Dragonball M: A DBZ RPG Sign-Up and Discussion Thread II

[Lord Falcon]

Little bit of pertinent plot housekeeping

Asha'rah's conversation with Fife (starting at the end)

The Parasite's exposition


Just to keep motive and stakes straight

Asha'rah's going to have to wreak some good'ol fashioned wrath upon some tumor bois.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Asha'rah certainly bears significant responsibility for the state of the universe as it is now. More than Sakin? More than Zeno? Not as far as I see it. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Asha'rah fought for a cause she saw as for the good of all creation.

As you see it. What did Sakin force Asha'rah into doing ? What then, did Zeno do ?

[grampagen]

Rare footage of Alt-Zxu'ro at the end of Humanity and the start of Earth-4

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

The way I see it is that Asha’rah bears a level of responsibility. Less than Sakin (who sought to manipulate the system and her for his benefit, damn anything else), and less than Zeno who made the system.

Remember, Sakin is the one who convinced Asha’rah that she needed to go to such actions because he had blocked her earlier attempts (she was unawares) at speaking to Zeno.

[Lord Falcon]

As you see it. What did Sakin force Asha'rah into doing ? What then, did Zeno do ?

Force? Nothing, of course. Sakin manipulated both sides into war, and Zeno's the all-powerful entity who sealed the universes off.

I get that things like who's responsible for what are subject to interpretation, but trying to pin the whole of it on Asha'rah defies credibility.

[grampagen]

The way I see it is that Asha’rah bears a level of responsibility. Less than Sakin (who sought to manipulate the system and her for his benefit, damn anything else), and less than Zeno who made the system.

Remember, Sakin is the one who convinced Asha’rah that she needed to go to such actions because he had blocked her earlier attempts (she was unawares) at speaking to Zeno.

As far as I understand it - using the structures of Dragonball canon as a loose skeleton since we kinda freewheel it - Sakin is supposed to be the primary envoy to Zeno as U15's Angel.

He's also paired with Inda'ren as the God of Destruction - ex: Beerus and Whis - and is supposed to be dormant, but that's clearly not the case right now.

...hmm, that's a whole other kettle of fish to look forward to, isn't it? Putting that away for later.

Anyway, there's 5 other universes involved, and some of them were allied with Asha'rah, right? That means there were potentially 4 other likeminded Angels (Stine is out) who could be used as alternates, or the other Gods of Destruction (Except our old friend Hammer). And possibly the unsavory factions like the Demons.

I might be misunderstanding, but it seems there were a lot of other channels Asha'rah could've used?

EDIT:

Oh yeah, it's not especially relevant since he's dead, but who was the Kaioshin Inda'ren was paired with?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

The way I see it is that Asha’rah bears a level of responsibility. Less than Sakin (who sought to manipulate the system and her for his benefit, damn anything else), and less than Zeno who made the system.

Remember, Sakin is the one who convinced Asha’rah that she needed to go to such actions because he had blocked her earlier attempts (she was unawares) at speaking to Zeno.

So the issue with this, is that all he did was block the message; a message that could have been sent by an Angel that was on Asha'rah's side. If she was manipulated so easily into deciding that war was the only option after only being told 'no' a few times, despite having other options ... this raises the question of whether or not Asha'rah wanted the war herself. Which all signs point to, given Asha'rah's opinions on the matter.

Which then means all Sakin did was give her a flimsy pretense to go, "time to wage war", and step back. This also means he really didn't do much, to manipulate Indar'en. Asha'rah was noted as already being warned by Indar'en before the war (when she started rallying troops), and her kicking off a war that was gonna destabilize a lot of stuff ... was kinda sorta his job to stop.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

And Gen pointed it out far more eloquently, but the bottom line is. It really looks like Asha'rah wanted the war, and all Sakin did was agree.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

As far as I understand it - using the structures of Dragonball canon as a loose skeleton since we kinda freewheel it - Sakin is supposed to be the primary envoy to Zeno as U15's Angel.

He's also paired with Inda'ren as the God of Destruction - ex: Beerus and Whis - and is supposed to be dormant, but that's clearly not the case right now.

...hmm, that's a whole other kettle of fish to look forward to, isn't it? Putting that away for later.

Anyway, there's 5 other universes involved, and some of them were allied with Asha'rah, right? That means there were potentially 4 other likeminded Angels (Stine is out) who could be used as alternates, or the other Gods of Destruction (Except our old friend Hammer). And possibly the unsavory factions like the Demons.

I might be misunderstanding, but it seems there were a lot of other channels Asha'rah could've used?

EDIT:

Oh yeah, it's not especially relevant since he's dead, but who was the Kaioshin Inda'ren was paired with?

We shall see.

