Dick Grayson's new status quo - "permanent," or short-term?

[Badou]

Why do you say that?

Yeah, I was curious about that - "Grayson" is Dick's best chance for an Arrow, Flash or Constantine style TV series that he's ever had. And if they do another Batman cartoon with him as Robin, it's not massively harder to transition him into "Agent Of Spyral" than it is into Nightwing.

Maybe ""easy" wasn't the right word. Probably "limited" works better. I sort of feel Nightwing is more independent and allows for more potential adaptations. The transition from Robin to Nightwing/Titans Leader allows him room to grow outside of Batman and Gotham. He has a larger scope in terms of potential exposure from cartoons, solo animated movies, tv shows or maybe even large films. Grayson sort of only works in a spy TV show and so much of it is dependent and runs through Batman to work, which can be limiting as I don't think they would put Batman on TV again in a Arrow/Flash style show. So the character awkwardly doesn't fit in anywhere.

The Circus idea was a good one, just not executed to well especially because of Death of the Family. DC didn't really give Higgins enough time to work with what little he actually had. I kinda fear that DC might try to move Agent Dick Grayson over to other media and that would mean butcher the character even more, like taking away the Batman connection.

I never cared a whole lot for the circus. It works well in small stories or when they want to have Dick return to what is the closest thing he has to a home. It's sort of his safe haven, but building story arcs and focusing on it so much ruins that aspect and it falls apart. It should be his Smallville rather than turning it into his Gotham where he is miserable and everything is falling apart there.

[Dzetoun]

Maybe ""easy" wasn't the right word. Probably "limited" works better. I sort of feel Nightwing is more independent and allows for more potential adaptations. The transition from Robin to Nightwing/Titans Leader allows him room to grow outside of Batman and Gotham. He has a larger scope in terms of potential exposure from cartoons, solo animated movies, tv shows or maybe even large films. Grayson sort of only works in a spy TV show and so much of it is dependent and runs through Batman to work, which can be limiting as I don't think they would put Bat man on TV again in a Arrow/Flash style show. So the character awkwardly doesn't fit in anywhere.

But it just didn't work out like that. After all, is Nightwing really independent of Batman? The origin of the character was in reaction to the Bat's shadow, and Dick attempted to establish himself in a position where the solo cartoons and TV shows and movies would come. But they never did. The resonance with Batman is too strong, the shadow too deep. In the end, he was and remained a Batman variant.

Dick Grayson, super spy, however, is not a Batman variant, however strong Dick's personal ties to Bruce might be. This is something different, something rare in the DCU. As such, it has potential Nightwing simply cannot boast. Yes, the transition has been a bungled mess. Yes, parts of it might not work. Personally, I am dubious as to whether Seeley and King can make the "pretending to be dead" plotline a narrative success -- but then, that's why they get royalty checks and I don't. But I agree with what Alexander Luthor said a while back: in ten years, after all the present mess has been forgotten, this will likely be remembered as a brilliant strategic move.

With regard specifically to adapting Grayson to TV or movies, sure there are challenges. But every property has its challenges, and super spies have built-in advantages. The present arc probably is too dependent on Batman to be adapted directly, I agree. But very few comic arcs, or literary properties of any type, have ever transitioned to other media without major changes, and there is no reason a Grayson TV show, for instance, would have to use any of the comic arcs at all.

And meanwhile, Tom King announced last night that TV Guide has done a full-length article on Grayson for their Comic Con edition, including it right after their latest spread on The Vampire Diaries. That is something Dick Grayson probably hasn't seen in a long time, and Nightwing probably never saw.

GRAYSON%20TV%20Guide.jpg

[dropkickjake]

With regard specifically to adapting Grayson to TV or movies, sure there are challenges. But every property has its challenges, and super spies have built-in advantages. The present arc probably is too dependent on Batman to be adapted directly, I agree. But very few comic arcs, or literary properties of any type, have ever transitioned to other media without major changes, and there is no reason a Grayson TV show, for instance, would have to use any of the comic arcs at all.

While it's true that any Grayson TV show or movie series needn't base themselves off any particular story arc, but rather the premise, I don't even think this current set-up is too dependent on Bruce at all. All that would really need to remain intact is that Dick lives in a universe populated by other heroes and that Spyral is searching for their identities. The only thing I'd change would be to have Dick find out about it on his own (not Batman) and decide himself to fake his death and infiltrate them. No need for the publicly known identity or humiliation at the hands of the Crime Syndicate. His history as Batman's pupil can be kept or discarded depending on the universe in which it was set.

