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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Interesting. I wonder just how far should the Greek Scholar be trusted in Wonder Woman when it comes to the Amazons?
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 08-20-2018 at 04:42 PM.
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  2. #47
    Incredible Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Interesting. I wonder just how far should the Greek Scholar be trusted in Wonder Woman when it comes to the Amazons?
    About as far as you can throw a copy of Historia

    Feel free to mine the Greeks for ideas, but make sure you filter it all through an anti-misogynistic bias. Eg, if you want to include references to the Trojan War, just go ahead. Or if someone wants to have three Amazon tribes, you have the Themyscirans, the Lycastians, or the Chadesians.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    (Now, if DC really want to do a real epic of Amazon society in classical times, then there is arguably no better story than Anabasis.)
    I assume you mean the story of Alexander the Great and Queen Thalestris? Because the Anabasis of Xenophon (the campaign of the 10.000 Greek mercenaries) does not mention amazons at all.

    Back to the original question - as long as Diana can't return to Paradise Island, the Amazons don't need any 'fixing' or 'world-building', because they effectively do not exist in the DCU. For me, the first thing that needs 'fixing' is: Diana needs to be able to return to Paradise Island, as she could in most of her history (except for the 'white jumpsuit' era). Why? Because (IMHO) DC needs at least one superhero with an intact family and home. Superman can never return to Krypton (well, he has the Kents as ersatz family), and Batman will never get his parents back. At least one of the big 3 needs to have family and home. I'm sick and tired of heroes with broken families. Also, access to P.I. gives Diana a possible love interest (whether it be Kasia, or Io), and some superhuman support if required.

    Next, make a decision (and stick to it!) about the name of Diana's home. Is is P.I. or Themiscyra? My suggestion is: the island is called Paradise Island, and the big city is Themiscyra. There may be other, smaller, cities on the island, e. g. the home of the Banas.

    After those foundations have been laid, you can start with 'world-building'. I would prefer the Perez/Rucka version, with a mix of magic (provided by the Themiscyra amazons) and technology (provided by the Bana amazons). No sex pirates, of course. No children. Diana is the only child of P.I.

  4. #49
    Incredible Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    I assume you mean the story of Alexander the Great and Queen Thalestris? Because the Anabasis of Xenophon (the campaign of the 10.000 Greek mercenaries) does not mention amazons at all.
    No, I was thinking about the classica Anabasis, but adapting the basic story to the Amazons. Eg, after freeing themselves from slavery under Heracles (or Theseus), they try to escape the wrath of Zeus and march to security. Ie, grab the general plot, file off the serial numbers, use the Amazons instead of the Greeks, let Hippolyta stand in for Xenophon, and off you go.

    (Or alternatively, if the Amazons gets to Themyscira at once with divine help, use Anabasis as the origin story of the Bana-Mighdall.)

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Back to the original question - as long as Diana can't return to Paradise Island, the Amazons don't need any 'fixing' or 'world-building', because they effectively do not exist in the DCU.
    I'd say you still need a handle on them, because Diana spent her entire childhood and adolescence there, and writers should be free to tell tales of Diana's backstory before she left for Man's World. Personally, I'm torn about direct contacts between Themyscira and Man's World. On one hand it's a wonderful source of adventure, on the other I believe it needs mystical and remote qualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    For me, the first thing that needs 'fixing' is: Diana needs to be able to return to Paradise Island, as she could in most of her history (except for the 'white jumpsuit' era). Why? Because (IMHO) DC needs at least one superhero with an intact family and home. Superman can never return to Krypton (well, he has the Kents as ersatz family), and Batman will never get his parents back. At least one of the big 3 needs to have family and home. I'm sick and tired of heroes with broken families. Also, access to P.I. gives Diana a possible love interest (whether it be Kasia, or Io), and some superhuman support if required.

    Next, make a decision (and stick to it!) about the name of Diana's home. Is is P.I. or Themiscyra? My suggestion is: the island is called Paradise Island, and the big city is Themiscyra. There may be other, smaller, cities on the island, e. g. the home of the Banas.

    After those foundations have been laid, you can start with 'world-building'. I would prefer the Perez/Rucka version, with a mix of magic (provided by the Themiscyra amazons) and technology (provided by the Bana amazons). No sex pirates, of course. No children. Diana is the only child of P.I.
    I'd say that the Kents are Superman's family, no ifs and buts about it (I think you get into some really ugly waters around adopted kids if you claim otherwise). There are also strong themes about sacrifice and adulthood around Diana leaving her childhood home never to be able to return.

