly jump out of a plane, was it their choice to jump to their cartoonish death ? Predetermined outcomes defeats the notion of striving, and is in essence what rewriting time accomplishes. Something Asha'rah is out and out against. So when Asha'rah waged a war that dismantled heaven, and then made it impossible to fix what she ruined by showing everyone that the main Arbiter of order and balance, can be power-jacked; she determined how the universe would play out for everyone, across all timelines.

The only real difference between what she did, and what Jinzi wishes to do is that she skipped several steps. She didn't repeat, and repeat, and repeat, until she got the outcome she wanted. She simply made it so that there was no choice for anyone. Similarly. Asha'rah knew what Indar'en was going to do, before he did it. So she created a scenario to take advantage of that fact. And despite the attempt to, you can't say she hoped he'd choose differently, considering she straight up told Ishtar she knew he was going to try stopping her at the end of the day.

It also seems like you're intentionally trying to skew this here, by saying 'he failed to actualize it', when Asha'rah took advantage of knowing what he'd choose, and then designed a scenario where she was guaranteed to kill him, because of that choice. It was a predetermined outcome.

Ishtar's initial charge was hypocrisy. Security of hakai does nothing to prove Asha'rah violated her own worldview, since she intended to make hakai secure. The security of hakai is therefore irrelevant, not supplementary.

Ishtar's call of hypocrisy is ... again:

For using Hakai the same way Jinzi plans to use time; but lamenting the fact that Time wasn't made immutable. A thing Parsley agrees with as you acknowledge below.

Asha'rah ruined many things with her rebellion. Striving is not one of them. Nobody's choices were erased. Nobody started having their choices made for them.

Forcing all universes and timelines to adopt the worldview she was fighting against, lest they succumb and die seems like pretty much, "having their choices made for them". Splitting hairs by saying they didn't have choices erased, when they were left with no other choices ... doesn't change that. Also, pretty much the ruination of striving.

If Ishtar doesn't care for Asha'rahs's perceptions "the reasons for mortal life, or why/how Gods find meaning in mortal striving," then she will never be able to make her point of Asha'rah being a hypocrite. Hypocrisy is not about the merits of any particular values system. Hypocrisy is about a person violating their own values system. Asha'rah gave Ishtar the context she would need to make a proper judgment about hypocrisy - i.e. Asha'rah's own values system.

If Ishtar thinks Asha'rah messed up, is a lousy god, is a liar, or is failing to treat hakai the same way as time travel when she should, these are all things which can be discussed on their own merits. But none of them have anything to do with hypocrisy. To show Asha'rah is a hypocrite, Ishtar needs to show that Asha'rah is failing to follow her own values system, not that Asha'rahs' values system is flawed.

They all tie into the initial claim, which I'm honestly getting tired of restating, and yet ...

Correction to my own earlier assertion: Parsley also says that Asha'rah is a hypocrite, due to what you quoted. My bad on missing that. I'll quote it again so it isn't lost: "The fact is you wield a power you have no right to possess, just as this alternate Jinzi Pantaloons also wields a power he has no right to possess. That you saw fit to declare that the gods of old should have placed tighter restrictions on time itself to prevent the latter, while acknowledging the former, makes you a hypocrite."

Parsley's statement is based on an underlying assumption that hypocrisy can be applied from failing to follow an external code, namely Asha'rah violating the laws of Heaven. This is seen in her talk about rights of possession. But hypocrisy is about violating one's own code, not the code of somebody else. In the first place, the reason why Asha'rah tried to make Hakai secure at the time of its conception and the reason Asha'rah wants time to be secure are very different reasons.

Okay.

So I'ma repeat it one more time. Just so it's very clear.

Ishtar is calling Asha'rah a hypocrite, not because she violated the Laws of Heaven, but because she violated her own code, but feels they should have prevented others from doing the same thing.

Asha'rah took Hakai, something that was not hers. Jinzi is taking Time, something that is not his. Asha'rah then used that Hakai, to force a predetermined outcome on Universe(s) 13-18, and all of the branching timelines. Jinzi is going to use Time, to do the same thing. Which is hypocritical, because Asha'rah feels that he (or anyone else), shouldn't have been allowed to do that with Time; but feels that what she did (and what she showed everyone else what they could do to), with Hakai is not a problem.

Everything that Ishtar counters back with, feeds into this.

Then Asha'rah adds to the pile by saying, 'I'd rather kill my friend than make a choice for them', despite doing that with Indar'en. Ochazuke focuses on this one specifically and points out; and then adds onto by saying. 'You chose for Indar'en, but feeling choosing for Ishtar (by explaining yourself sufficiently) is wrong.'

A thing Ishtar agrees with, and Parsley does not comment on overtly but finds troubling.