Also, I'd probably have made that change in the comics as well, but whats done is done.

[gwangung]

While it's true that any Grayson TV show or movie series needn't base themselves off any particular story arc, but rather the premise, I don't even think this current set-up is too dependent on Bruce at all. All that would really need to remain intact is that Dick lives in a universe populated by other heroes and that Spyral is searching for their identities. The only thing I'd change would be to have Dick find out about it on his own (not Batman) and decide himself to fake his death and infiltrate them. No need for the publicly known identity or humiliation at the hands of the Crime Syndicate. His history as Batman's pupil can be kept or discarded depending on the universe in which it was set.

Also, I'd probably have made that change in the comics as well, but whats done is done.

Yup, that works quite well, too.

All these civilian agencies have agendas for super-powered beings, manipulating from the shadows. Why not have someone on the heroes' side in the shadows, doing some manipulation of their own?

[Dzetoun]

While it's true that any Grayson TV show or movie series needn't base themselves off any particular story arc, but rather the premise, I don't even think this current set-up is too dependent on Bruce at all. All that would really need to remain intact is that Dick lives in a universe populated by other heroes and that Spyral is searching for their identities. The only thing I'd change would be to have Dick find out about it on his own (not Batman) and decide himself to fake his death and infiltrate them. No need for the publicly known identity or humiliation at the hands of the Crime Syndicate. His history as Batman's pupil can be kept or discarded depending on the universe in which it was set.

Also, I'd probably have made that change in the comics as well, but whats done is done.

I can see strong arguments both for and against such an approach, but it would be more elegant and simple than what they did. Given that so much of what people have objected to concerning the transition seems to have come from serious miscommunication and awful timing, a simpler setup might work better.

[byrd156]

"Criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot, so let me take little boys into my cave and dress them in tiny shorts to fight crime." Yeah, that costume was always ridiculous.

It's still a classic costume.

[byrd156]

[QUOTE=Dzetoun;342803]But it just didn't work out like that. After all, is Nightwing really independent of Batman? The origin of the character was in reaction to the Bat's shadow, and Dick attempted to establish himself in a position where the solo cartoons and TV shows and movies would come. But they never did. The resonance with Batman is too strong, the shadow too deep. In the end, he was and remained a Batman variant.

I don't get why people keep saying Nightwing is just a shadow of Batman. How was Dick's origin a reaction? Dick was created as a character for kids to connect with, that they maybe couldn't be Batman but they could be Robin. Dick had many tv show and movie appearances and would've had more if it wasn't for the Bat-embargo. Nightwing has had two major tv show outings in recent times with New adventures in late 90s and Young Justice last year. Dick is only ever viewed as a shadow when people bring up Batman. People don't talk about how much of a shadow and variant he is when he is with the Titans, Outsiders, JL, or pretty much everything else that isn't directly tied to the Batman line.

What about Jason, Tim, Barbara, Cassie, Stephanie, Damien? They are part of a family, just like Dick. Would you sit there and call all these characters, just "variants" of Batman?

tumblr_n8y30b8aNw1td6is5o2_500.jpg

[Badou]

But it just didn't work out like that. After all, is Nightwing really independent of Batman? The origin of the character was in reaction to the Bat's shadow, and Dick attempted to establish himself in a position where the solo cartoons and TV shows and movies would come. But they never did. The resonance with Batman is too strong, the shadow too deep. In the end, he was and remained a Batman variant.

Dick Grayson, super spy, however, is not a Batman variant, however strong Dick's personal ties to Bruce might be. This is something different, something rare in the DCU. As such, it has potential Nightwing simply cannot boast. Yes, the transition has been a bungled mess. Yes, parts of it might not work. Personally, I am dubious as to whether Seeley and King can make the "pretending to be dead" plotline a narrative success -- but then, that's why they get royalty checks and I don't. But I agree with what Alexander Luthor said a while back: in ten years, after all the present mess has been forgotten, this will likely be remembered as a brilliant strategic move.

With regard specifically to adapting Grayson to TV or movies, sure there are challenges. But every property has its challenges, and super spies have built-in advantages. The present arc probably is too dependent on Batman to be adapted directly, I agree. But very few comic arcs, or literary properties of any type, have ever transitioned to other media without major changes, and there is no reason a Grayson TV show, for instance, would have to use any of the comic arcs at all.

And meanwhile, Tom King announced last night that TV Guide has done a full-length article on Grayson for their Comic Con edition, including it right after their latest spread on The Vampire Diaries. That is something Dick Grayson probably hasn't seen in a long time, and Nightwing probably never saw.