    I'm not that concerned about the name. I'm not sure the Amazons really have given their island a name in any case. I'd simply have Diana refer to her home as Themyscira, and then have Paradise Island as a nickname that first was used by Steve and then spread around. That way the name becomes a cultural signifier.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    No, I was thinking about the classica Anabasis, but adapting the basic story to the Amazons. Eg, after freeing themselves from slavery under Heracles (or Theseus), they try to escape the wrath of Zeus and march to security. Ie, grab the general plot, file off the serial numbers, use the Amazons instead of the Greeks, let Hippolyta stand in for Xenophon, and off you go.

    (Or alternatively, if the Amazons gets to Themyscira at once with divine help, use Anabasis as the origin story of the Bana-Mighdall.)
    I see - something like 'Odyssey of the Amazons'. My issue with that (besides that the plot was confusing) is that the amazons are too blood-thirsty in that story. In the very first issue of 'Odyssey', we have a bloody battle, and one of the amazons exclaims "I didn't have so much fun since we stole Hippolyta's chariot!" Killing is fun?! Wouldn't the 'Anabasis of the Amazons' also be a sequence of battles? And I guess that 95% of the WW readers don't care for ancient Greek history anyway...

    Going back to Alexander and Thalestris - when the WW movie showed, and the big discussions started about 'clay origin' vs. 'Zeus origin', I thought 'well, if nothing is sacred in the DCU anymore, why not try something completely different (just for fun)?'

    Let's say the Amazons go to Themiscyra after their run-in with Heracles, or after the Trojan War (around 1.500 B.C.). Let's say they first do the 'sex pirate' thing to replenish their numbers, and stop that practice later (so that Diana does not need to know about it). After ca. 1.000 years (around 330 B.C.), Hippolyta desires to have a daughter. With divine magic, she can make sure that her child will be female. And as she is a Queen, she will only mate with a King - and with the most powerful. She sets her sights on Alexander.

    Killing him afterwards is out of the question, so she needs to cover her tracks. Of course, she can't claim to be that Hippolyta who fought against Heracles - that would give away the fact that she is immortal. She takes another name (Thalestris), she claims to live in some far away country, and she also claims not to speak or understand Greek (which saves her a lot of nosy questions). With a bodyguard of 300 Amazons, she leaves Themiscyra, and meets Alexander (as told in the Alexander romance). Diana is then the daughter of Hippolyta and Alexander the Great. Ta-da!

    (Of course, as I said, most readers wouldn't care for ancient Greek history; and we have more than enough origin stories for Diana anyway. It was just my personal idea of merging some legends with the DCU.)

  6. #51
    Incredible Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    I see - something like 'Odyssey of the Amazons'. My issue with that (besides that the plot was confusing) is that the amazons are too blood-thirsty in that story. In the very first issue of 'Odyssey', we have a bloody battle, and one of the amazons exclaims "I didn't have so much fun since we stole Hippolyta's chariot!" Killing is fun?! Wouldn't the 'Anabasis of the Amazons' also be a sequence of battles? And I guess that 95% of the WW readers don't care for ancient Greek history anyway...
    It's not so much ancient Greek history for its own sake, but to provide texture to the background and because it's a great source of stories.

    But yeah, Odyssey of the Amazons was a big letdown. Not only were they blood-thirsty, the Amazons were dysfunctional as a group, the plot ran on deus ex machina, the writing was all over the place (and not in a good way), and the background was a nonsensical mix of times. When they all ended up in Valhalla I uttered the eight deadly words and gave up.

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Going back to Alexander and Thalestris - when the WW movie showed, and the big discussions started about 'clay origin' vs. 'Zeus origin', I thought 'well, if nothing is sacred in the DCU anymore, why not try something completely different (just for fun)?'
    I believe the Zeus origin started with New 52, so it predates the movie with several years.

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Let's say the Amazons go to Themiscyra after their run-in with Heracles, or after the Trojan War (around 1.500 B.C.). Let's say they first do the 'sex pirate' thing to replenish their numbers, and stop that practice later (so that Diana does not need to know about it). After ca. 1.000 years (around 330 B.C.), Hippolyta desires to have a daughter. With divine magic, she can make sure that her child will be female. And as she is a Queen, she will only mate with a King - and with the most powerful. She sets her sights on Alexander.

    Killing him afterwards is out of the question, so she needs to cover her tracks. Of course, she can't claim to be that Hippolyta who fought against Heracles - that would give away the fact that she is immortal. She takes another name (Thalestris), she claims to live in some far away country, and she also claims not to speak or understand Greek (which saves her a lot of nosy questions). With a bodyguard of 300 Amazons, she leaves Themiscyra, and meets Alexander (as told in the Alexander romance). Diana is then the daughter of Hippolyta and Alexander the Great. Ta-da!
    Having Alexander as Diana's father I view as just marginally better than having Zeus or Heracles as her father.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean it depends . How blood thirsty should the Banas be? Honestly they should be aggressive but more often than not not by much. With paradise island I would say they are peaceful and only kill if there is no other choice.
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