Hakai can cause a lot of destruction and is meant to be a clean up tool of the gods, so making it secure was good sense, but Asha'rah has no inherent philosophical objection to mortals ever using hakai. The fact that mortals can be promoted to godhood shows that they can be deemed trustworthy enough to be granted hakai, just as they might be deemed trustworthy enough to be elevated to Kami (the vetting process for all this is obviously flawed, hence people like Hammer). Asha'rah has no inherent problem with mortals eventually gaining hakai or beings other than Gods of Destruction trying to gain hakai, at least beyond her overall objection about the exponential power of martial might which was the cause of her rebellion.

Which is ... how Time works. Zurvan isn't a God, and was given his station by Sihn.

So Asha'rah taking issue with one thing, and not another despite them functioning the same way, and resulting in the same 'ruination of choice/striving' when in the wrong hands; while also saying that Hakai secure but Time isn't ... is an issue to say the least.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Consider this my last post on the matter, because I'm not wasting any more time when:

Asha'rah's problems are with time manipulation, for the reasons stated above. If Asha'rah had groused about how they should have made hakai completely secure and out of reach of anybody (i.e. never created hakai in the first place), then Asha'rah would be a hypocrite since she herself stole hakai and regret it. But since Asha'rah groused about time manipulation, then Parsley would have to show that stealing time isn't against Asha'rah's own code to prove Asha'rah a hypocrite. Comparing it to Asha'rah stealing hakai doesn't work because Asha'rah's own values system treats the two powers differently.

So equating time travel and hakai as things which "can do incalculable damage in the wrong hands" has objective merit as a comparison, but holds little value in this argument because Asha'rah's views on why hakai should be secure and her opposition to the use of time travel are based on different reasons, and she only has direct philosophical objections to the latter.

This little bit comes off as you saying that, "it doesn't matter what valid points are made ... because Asha'rah doesn't agree with them."

It should be pretty self-evident what's wrong with the above.

[Lord Falcon]

Ishtar's another example. See below.

Ignoring that, Ishtar's also 'spoken' with Genesis, and knows at the least what she's after, that she's not needlessly hostile, and is very young. Also that she was, prior to getting the drop on Zurvan, Sihn, Stine, and Hammer; the strongest thing Ishtar had ever come across.



The fact that he can power drain a God and consume him, is already a serious problem. The fact that he could gain any kind of anything from it, is even more of one. As a mortal to boot, it sort of reinforces the idea that Asha'rah's notion of security really isn't one.



See the issue here is that Asha'rah either, 1) didn't design it as well as she wants everyone to believe, 2) intentionally designed it poorly.

So it's more like concluding Alcatraz is insecure because it was designed with a glaring flaw that has been exploited more than once. That Ishtar is sort of a poster child for the flaw (she was infused with Hakai under Asha'rah's nose ... the creator of Hakai), let alone Rex, Genesis; and the fact Sakin and his underlings are searching for Hakai so they can strip it from the holder, is hardly ambiguous. It's simply not secure.

Asha'rah is not at all aware of any conversation Ishtar has had with Genesis, and would have been very interested in hearing about it.

That said, yeah, I think we have all the facts and are just seeing them through very different contexts. The multiverse is a hundred million years old. Universe 15 is 50,000,000 years old. It has been 100,000 years since the War in the Heavens. And now, after all this time, we have half, possibly one and a half cases of mortals who weren't meant to get divine energies getting said divine energies. Given the utter ruin and chaos that the usual systems have been allowed to fall apart into, the security of hakai is in extremely good shape. It's a problem to be dealt with certainly, but it doesn't make Asha'rah's top 10 crises.

Another lens affecting how we're perceiving these things (and I think is bleeding over into how we're discussing it here, as much as we've both tried to maintain separation) is that Asha'rah is much more into relativity than Ishtar is. There is no absolute security. Mortals may eventually find a way to get hakai, or time travel, or create a universe for themselves, or beat the everloving **** out of gods just by being that much stronger. Asha'rah wouldn't consider Jiren's existence to mean the position of the gods was insecure, for example. There are always extraordinary cases, exceptions to the rule. And if things progress well, mortals will inspire and begin to surpass the vision of the gods, which will almost inevitably mean pushing aside some of the training wheels the gods have imposed.

Ishtar is your character, so I'm reluctant to contradict you on her background, but I was under the impression that Ishtar was deliberately infused with Hakai despite being a non-god, with the idea being to see if she could be a suitable god of destruction. Like, once Cleric put both Asha'rah and Shekhi'nah as the people who were directly responsible for creating Ishtar, it seemed natural that this was from hence Ishtar's 'destiny' to become a GoD originated from. But if you're saying that Ishtar was infused with hakai by somebody else's doing and Asha'rah was completely unaware of it, I'd really want to hear about this.

