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  1. #61
    Spectacular Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    It does add up, though. The characters you mentioned are all "minor" characters; you can have legacy, as long as it doesn't "taint" the big franchises
    Well, I don't think Jaime Reyes, Baz, Cruz and Damien are minor characters. But that aside, I'll both agree and point out you're moving goal posts:

    You're saying it has to be legacy including the 80s/90s legacy characters that replaced the original JLA characters, which is an additional criteria. I get that - there are fans that miss that era, and want to see Wally, Kyle and the rest carry on. I liked that era too.

    But you're right - Didio seems to believe DC's core 5-6 JLAers are better served centered around the original JLAers. That also strikes me as pretty obviously correct at this point, though.*

    *But Didio would happily kill off any of them save Supes-Bats-WW if it guaranteed DC greater market share long term.

  2. #62
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Sure, but the content issues with the reboot can pretty much all be traced to Didio's "vision" for the DCU, one that he was slowing enforcing even before it.
    My point is anyone in his position would have had to do something big in a similar fashion that would have annoyed the same people that were aggravated by the New 52. IOW, the DCU was going, regardless.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post


    This article also points out a lot of the issues DC was having before they pulled the plug on New 52: http://sktchd.com/longform/dc-troubles-longform/
    You're comparing the sales at the end of the New 52 with the sale at the beginning of the New 52. That's a cute card trick, but it's still a trick. The sales never went down to where they were before the New 52. They were still well above that level.

    Actually LOOK at the graph I posted, please. In 2010, DC's sales were just above $200M. In 2011, they were at $225 million. In 2012, they were just above $250M. In 2013, they were above $260M. In 2014, were just above $250M. In 2015, they were at $250M.

    So how in the BLUE HELL did the New 52 collapse DC's sales? On the contrary, the New 52 increased DC's comics sales by more than than $250 million!

    Maybe on Bizarro World that would qualify as a sales collapse, but not here. Jeez. Just give it up, and remind me never to hire you as a financial adviser.
    Last edited by Trey Strain; 08-10-2018 at 03:44 AM.

  4. #64
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    You're comparing the sales at the end of the New 52 with the sale at the beginning of the New 52. That's a cute card trick, but it's still a trick. The sales never went down to where they were before the New 52. They were still well above that level.

    Actually LOOK at the graph I posted, please. In 2010, DC's sales were just above $200M. In 2011, they were at $225 million. In 2012, they were just above $250M. In 2013, they were above $260M. In 2014, were just above $250M. In 2015, they were at $250M.

    So how in the BLUE HELL did the New 52 collapse DC's sales? On the contrary, the New 52 increased DC's comics sales by more than than $250 million!.
    Besides, if it had been a failure, Didio would have been gone long ago and we would have people here ripping apart his successor.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    You're comparing the sales at the end of the New 52 with the sale at the beginning of the New 52. That's a cute card trick, but it's still a trick. The sales never went down to where they were before the New 52. They were still well above that level.
    Its a trick to use the actual detailed data instead of a general, over-broad, and simplistic view? Interesting. I have seen the graphs that you posted. Many times. But here's the thing. Near the end of the period you cite as being the "best" business move DC could have made, we see something very important: DC's decreasing sales, which is what made Rebirth necessary in the first place. Again, why was Rebirth necessary if the New 52 was doing so well? And again, as pointed out, only about HALF of DC's sales by the time Rebirth rolled around were attributable to their regular titles. Who knows where they would have been if they had just been selling New 52 titles. Probably nowhere near that level.

    Also what I see during this period is Marvel taking off significantly. You say that the New 52 basically helped DC reach unprecedented heights? Well, how does that explain Marvel's meteoric rise? It doesn't. What does explain it is that the industry itself was growing.

    And furthermore, here is a chart showcasing the marketshares of the top publishers:



    So, in a time when the market is apparently on the rise, Marvel and Image appear to be benefitting significantly. Meanwhile, DC by 2015 appears to be in dire straits, with significantly less marketshare than what it had in years preceding the reboot. And again, this is in an era where DC was relying heavily on NON-regular titles to even get its sales up to where they were.

    Pair that with the fact that several of the New 52/DCYou titles faced severe drop-offs in sales...




    ...and yes, there's a problem. One that needed to be addressed.

    And that's the thing: DC did address it. Your argument may hold up if the New 52 was still going on, but...its not anymore. DC pulled the plug on it. They have spent the last two years essentially undoing it. So, again, if the New 52 was this gigantic boon to DC Comics, then why did they feel the need to literally rip it to shreds?