I've always said that the character would have worked a lot better if they had made him more of a Spider-man variant, but aside from his brief stint as a cop they could never give him a personal life anyone gave a **** about. Shame they never really gave the student angle much of a shot.

Anyway, like I said in my previous post, Grayson is limited. The concept really only works in a live action TV show, but Nightwing can work in animated series, animated movies, feature films, games, and TV shows. I mean the Teen Titans and Young Justice shows both showed him move to Nightwing without having to rely on Batman for it. They aren't going to have him go from Robin to Grayson, but probably Robin to Nightwing to Grayson. So it is another step they have to add it.

Though the biggest thing is that Grayson isn't a superhero like Nightwing. That is the biggest challenge. Regardless of how successful Grayson is it isn't as marketable as a superhero name and costume. I mean look at the recent Arkham Knight DLC. It isn't Harleen Frances Quinzel or Jason Todd DLC but Harley Quinn and Red Hood and you can guarantee that people are going to buy figures of their new design, cosplay as it, and so on. Dick Grayson DLC doesn't really have the same kind of ring to it. Another recent example is how Batgirl's new costume made the internet explode. Grayson doesn't have a costume and he doesn't really have anything that makes him stand out, which can hurt in marketing. I mean the biggest reason for superhero names and costumes is for marketing and merchandise, and without those things it can limit a character's exposure. It's why they wanted to put that G on his chest to try and give him something people could recognize a little. Since if you showed a few pages of Grayson to someone not following the book they wouldn't really know who it was supposed to be unless they are told.

At the same time I am not trying to say he should go back to Nightwing despite what I said above. In the New 52 that is a dead end identity that has been gutted of everything that made the identity work. There is no point going back to it, but taking a step back from the New 52 and looking at a larger picture Grayson limits the character's exposure over time I feel. He's just a spy working for Batman rather than his own hero leading his own superhero teams and so on, but I get that it is a tricky situation overall.

[Dzetoun]

What about Jason, Tim, Barbara, Cassie, Stephanie, Damien? They are part of a family, just like Dick. Would you sit there and call all these characters, just "variants" of Batman

Yes, pretty much. Like it or not, Batman is simply the archetype from which they are all quite obviously derived. Jason has, to an extent, moved beyond that, but it took some fairly dramatic developments. Oracle also managed it in the old continuity, but once again it took drastic storylines to get her there. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not every character needs to stand on their own and aspire to independent status. But if a character does so aspire, and many people over the years have said that Dick should make a move for A-list status, then you can't do it inside Bruce's shadow as a hero, whatever the personal relationship the characters may have.

[Claude]

Yes, pretty much. Like it or not, Batman is simply the archetype from which they are all quite obviously derived. Jason has, to an extent, moved beyond that, but it took some fairly dramatic developments. Oracle also managed it in the old continuity, but once again it took drastic storylines to get her there. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not every character needs to stand on their own and aspire to independent status. But if a character does so aspire, and many people over the years have said that Dick should make a move for A-list status, then you can't do it inside Bruce's shadow as a hero, whatever the personal relationship the characters may have.

Yeah. You put Batman and Nightwing in a room together, you which one's the Boss. Which one's the older, wiser, better-at-this-game one. And whatever the reader might personally think, and no matter how much the writer lets Nightwing get his points in, when Nightwing and Batman are in the same room? It's Batman's Room.

Put Batman in a room with Dick Grayson Of Spyral? Right away, you have two different skillsets and perspectives and styles and looks. Each different enough that one isn't "better" than the other.

[Badou]

Yeah. You put Batman and Nightwing in a room together, you which one's the Boss. Which one's the older, wiser, better-at-this-game one. And whatever the reader might personally think, and no matter how much the writer lets Nightwing get his points in, when Nightwing and Batman are in the same room? It's Batman's Room.

Put Batman in a room with Dick Grayson Of Spyral? Right away, you have two different skillsets and perspectives and styles and looks. Each different enough that one isn't "better" than the other.

I don't really see how either of those is that different. Batman is the boss in both situations. Just Dick isn't in a costume in one of them.

[Claude]

I don't really see how either of those is that different. Batman is the boss in both situations. Just Dick isn't in a costume in one of them.

In one of them, Dick has the resources of entire organisation at his disposal, coupled with the skills and experience in non-vigilante activities. In the other, Dick's doing the exact some job as Batman less well, and uses equipment bought with Bruce's money.

