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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Night Cries is irrc without the Joker.


    When it comes to DITF, yeah he killed a Robin but appart from this the Joker how he is writter there is nothing special and not really different from previos apearences.
    I know, which is why I said Batman's story. Neither TKJ nor DITF affected me if we are talking about which is messed up and I consider the former to be really overrated.

    And again, it's not a matter of what you feel about DITF. It's a matter of simple fact that it had a big impact and made the joker a bigger villain.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And again, it's not a matter of what you feel about DITF. It's a matter of simple fact that it had a big impact and made the joker a bigger villain.
    Don't know, when I look at the post DITF Joker stories noting really had really changed. I mean one of his next big appaerences was the Robin mini series where Tim took him down solo, and I can't really rember him havimg any real big story untill No Mans land, during the 90s.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy View Post
    Tim Drake was introduced less than a year later so he would not have been Created and maybe Anarchy too because he was originally planned to be Robin. Stephanie Brown would be a completely different character. If Jason had a significant upgrade in popularity he would have gotten a series and if not then Jason will be retired and Zero Hour would have retuned Dick Grayson to Robin at 18 instead of Nightwing. Nightwing would have been a Identity Known for the NTT and never applying to the Bat Books. Damian or any other Robin doesn’t get created as Dick would have finally received and updated costume. Barbara Gordon does become Oracle but DickBabs doesn’t become a thing
    This is interesting to theorize about.

    If it had been decided, following DC's telephone hotline poll, that Jason Todd would live rather than die, I absolutely agree that the years between Death in the Family and Zero Hour would have ultimately decided the fate of Jason Todd as Robin.

    In my estimation, Dennis O'Neil and the staff on the Batman books would have had a prime opportunity to right the perceived wrongs pertaining to Jason Todd's character following Death in the Family. As a consequence to a near fatal brush with death, Jason's entire characterization could have been rectified to literally wherever DC wanted to take Jason. Using the near fatal attack by the Joker as the catalyst in changing Jason's attitude to something more akin to what Tim Drake characterization brought to the table as Robin, or even going back to Jason's Pre-Crisis interpretation. If it was decided that was the best way to go.

    Basically, DC would have had about a 5 year window to get Jason Todd as Robin up and running as the rightful heir to Dick Grayson's Robin, and get the character more warmly received by the readership at that time. I personally think this was achievable, and fairly likely to a great extent. With Tim Drake being nonexistent, it would have been Jason Todd's Robin getting the Neal Adams costume makeover, and it would have been Jason Todd's Robin getting atleast one shot at a mini-series in 1990. Perhaps, as the story goes, a long running Robin title book...

    However, if things were clearly not working out, I sincerely doubt DC's editorial would have repeated another Death in the Family story line, with the difference being that only this time Jason Todd actually does get killed.

    Rather, I agree that Zero Hour would have been the opening for DC to bid Jason Todd's Robin farewell. How this would have been implemented, is anyone's guess, but given the continuity changes as a result of Zero Hour, I agree that IF the near 10 year experiment of Jason Todd as Robin wasn't working out, then DC returning Dick Grayson to the role of Robin might have been the desired plan by DC Comics to get the character of Robin back healthy again with the Batman mythos. But personally, with this scenario, it would make more sense to me that Jason Todd would have remained in the original classic Robin costume, with Dick Grayson's return as Robin getting the Neal Adam revamp costume treatment following Zero Hour. Even though that would be far fetched since it's clear DC wanted a change in Robin's costume, and which was implemented in about 1990, and Zero Hour not taking place until 1994.

    Like I said, interesting topic.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Night Cries is irrc without the Joker.


    When it comes to DITF, yeah he killed a Robin but appart from this the Joker how he is writter there is nothing special and not really different from previos apearences.
    If you're comparing high profile stories like DITF, KJ and TDKR with, say, the first two post death stories which are just tame, you can have a point. But if you compare it with the character's publishing star power and network the following decades to this day, it's a no brainer.

    Those stories cemented Joker as DC's favorite villain to hate.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Don't know, when I look at the post DITF Joker stories noting really had really changed. I mean one of his next big appaerences was the Robin mini series where Tim took him down solo, and I can't really rember him havimg any real big story untill No Mans land, during the 90s.

    I don't know, that Robin II miniseries I felt gave him a LOT of Credit. Tim was flat out terrified of Joker (but fought back anyway like a hero should) The very mention of the name 'Joker' HAS to creep out anyone wearing a Robin Costume. Jason's Ghost really Haunted Tim and Bruce for YEARS and they never backed away from reminding us that JOKER was the one who had scored that Victory.