And the GoD was not tied to the Angels back then. Much like the GoD’s being tied to Supreme Kai’s now, neither system was in effect back then. Both came into effect after the Sealing. Remember, there are no more Gods of Creation and the Supreme Kai’s became the new counter to the GoD’s.

[grampagen]

We shall see.

And the GoD was not tied to the Angels back then. Much like the GoD’s being tied to Supreme Kai’s now, neither system was in effect back then. Both came into effect after the Sealing. Remember, there are no more Gods of Creation and the Supreme Kai’s became the new counter to the GoD’s.

Hmm alright, I suppose that makes sense. Are we running on the premise that U16 - U11 are 'prototype' universes and the Gods' filing system goes in descending order of continuity?

Still, there were others, right?

[Lord Falcon]

Frankly, I would like to blame not trying to work out the exact details of how Sakin's faction manipulated both factions into war beforehand. I mean to do it before too long, but it would necessarily involve fairly complicated plots that I have no time to work out right now (plus it's not my forte). But here's the bottom line: Asha'rah wanted to plead for her cause. She was manipulated into seeing war as the last hope for doing so, and Zeno's faction was similarly manipulated. I would imagine Sakin had several angels on her side.

I would like to think that Asha'rah had demonstrated she is not a complete oblivious moron, and that what would be needed to manipulate her into such drastic action, while possible, wouldn't be child's play.

But no, apparently Asha'rah is obviously a warmongering zealot who was chomping at the bit to murder her friends and risk the utter obliteration of everything she had worked her entire existence to create. At least that's what it's felt like these past few months.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Hmm alright, I suppose that makes sense. Are we running on the premise that U16 - U11 are 'prototype' universes and the Gods' filing system goes in descending order of continuity?

Still, there were others, right?

Not sure I understand.

13-18 were Sealed away so what filing system do you mean? Sorry but I think I’m having a dumb moment here.

[grampagen]

Not sure I understand.

13-18 were Sealed away so what filing system do you mean? Sorry but I think I’m having a dumb moment here.

Hmm it was poorly worded, sorry about that. I'll reframe the question.

Did U1 come first, or U18?

Frankly, I would like to blame not trying to work out the exact details of how Sakin's faction manipulated both factions into war beforehand. I mean to do it before too long, but it would necessarily involve fairly complicated plots that I have no time to work out right now (plus it's not my forte). But here's the bottom line: Asha'rah wanted to plead for her cause. She was manipulated into seeing war as the last hope for doing so, and Zeno's faction was similarly manipulated. I would imagine Sakin had several angels on her side.

Alright, this is fair. Time is constrained for many of us, after all.

For my part, I'm just trying to sort through the order of events and the various circumstances surrounding the plot is all. Ochazuke is kinda...circumstantially involved, I guess, in the more cosmic end of things, but if it's going to effect everyone, may as well keep it straight.

I would like to think that Asha'rah had demonstrated she is not a complete oblivious moron, and that what would be needed to manipulate her into such drastic action, while possible, wouldn't be child's play.

Again, fair. I'm mostly curious over the exact circumstances, really. To be honest most of this would probably be cleared up by a short solo piece, time provided.

But no, apparently Asha'rah is obviously a warmongering zealot who was chomping at the bit to murder her friends and risk the utter obliteration of everything she had worked her entire existence to create. At least that's what it's felt like these past few months.

I see it more as a personal tragedy - with very far reaching consequences - that despite her advocacy of the finer points of existence she had to renege on proving the validity of that course and instead embody part of the very thing she was fighting against, but your mileage may vary.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

I mean, I saw it as Sakin manipulating both sides specifically to achieve his goals. Her stealing Hakai was not on the docket so he panicked and got out of Dodge.

But he did lead Asha’rah down a path of rebellion for thousands of years. Remember folks, he convinced her to rebel because amidst that chaos he was going to supplant the Grand Priest.

Now, the extremes she went to are her own doings. But gathering allies and stuff was part of his plan.

And yeah, he was pretty much manipulating most of the other divine beings around too, feeding false info or just not letting certain information reach certain ears.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Hmm it was poorly worded, sorry about that. I'll reframe the question.

Did U1 come first, or U18?



Alright, this is fair. Time is constrained for many of us, after all.

For my part, I'm just trying to sort through the order of events and the various circumstances surrounding the plot is all. Ochazuke is kinda...circumstantially involved, I guess, in the more cosmic end of things, but if it's going to effect everyone, may as well keep it straight.



Again, fair. I'm mostly curious over the exact circumstances, really. To be honest most of this would probably be cleared up by a short solo piece, time provided.



I see it more as a personal tragedy - with very far reaching consequences - that despite her advocacy of the finer points of existence she had to renege on proving the validity of that course and instead embody part of the very thing she was fighting against, but your mileage may vary.

Ahh, sorry, yeah. I understand now.

18 came first. It was the prototype universe that Zeno started with.