If you replace someone's parachute with an anvil, and they unknowingly jump out of a plane, was it their choice to jump to their cartoonish death ? Predetermined outcomes defeats the notion of striving, and is in essence what rewriting time accomplishes. Something Asha'rah is out and out against. So when Asha'rah waged a war that dismantled heaven, and then made it impossible to fix what she ruined by showing everyone that the main Arbiter of order and balance, can be power-jacked; she determined how the universe would play out for everyone, across all timelines.

The only real difference between what she did, and what Jinzi wishes to do is that she skipped several steps. She didn't repeat, and repeat, and repeat, until she got the outcome she wanted. She simply made it so that there was no choice for anyone. Similarly. Asha'rah knew what Indar'en was going to do, before he did it. So she created a scenario to take advantage of that fact. And despite the attempt to, you can't say she hoped he'd choose differently, considering she straight up told Ishtar she knew he was going to try stopping her at the end of the day.

It also seems like you're intentionally trying to skew this here, by saying 'he failed to actualize it', when Asha'rah took advantage of knowing what he'd choose, and then designed a scenario where she was guaranteed to kill him, because of that choice. It was a predetermined outcome.

If you replace someone's parachute with an anvil, and they jump out of a plane without knowledge of this, it was their choice to jump to safety and your choice to kill them cartoonishly. Nobody's choice was taken away.

Asha'rah said she knew Indar'en would react a certain way, and prepared for his reaction accordingly. This didn't remove his ability to choose for twofold reasons: (a) when someone says "I knew you would do that" they really mean "I highly suspected you would do that" because none of us know the future for sure; and (b) Indar'en still made the choice to attack Asha'rah and attempt to kill her or forcibly bring her in.

Understand this: 99.9999999999% of the time, "you leave me no choice" is a bullshit statement. Everyone has a choice. Manipulation doesn't matter. Believing the wrong information doesn't matter. All outcomes from all possible choices being the same doesn't matter. What matters is that you choose. That is a choice. That is what striving is about. Everything else is outcome-related.

As a side note, Gods of Destruction were not the main arbiters or order and balance. They were a force created to maintain balance with the existing energies of creation being exerted.

Ishtar's call of hypocrisy is ... again:

For using Hakai the same way Jinzi plans to use time; but lamenting the fact that Time wasn't made immutable. A thing Parsley agrees with as you acknowledge below.




Forcing all universes and timelines to adopt the worldview she was fighting against, lest they succumb and die seems like pretty much, "having their choices made for them". Splitting hairs by saying they didn't have choices erased, when they were left with no other choices ... doesn't change that. Also, pretty much the ruination of striving.



They all tie into the initial claim, which I'm honestly getting tired of restating, and yet ...



Okay.

So I'ma repeat it one more time. Just so it's very clear.

Ishtar is calling Asha'rah a hypocrite, not because she violated the Laws of Heaven, but because she violated her own code, but feels they should have prevented others from doing the same thing.

Asha'rah took Hakai, something that was not hers. Jinzi is taking Time, something that is not his. Asha'rah then used that Hakai, to force a predetermined outcome on Universe(s) 13-18, and all of the branching timelines. Jinzi is going to use Time, to do the same thing. Which is hypocritical, because Asha'rah feels that he (or anyone else), shouldn't have been allowed to do that with Time; but feels that what she did (and what she showed everyone else what they could do to), with Hakai is not a problem.

Everything that Ishtar counters back with, feeds into this.

Then Asha'rah adds to the pile by saying, 'I'd rather kill my friend than make a choice for them', despite doing that with Indar'en. Ochazuke focuses on this one specifically and points out; and then adds onto by saying. 'You chose for Indar'en, but feeling choosing for Ishtar (by explaining yourself sufficiently) is wrong.'

A thing Ishtar agrees with, and Parsley does not comment on overtly but finds troubling.


Which is ... how Time works. Zurvan isn't a God, and was given his station by Sihn.

So Asha'rah taking issue with one thing, and not another despite them functioning the same way, and resulting in the same 'ruination of choice/striving' when in the wrong hands; while also saying that Hakai secure but Time isn't ... is an issue to say the least.

So as I've laid out above, that is why Asha'rah opposes time travel. Time travel destroys the choices people have already made (and the striving they did in the process) and prevents them from choosing by attempting to reduce reality and everyone in it to a repeatable set of variables. The only other thing which destroys people's choices is mind control (and even then it depends on the flavor of it, as some forms of brainwashing might still allow people to make all of their own choices under Asha'rah's model).

"Asha'rah then used that Hakai, to force a predetermined outcome on Universe(s) 13-18, and all of the branching timelines." Given what I've said above, you should be able to see why this statement appears untrue to me. The development of the nuke didn't force a bunch of nations to make nukes, though this was a logical and highly probable outcome. A whole bunch of choices were made to get nukes. Nothing about choice is predetermined except with repeated time travel or some forms of mind control.