    He was never a huge physical threat or anything... because he's a clown vs. heavily trained martial artist/detectives. He SHOULDN'T be a huge threat. It was his unpredictableness that made him a threat... but every since that crowbar scene... He cast a big shadow that HE KILLED ROBIN... and neither we nor the characters ever forgot it.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    Rather, I agree that Zero Hour would have been the opening for DC to bid Jason Todd's Robin farewell. How this would have been implemented, is anyone's guess, but given the continuity changes as a result of Zero Hour, I agree that IF the near 10 year experiment of Jason Todd as Robin wasn't working out, then DC returning Dick Grayson to the role of Robin might have been the desired plan by DC Comics to get the character of Robin back healthy again with the Batman mythos. But personally, with this scenario, it would make more sense to me that Jason Todd would have remained in the original classic Robin costume, with Dick Grayson's return as Robin getting the Neal Adam revamp costume treatment following Zero Hour. Even though that would be far fetched since it's clear DC wanted a change in Robin's costume, and which was implemented in about 1990, and Zero Hour not taking place until 1994.
    Interesting idea, but I doubt they would have moved Dick back into being Robin. They had already invested heavily into the Nightwing persona and with New Teen Titans being the sales blockbuster it was, I really don't see them backtracking on that. If they were to get rid of Todd in Zero Hour, I think that's the point they would have either phased out the Robin role for a number of years in a "back to basics Batman" idea or just introduced the new Robin then (be it Tim or not).

    Then again, this is the same company that took the first chance they had to revert Barbara back to Batgirl, but that was under a different leadership than the Zero Hour era.
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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Interesting idea, but I doubt they would have moved Dick back into being Robin. They had already invested heavily into the Nightwing persona and with New Teen Titans being the sales blockbuster it was, I really don't see them backtracking on that. If they were to get rid of Todd in Zero Hour, I think that's the point they would have either phased out the Robin role for a number of years in a "back to basics Batman" idea or just introduced the new Robin then (be it Tim or not).

    Then again, this is the same company that took the first chance they had to revert Barbara back to Batgirl, but that was under a different leadership than the Zero Hour era.
    I can think of a few chances they had to revert Barbara back to Batgirl that they passed up...

    As for Dick regaining the Robin role... I don't know. Wasn't New Teen Titans starting to stagnate at that time. They were once at the top of the charts...but Dick was turned into Nightwing because of licensing issues for a cartoon that never actually happened. He had that identity for only what? 3-4 years

    I don't think Dick would have ever gone back to the original costume... but it doesn't stretch the imagination for them to upgrade him like Earth-2's Robin and have him realize that was HIS name and HIS identity and it wasn't a great idea to have it become a franchise. He could have come up with some kind of 'adult' Robin suit and it would have played pretty organically.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    This is interesting to theorize about.

    If it had been decided, following DC's telephone hotline poll, that Jason Todd would live rather than die, I absolutely agree that the years between Death in the Family and Zero Hour would have ultimately decided the fate of Jason Todd as Robin.

    In my estimation, Dennis O'Neil and the staff on the Batman books would have had a prime opportunity to right the perceived wrongs pertaining to Jason Todd's character following Death in the Family. As a consequence to a near fatal brush with death, Jason's entire characterization could have been rectified to literally wherever DC wanted to take Jason. Using the near fatal attack by the Joker as the catalyst in changing Jason's attitude to something more akin to what Tim Drake characterization brought to the table as Robin, or even going back to Jason's Pre-Crisis interpretation. If it was decided that was the best way to go.

    Basically, DC would have had about a 5 year window to get Jason Todd as Robin up and running as the rightful heir to Dick Grayson's Robin, and get the character more warmly received by the readership at that time. I personally think this was achievable, and fairly likely to a great extent. With Tim Drake being nonexistent, it would have been Jason Todd's Robin getting the Neal Adams costume makeover, and it would have been Jason Todd's Robin getting atleast one shot at a mini-series in 1990. Perhaps, as the story goes, a long running Robin title book...

    However, if things were clearly not working out, I sincerely doubt DC's editorial would have repeated another Death in the Family story line, with the difference being that only this time Jason Todd actually does get killed.

    Rather, I agree that Zero Hour would have been the opening for DC to bid Jason Todd's Robin farewell. How this would have been implemented, is anyone's guess, but given the continuity changes as a result of Zero Hour, I agree that IF the near 10 year experiment of Jason Todd as Robin wasn't working out, then DC returning Dick Grayson to the role of Robin might have been the desired plan by DC Comics to get the character of Robin back healthy again with the Batman mythos. But personally, with this scenario, it would make more sense to me that Jason Todd would have remained in the original classic Robin costume, with Dick Grayson's return as Robin getting the Neal Adam revamp costume treatment following Zero Hour. Even though that would be far fetched since it's clear DC wanted a change in Robin's costume, and which was implemented in about 1990, and Zero Hour not taking place until 1994.

