What if Jason didn't die?

[Aahz]

I know that is the official reason. I was just speculating on how long would Jason Todd have lasted if he had won the telephone poll. Was he on the way out anyway?

The thing is that afaik the introduction of Tim was because someone higher up wanted a Robin (I think it had to do with selling merchandise), so the Bat office might have been forced to bring Jason back (if he had won the poll) even if they didn't wanted to.

[oasis1313]

Did the telephone poll really kill Jason Todd or was DC planning on getting rid of him anyway. Maybe not dying but finding some other way of getting him out of the Bat books.

DC was planning to kill Jason anyway. They made money off that 1-900 number. There would have to be a replacement because of the merchandising, and the only hard rule was the new character had to be named Tim, in honor of Tim Burton. Tim was created to be a nice kid who just wanted to help out the Bats and meanwhile had his own family, which was a HELL of a lot more interesting than supercomputerbrain orphan/quasi-orphan instant-just-add-water worldclass perfection. The male forerunner of Harper Row. They should have stuck with Jason and let him grow into the role instead of throwing him out in such an ugly, vicious way as being beaten to death by the Joker.

[Osiris-Rex]

DC was planning to kill Jason anyway. They made money off that 1-900 number. There would have to be a replacement because of the merchandising, and the only hard rule was the new character had to be named Tim, in honor of Tim Burton. Tim was created to be a nice kid who just wanted to help out the Bats and meanwhile had his own family, which was a HELL of a lot more interesting than supercomputerbrain orphan/quasi-orphan instant-just-add-water worldclass perfection. The male forerunner of Harper Row. They should have stuck with Jason and let him grow into the role instead of throwing him out in such an ugly, vicious way as being beaten to death by the Joker.

Gotta admit I like Tim Drake a lot more than Jason Todd. I suppose they could have tried to make Jason Todd more likeable but I think he was poison fruit by then.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Hard to say really. I imagine Jason would be very different had he lived. Maybe he would still be an anti-hero maybe he would've left and picked a new identity like Dick did with Nightwing. We might not have gotten Tim Drake for a much longer time.

[phantom1592]

What about Joker?

Killing Robin was a HUGE feather in Joker's cap... but Joker wasn't really... really REALLY that dangerous before this. A death here or there, but even in the 60's show Riddler and Penguin were considered more 'arch-enemies' to Batman than Joker was.

What would Joker be like now if they didn't have to constantly try to one-up his earlier victory? Would Two-face or Riddler be higher status?

[oasis1313]

Hard to say really. I imagine Jason would be very different had he lived. Maybe he would still be an anti-hero maybe he would've left and picked a new identity like Dick did with Nightwing. We might not have gotten Tim Drake for a much longer time.

Eternity without Tim Drake would be about the right length of time.

[Aahz]

What about Joker?

Killing Robin was a HUGE feather in Joker's cap... but Joker wasn't really... really REALLY that dangerous before this. A death here or there, but even in the 60's show Riddler and Penguin were considered more 'arch-enemies' to Batman than Joker was.

What would Joker be like now if they didn't have to constantly try to one-up his earlier victory? Would Two-face or Riddler be higher status?

There was still Killing Joke that happened shortly before DITF (and is honestly a far better story).

[oasis1313]

There was still Killing Joke that happened shortly before DITF (and is honestly a far better story).

I think Jason should have been given more time--and anyone except Max Allan Collins to do the reboot.

[Rise]

Collins was great with Jason and I wouldn't take anyone else.

There was still Killing Joke that happened shortly before DITF (and is honestly a far better story).

TKJ give the joker a depth, but DITF is what made the joker a dangerous villain since he killed a hero who stayed dead for a decade which hardly any comic villain could say the same.

[Osiris-Rex]

Collins was great with Jason and I wouldn't take anyone else.



TKJ give the joker a depth, but DITF is what made the joker a dangerous villain since he killed a hero who stayed dead for a decade which hardly any comic villain could say the same.

Anti-Monitor made the Kara Zor-El version of Supergirl stay dead for 20 years.

[Aahz]

TKJ give the joker a depth, but DITF is what made the joker a dangerous villain since he killed a hero who stayed dead for a decade which hardly any comic villain could say the same.

In TKJ he crippled Barbara. And DITF didn't really made him more dangerous imo. He had put Batman and Robin in Death Traps for Decades at this point, the only difference is that Jason didn't escape this time.

Just look at his first appearances in Batman #1 (were he is way more scary than in DITF imo), there he would have killed Dick if Batman had only arrived a few seconds later.

[Rise]

Anti-Monitor made the Kara Zor-El version of Supergirl stay dead for 20 years.

Yeah, a "version" of her.

In TKJ he crippled Barbara. And DITF didn't really made him more dangerous imo. He had put Batman and Robin in Death Traps for Decades at this point, the only difference is that Jason didn't escape this time.

Just look at his first appearances in Batman #1 (were he is way more scary than in DITF imo), there he would have killed Dick if Batman had only arrived a few seconds later.

Aahz, are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Every single villain put the heros's lives in danger, but only few of them were able to success. Jason not escaping made a big difference and raised Joker's status as a vilain.

[dietrich]

To be fair it's subjective. Killing Jason while brutal didn't make Joker anymore menacing to me. Killing Joke now that was cruel and fucked up. That was hardcore.There are thing's worse than death.

People die in crime and superhero comics and novels. The psychological torture in TKJ is Brutal. With Jason he's rise from the grave gets me more than his death. His living with the knowledge and memory of his death is more cruel to me.

The fact that Jason was already alive and kicking and Joker was already a killer by the time I read DITF might have a factor in my feelings. Those who were reading at the time of publishing might feel differently about that story yet TKJ is still fucked and still gets me. Even the movie scene was hard to watch.

However there is no arguing that DITF did elevate the Joker as a villain. Just for being the Villain who killed Robin. Batman' sidekick and son. That's big.

[Rise]

However there is no arguing that DITF did elevate the Joker as a villain. Just for being the Villain who killed Robin. Batman' sidekick and son. That's big.

And this my point.

I'm not arguing about which story was better or what your feeling about it. I'm saying that he raised the level of "danger" by succeeding in killing a hero and gaining a win over Batman. The joker wouldn't have been the same if DITF didn't happen.

If we are talking about which Batman story is darker and messed up, it's neither TKJ nor DITF. To me, it's Night Cries.

[Aahz]

If we are talking about which Batman story is darker and messed up, it's neither TKJ nor DITF. To me, it's Night Cries.

Night Cries is irrc without the Joker.


When it comes to DITF, yeah he killed a Robin but appart from this the Joker how he is writter there is nothing special and not really different from previos apearences.