The policy of general non-interference has little to do with Asha'rah's personal philosophy regarding the striving of all things. It does have to do with Asha'rah's perception of the purpose of creation. Asha'rah would not be making any choice for Ishtar by talking to her. I didn't get that Ochazuke was trying to say Asha'rah was a hypocrite for not pursuing Ishtar, merely that is was stupid and unproductive (which Asha'rah agreed with!)

[Lord Falcon]

Consider this my last post on the matter, because I'm not wasting any more time when:



This little bit comes off as you saying that, "it doesn't matter what valid points are made ... because Asha'rah doesn't agree with them."

It should be pretty self-evident what's wrong with the above.

Asha'rah has plenty of traits worthy of criticism. And plenty of points already made would be worthy at least giving her scrutiny. But the charge is hypocrisy, so nobody gets to use any values system but Asha'rah's own to judge her on that. While your characterization of the quote shows something that is self-evidently wrong, the quote itself works just fine as far as I can see.


So here's a real example of Asha'rah being a hypocrite: Asha'rah is completely against time travel. She accepts Chrona's help to use time travel to save Erosa. Asha'rah violated her own code to save Erosa. This is hypocrisy.

A lot of what I've been hearing has sounded like criticism of Asha'rah's values system, which is fine and good! That's a conversation well worth having. But having a flawed values system is not hypocrisy, and I've been very confused by those points as a result.

[MrSandman]

Beast in the Maze
The culmination of Etrinas experience within the perpetual maze of time. A state of being forged from thousands of deaths and rebirths, fighting tooth and nail again impossible odds, then suppressed within her mind. Can be triggered by will, or when her magic is suppressed. By triggering memories of her time in the maze, she reawakened an inner demon mentality.....a fearless, cold, calculating animal with no fear of death nor pain. A monster trapped within a maze. While in this form all ability to use magic ceases, and in return her PL doubles while her speed and reaction time increase to three times what it normally would be. She no longer feels pain, gains a sixth sense in combat terms and gains a measure of immunity to abilities that slows or suppress her strength. Effect lasts until hostility against her ceases or she is render completely incapable of continuing combat.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

add Machine Gun Fist / Giga Machine Gun Fist , Thunder Machine Gun Fist / Giga Thunder Machine Gun Fist and Lightning Blast to Althena's list of techniques

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Christmas/New Years gift bonus! This bonus does not come with a technique upgrade FYI.


Current Power Levels:

Asha’rah: 750,000

Chuan: 500,000

Etrina: 533,000

Erosa: 550,000

Held: 500,000

Ishtar: 700,000

Jack: 566,000

Meagan: 610,000

Nevanlinna: 520,000

Parsley: 525,000

Ochazuke: 766,000

Charco: 833,000

Sarada: 650,000

Tasure: 500,000

Totoma: 600,000

Zaofan: 800,000

Praxat: 425,000

Sasheem: 585,000

Dash: 566,000

Cyanna: 425,000

[Sub-Zero MKA]

Thanks, boss man! Happy new year

[Tami]

Thanks Cleric!

Wow, based on Power level alone (which isn't enough) Dash could beat up Parsley.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Nice. Thanks Bossman.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

Khan's favorite songs list

1. What is Love by Haddaway

2. You Spin Me Round (Like a Record) by Dead Or Alive

3. She Blinded me with Science by Thomas Dolby

4. Take On Me by a-Ha


5. I'm too Sexy by Right Said Fred

6. Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now by Starship

7. Never Gonna give you up by Rick Astley

8. Achy Breaky Heart by Billy Ray Cyrus

9. Who Are You by the Who

10. Final Countdown by Europe

11. Macho Man by Village People

12. Baltimora by Tarzan Boy


13. Put it on The Ritz by Taco


14. I just die in your Arms by Cutting Crew


15. Whip it by Devo


16. Funky Town by Lips Inc


17. Don't Worry be Happy by Bobby McFerrin


18. Mr. Vain by Culture Beat


19. Whoomp! ( There It Is) By Tag Team


20. EVERYTHING I OWN by Bread

[grampagen]

Happy New Year, everybody!

Time to poll ALL THE 2018 WARRIORS.

From game start to now, the same rules apply; pick 5, but not your own. Only lamers do that.

I hopefully will be back later tonight. Wrapup conversations to attend to, a certain Dinosaur boy waiting in the wings...

...if Alt Zaofan is still taking sparring sessions, might have Ochazuke step up.

[Tami]

Happy New Year, everybody!

Time to poll ALL THE 2018 WARRIORS.

From game start to now, the same rules apply; pick 5, but not your own. Only lamers do that.

I hopefully will be back later tonight. Wrapup conversations to attend to, a certain Dinosaur boy waiting in the wings...

...if Alt Zaofan is still taking sparring sessions, might have Ochazuke step up.

I think you left off Asha'rah