    Like I said, interesting topic.
    DC has zero interest in righting the wrongs they do to ANY character outside their "Trinity."

  9. #39
    Spectacular Member MarkRodriguez09's Avatar
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    I guess Jason would have just stayed Robin longer. I kinda see Jason as a way to keep Robin after Dick left to become Nightwing but the fanbase missed the original dynamic duo. I mean there was a kind of a divide in the fanbase back then wether or not Batman worked better alone or if he needed Robin, especially after the Keaton films introduced many new fans to a more serious and bad ass solo Batman. They loved this 'new' take and associated Robin with the Adam West campiness. It was pretty quick and rushed how they created Tim Drake when they could have easily have left Batman going solo for another year or so.

    I guess maybe in a few years or after the 90's or whatever, Jason would have also grown up and left to become another new person (definitely not the Red Hood, but a more traditional hero like Nightwing) and they would have skipped straight to Damian. Or Jason could have been Robin long enough for Damian to come in and take over.

    At the time, Dick was the only logical choice to impersonate Batman during his time travel ordeal. I'm curious how Jason would have been. We have to remember, Jason wasn't THAT BAD. but was slowly showing signs of being kinda off to I guess soften the blow had the fans decided to kill him. The ensuing insanity came from being revived and being a villain turned anti-hero. But had all that mess never happened, he basically would have been 'Robin with attitude' but with 80% less murderous tendencies and no guns.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Interesting idea, but I doubt they would have moved Dick back into being Robin. They had already invested heavily into the Nightwing persona and with New Teen Titans being the sales blockbuster it was, I really don't see them backtracking on that.
    Arround the time of Zero Hour Dick (like most of the other original members of the New teen Tiatns) wasn't a regular in Titans anymore, around that time Arsenal was leading a new line-up of Titans.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I don't know, that Robin II miniseries I felt gave him a LOT of Credit. Tim was flat out terrified of Joker (but fought back anyway like a hero should) The very mention of the name 'Joker' HAS to creep out anyone wearing a Robin Costume. Jason's Ghost really Haunted Tim and Bruce for YEARS and they never backed away from reminding us that JOKER was the one who had scored that Victory.
    But still he was taken down by a relatively inexperienced robin without Batmans help, and didn't had imo any other big story for years after that.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    The DC universe wouldn't have an infamous example of a teenage hero getting brutally killed...and then the adult heroes allowing more kids to become superheros.

    The heroes running around with teenage sidekicks is questionable to begin with, but the whimsical/fantastical tone of the DCU made it easier to role with. Once you actually kill one of them in a pretty brutally realistic manner, there's no way to make Batman come out looking good by collecting more.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The DC universe wouldn't have an infamous example of a teenage hero getting brutally killed...and then the adult heroes allowing more kids to become superheros.

    The heroes running around with teenage sidekicks is questionable to begin with, but the whimsical/fantastical tone of the DCU made it easier to role with. Once you actually kill one of them in a pretty brutally realistic manner, there's no way to make Batman come out looking good by collecting more.
    You're absolutely correct. Beating a child to death with a crowbar was sickening--I couldn't watch the animated version of it. Then having Damian gored to death with a spear--DC didn't learn anything; Batman's got enough child soldiers to fill up his own orphanage. And it DOES make him look pretty rotten.

  14. #44
    Back for noon feeding The Shredder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I don't think Dick would have ever gone back to the original costume... but it doesn't stretch the imagination for them to upgrade him like Earth-2's Robin and have him realize that was HIS name and HIS identity and it wasn't a great idea to have it become a franchise. He could have come up with some kind of 'adult' Robin suit and it would have played pretty organically.
    Very true.

    I believe that had Jason Todd survived Death in the Family, he probably would have had the Neal Adams revamped costume that Tim Drake received back in '89/90. As DC was, from what I gather, wanting to ditch the original Robin costume anyways.

    Having said that, I think that's a pretty spot on assessment that had Dick Grayson returned to the role as Robin during/following Zero Hour, he wouldn't have returned to the original costume, but rather come up with a 'new look' to signal his return to the role. I don't believe DC would have completely erased Jason's time as Robin, so I could kinda see Dick's new Robin costume being a combination of Jason Todd's revamped costume (the Tim Drake costume), as a way to honor Jason's time as Robin in-story, with perhaps a Nightwing-esque spin on it.

    Speaking of the Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Robin, I think New Earth's Dick Grayson going back to the role of Robin would have made the similarities between the two even more profound. Cause, with the recent hype surrounding the Batman/Catwoman wedding, I couldn't help but think of the Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Batman and Catwoman history in that respect as well.

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