[dropkickjake]

I've always said that the character would have worked a lot better if they had made him more of a Spider-man variant, but aside from his brief stint as a cop they could never give him a personal life anyone gave a **** about. Shame they never really gave the student angle much of a shot.

I know I say this every time you mention it, but YES PLEASE. Dick Grayson plus neon Bludhaven (or Amusement Mile?), plus college student = all my money. Love triangle between a reworked Lori Elton and Dick's RA Clancy? I'm down. Reinvention of classic foes such as Lady Vic, Scar, MAZE (yeah, went way back for those two), maybe even blockbuster and/or torque. I'd eat that crap up, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And 4th Meal!

Anyway, like I said in my previous post, Grayson is limited. The concept really only works in a live action TV show, but Nightwing can work in animated series, animated movies, feature films, games, and TV shows. I mean the Teen Titans and Young Justice shows both showed him move to Nightwing without having to rely on Batman for it. They aren't going to have him go from Robin to Grayson, but probably Robin to Nightwing to Grayson. So it is another step they have to add it.

Here, though, I have to disagree with you. The Marvel movies have made the idea of spies in a superhero world much more mainstream and accessible. Grayson could easily work in any of these mediums, save (perhaps) an animated series. And in that medium, I could see Spy Grayson succeed in a similar manner as Nightwing/Robin Grayson did: either as a supporting character or as a member of an ensemble. Nightwing never headlined an animated series either, unfortunately.

Though the biggest thing is that Grayson isn't a superhero like Nightwing. That is the biggest challenge. Regardless of how successful Grayson is it isn't as marketable as a superhero name and costume. I mean look at the recent Arkham Knight DLC. It isn't Harleen Frances Quinzel or Jason Todd DLC but Harley Quinn and Red Hood and you can guarantee that people are going to buy figures of their new design, cosplay as it, and so on. Dick Grayson DLC doesn't really have the same kind of ring to it. Another recent example is how Batgirl's new costume made the internet explode. Grayson doesn't have a costume and he doesn't really have anything that makes him stand out, which can hurt in marketing. I mean the biggest reason for superhero names and costumes is for marketing and merchandise, and without those things it can limit a character's exposure. It's why they wanted to put that G on his chest to try and give him something people could recognize a little. Since if you showed a few pages of Grayson to someone not following the book they wouldn't really know who it was supposed to be unless they are told.

I think that most of this could be said of Nightwing right after his switch from Robin. Dick's current look, that specific underarmor type shirt, the sneakers, the chest straps and the "G" caribeener, could (in time) become as recognizable as Discowing or Fingerstipes or shortpants. I'll cede the argument that "Grayson" may not sound as cool as "Nightwing," but it may be more recognizable.

At the same time I am not trying to say he should go back to Nightwing despite what I said above. In the New 52 that is a dead end identity that has been gutted of everything that made the identity work. There is no point going back to it, but taking a step back from the New 52 and looking at a larger picture Grayson limits the character's exposure over time I feel. He's just a spy working for Batman rather than his own hero leading his own superhero teams and so on, but I get that it is a tricky situation overall.

I do think that after this first "season," of Grayson, we may see Dick distanced from Batman a bit and not just being his mole.

[byrd156]

Yeah. You put Batman and Nightwing in a room together, you which one's the Boss. Which one's the older, wiser, better-at-this-game one. And whatever the reader might personally think, and no matter how much the writer lets Nightwing get his points in, when Nightwing and Batman are in the same room? It's Batman's Room.

Put Batman in a room with Dick Grayson Of Spyral? Right away, you have two different skillsets and perspectives and styles and looks. Each different enough that one isn't "better" than the other.

They have pretty much the same skill sets since Batman trained Dick. The perspective is the same because Dick is still a hero at heart, just working for a spy agency. Finally the looks is just someone in costume and one that isn't, its not really that different.

That last line doesn't make any sense. Nightwing and Dick Grayson are still both Dick Grayson. Doesn't matter whether or not he is Robin, Nightwing, spy, or Batman.
If you put Batman and Superman in the same room people would talk about who is better, it doesn't matter if they are similar or different.

[byrd156]

In one of them, Dick has the resources of entire organisation at his disposal, coupled with the skills and experience in non-vigilante activities. In the other, Dick's doing the exact some job as Batman less well, and uses equipment bought with Bruce's money.

Being a spy and a Vigilante trained by Batman isn't very different, its really just a title change. Dick as Nightwing, he isn't trying to be Batman that's the whole point of Nightwing. He is trying to be his own hero and do things his own way.