  6. #66
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    You're saying it has to be legacy including the 80s/90s legacy characters that replaced the original JLA characters, which is an additional criteria. I get that - there are fans that miss that era, and want to see Wally, Kyle and the rest carry on. I liked that era too.
    Not exactly, but I guess you understood that. But yeah, most people that say "Didio hates legacy" are usually referring to the fact that he reversed successful and viable characters to previous versions for no better reason than those fitting his preferences. And that he was particularly crappy about it in some cases.

    MAYBE some people are talking about the new 52 - which kept some legacy versions, but obliterated the concept - but that's not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    My point is anyone in his position would have had to do something big in a similar fashion that would have annoyed the same people that were aggravated by the New 52. IOW, the DCU was going, regardless.
    Oh, I don't care. What I'm saying is that we can blame the overall quality of the reboot on Didio's vision. The fact that there was a reboot, in itself, I'm indiferent about.
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  7. #67
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Oh, I don't care. What I'm saying is that we can blame the overall quality of the reboot on Didio's vision. The fact that there was a reboot, in itself, I'm indiferent about.
    I understand, BD, but for most people who disliked the New 52, they were going to dislike any reboot. They were married to the DCU and weren't going to accept any substitute.
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  8. #68
    Incredible Member RepHope's Avatar
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    From what I understand, the real failure was DC You. They made a lot of big changes to the core (depowered Supes, Gordon Bats, new costume for Wondy) and none of those changes were really embraced. But the New 52 was a success at the start, and Rebirth did nothing to change DC’s sales. It changes the perception of DC’s comics, but sales wise it provided only a short term boost. This is coming from someone who enjoyed Rebirth more than New 52 overall.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Its a trick to use the actual detailed data instead of a general, over-broad, and simplistic view? Interesting. I have seen the graphs that you posted. Many times. But here's the thing. Near the end of the period you cite as being the "best" business move DC could have made, we see something very important: DC's decreasing sales, which is what made Rebirth necessary in the first place. Again, why was Rebirth necessary if the New 52 was doing so well? And again, as pointed out, only about HALF of DC's sales by the time Rebirth rolled around were attributable to their regular titles. Who knows where they would have been if they had just been selling New 52 titles. Probably nowhere near that level.

    Also what I see during this period is Marvel taking off significantly. You say that the New 52 basically helped DC reach unprecedented heights? Well, how does that explain Marvel's meteoric rise? It doesn't. What does explain it is that the industry itself was growing.

    And furthermore, here is a chart showcasing the marketshares of the top publishers:



    So, in a time when the market is apparently on the rise, Marvel and Image appear to be benefitting significantly. Meanwhile, DC by 2015 appears to be in dire straits, with significantly less marketshare than what it had in years preceding the reboot. And again, this is in an era where DC was relying heavily on NON-regular titles to even get its sales up to where they were.

    Pair that with the fact that several of the New 52/DCYou titles faced severe drop-offs in sales...




    ...and yes, there's a problem. One that needed to be addressed.

    And that's the thing: DC did address it. Your argument may hold up if the New 52 was still going on, but...its not anymore. DC pulled the plug on it. They have spent the last two years essentially undoing it. So, again, if the New 52 was this gigantic boon to DC Comics, then why did they feel the need to literally rip it to shreds?
    Sir, once again, you didn't bother to look at the graph I provided. It clearly explained why Marvel "took off."

    Marvel's sales jumped because it started publishing Star Wars.

    That had noting to do with the New 52.

    DC was not in "dire straits" in 2015. Its comics sales were $50M a year higher than they were in 2011. Marvel just benefited from Disney's acquisition of Star Wars, that's all.

    Click on this and LOOK AT IT! It's not complicated. You can grasp it.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r7e-0fPpnB...5_withnews.png

    I assure you that if whatever company you work for did something that increased its sales by $250 million over four years, and you kept walking into your CEO's office and ragging on him about doing it, he would fire you and give you a bad reference.

    You're gloating that Marvel "pulled the plug" on the New 52. No, they just launched a similar promotion -- one that was not nearly as successful, because the sales increase from Rebirth was gone after two years.

    Keep on saying that DC screwed up with a promotion that made it $250M, and maybe someday someone will believe it. But probably not.
    Last edited by Trey Strain; 08-11-2018 at 04:17 AM.

  10. #70
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    This is not your opinion vs. my opinion. This is your opinion vs. the numbers. And the numbers will win that fight every time, because it's not about you.

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